Decline of the signature?

[Smitty37]

Teaching - the hardest profession that everyone thinks that they can do.

Nah....those who can do - those who can't teach.:biggrin::biggrin:

I have respect for teachers, two of my daughters are now high school principals but were teachers, one of my sisters was a teacher, three of my nieces are or were teachers (a couple are retired). I think, the same as those in almost any profession, teachers want to do a good job

That being said, I have long felt that the problems we (USA) have in our education system can be traced to leaving education too much in the hands of educators.

Teachers complain that schools are administered badly, a major reason that teachers leave the profession - yet the administrators are always (in the USA no one becomes a principal without having been a class room teacher)people who at one time were themselves class room teachers.

Teachers complain about being forced to "teach to the standardized tests", another major cause of teachers leaving the profession - yet the programs causing that were in large part developed by people who at one time or another were class room teachers themselves and traded their teaching certificate for a bureaucrat's hat Washington. The latest 'miracle' fix for education is called "common core" replacing "No Child Left Behind" which replaced something else.

Teachers complain about boards of education, yet the boards I am most familiar with always had at least one and ofter several members who were either active or retired teachers on them.

Virtually all of the problems that teachers themselves identify as "hurting" education were developed by educators.

Someone once said something like 'war is too important to leave in the hands of the generals'. I personally think education is too important to leave in the hands of educators. Which we have done.

Smitty,
then you should know that to become an administrator, in Oregon, at least, one only has to have 3 years in the classroom to move on, plus doing an internship of one year in administration. Then a number years as a vice-principal.

Now, I have to ask, with a Teaching Degree and 3 years teaching experience,(it usually takes about 10 years to become an effective teacher), where in this does it say that a person has enough experience and knowledge to begin to develop curriculum, let alone be a manager of teachers?

Those who aspire to become principals know they must endure 3 years in the classroom. Those who aspire to become classroom teachers learn as much about their chosen discipline to become more effective teachers.

Moreover, and here is where I have almost always gotten into trouble(even with my wife), is that to become a teacher one does not have to have an intellectual academic degree. An academic Master's Degree is called a Master's of Education Degree for educators.

Most have entered into Teacher Education fresh out of high school. By the time they are 21 -23 they are teaching kids in the classroom. Experience? Are you serious! Some of these people go on to start their career in administration by the time they are 25-30. Again, Experience? Are you serious!

Yes, these are the ones who have "hurt" education, in part. Encourage more mature, experienced teachers to move into education. Also encourage mature folks who have been in the every day workplace and retired military to become teachers.

Thats not the only answer, just one.

IMHO Russ

I can't speak to that, I've never been to Oregon.

But, in NY where I had 6 children attend public schools over a 21 year time frame I never heard of a classroom teacher moving into administration in anything like to 3 years - it took most longer than that to get the additional required course work, and all that I knew personally had their Masters Degree before they were considered.

I believe that most of the criteria needed to become administrators in education was also developed by educators and is at least partly fueled by "teachers" who want that particular path of advancement. I would also recognize that there is no real path of advancement for good classroom teachers.

I have held for years that this is one of the most damaging aspects of education in this country. One of my daughters went to a state university college specializing in preparing teachers and took a typical 'education' (early childhood in her case) curriculum. She had any number of "how to teach xyz" but no real academic prep for anything. My other daughter got her BS in Poli Sci and she had to take several of the "how to" courses to get her certificate. When she taught History she at least knew the subject she was teaching.

My opinion is that most of our "teacher's colleges" have two major factors that contribute to the problem first they are nearly always have the 2nd lowest standards for admission regardless of how you calculate the standards. Second, they don't require that educators take an academic major that would challenge them allowing the milksop "education" degrees. That isn't the fault of teachers.

 

[StephenM]

Personally, I think that handwriting will make a comeback as tablets in the classroom become more prevalent. Kids will be taking notes on the tablet and using a OCR program to convert them to text. If the computer can't read the handwriting, the notes will be gibberish.

 

[Smitty37]

Personally, I think that handwriting will make a comeback as tablets in the classroom become more prevalent. Kids will be taking notes on the tablet and using a OCR program to convert them to text. If the computer can't read the handwriting, the notes will be gibberish.

They will print...one of my many daughters is a CPA with a Master's Degree and she can barely write her name, she prints everything but her signature.

 

[Haynie]

You said

Nah....those who can do - those who can't teach.:biggrin::biggrin:

And those who can't teach become administrators. IMO every administrator should be required to go back into the classroom for two years, for every three years they are an administrator. They get out of touch, lose direction, sell out. If you want to make a poor teacher a GREAT teacher, make them an administrator. They will tell you how great they were.

I have respect for teachers,

Not seeing it

two of my daughters are now high school principals but were teachers, one of my sisters was a teacher, three of my nieces are or were teachers (a couple are retired).

So, what you are saying is you have no experience in the classroom what so ever but you feel qualified to comment based on familial relationships. My brother designs rockets. I in no way feel qualified to comment on his work, and he in no way feels qualified to comment on mine.

I think, the same as those in almost any profession, teachers want to do a good job

That being said, I have long felt that the problems we (USA) have in our education system can be traced to leaving education too much in the hands of educators.

Education is not in the hands of educators. It is in the hands of state governments, who are by no means educators.

Teachers complain that schools are administered badly, a major reason that teachers leave the profession - yet the administrators are always (in the USA no one becomes a principal without having been a class room teacher)people who at one time were themselves class room teachers.

Minimum requirement for most states is 3 years in the classroom. I have worked for some who were never in the classroom. Would you like to work for someone who has only three years experience?

Teachers complain about being forced to "teach to the standardized tests", another major cause of teachers leaving the profession - yet the programs causing that were in large part developed by people who at one time or another were class room teachers themselves and traded their teaching certificate for a bureaucrat's hat Washington. The latest 'miracle' fix for education is called "common core" replacing "No Child Left Behind" which replaced something else.

You might want to research where the Common Core came from. By the way the latest incarnation of NCLB is Race to the top.

Teachers complain about boards of education, yet the boards I am most familiar with always had at least one and ofter several members who were either active or retired teachers on them.

My experience with boards of education and teachers who join them is they have an ax to grind. Have not met one yet who who didn't. I have never heard a teacher complain about board members aside from their idotic decisions. Certainly never met one who left because of the board.

Virtually all of the problems that teachers themselves identify as "hurting" education were developed by educators.

Nope, it is the people who have never stepped foot in a classroom as a teacher, but know teachers, or are related to teachers who armchair this profession when in reality they know absolutely nothing about the profession.

Someone once said something like 'war is too important to leave in the hands of the generals'. I personally think education is too important to leave in the hands of educators. Which we have done.

We have already taken education from the educators. It is and has pretty much always been in the hands of state bureaucrats. In the past the state let the teachers teach, with no oversite. In some ways it was good, in some ways it was bad. Now we have people who might know a teacher, or be related to a teacher, or graduated from high school in the deep dark past and are now "experts" in education wanting to take all of the decisions from the educators.

The major cause of teachers leaving the profession is pay, but that is another argument altogether.

 

[Smitty37]

You said

Nah....those who can do - those who can't teach.:biggrin::biggrin:

And those who can't teach become administrators. IMO every administrator should be required to go back into the classroom for two years, for every three years they are an administrator. They get out of touch, lose direction, sell out. If you want to make a poor teacher a GREAT teacher, make them an administrator. They will tell you how great they were.

I have respect for teachers,

Not seeing it

two of my daughters are now high school principals but were teachers, one of my sisters was a teacher, three of my nieces are or were teachers (a couple are retired).

So, what you are saying is you have no experience in the classroom what so ever but you feel qualified to comment based on familial relationships. My brother designs rockets. I in no way feel qualified to comment on his work, and he in no way feels qualified to comment on mine.

I think, the same as those in almost any profession, teachers want to do a good job

That being said, I have long felt that the problems we (USA) have in our education system can be traced to leaving education too much in the hands of educators.

Education is not in the hands of educators. It is in the hands of state governments, who are by no means educators.

Teachers complain that schools are administered badly, a major reason that teachers leave the profession - yet the administrators are always (in the USA no one becomes a principal without having been a class room teacher)people who at one time were themselves class room teachers.

Minimum requirement for most states is 3 years in the classroom. I have worked for some who were never in the classroom. Would you like to work for someone who has only three years experience?

Teachers complain about being forced to "teach to the standardized tests", another major cause of teachers leaving the profession - yet the programs causing that were in large part developed by people who at one time or another were class room teachers themselves and traded their teaching certificate for a bureaucrat's hat Washington. The latest 'miracle' fix for education is called "common core" replacing "No Child Left Behind" which replaced something else.

You might want to research where the Common Core came from. By the way the latest incarnation of NCLB is Race to the top.

Teachers complain about boards of education, yet the boards I am most familiar with always had at least one and ofter several members who were either active or retired teachers on them.

My experience with boards of education and teachers who join them is they have an ax to grind. Have not met one yet who who didn't. I have never heard a teacher complain about board members aside from their idotic decisions. Certainly never met one who left because of the board.

Virtually all of the problems that teachers themselves identify as "hurting" education were developed by educators.

Nope, it is the people who have never stepped foot in a classroom as a teacher, but know teachers, or are related to teachers who armchair this profession when in reality they know absolutely nothing about the profession.

Someone once said something like 'war is too important to leave in the hands of the generals'. I personally think education is too important to leave in the hands of educators. Which we have done.

We have already taken education from the educators. It is and has pretty much always been in the hands of state bureaucrats. In the past the state let the teachers teach, with no oversite. In some ways it was good, in some ways it was bad. Now we have people who might know a teacher, or be related to a teacher, or graduated from high school in the deep dark past and are now "experts" in education wanting to take all of the decisions from the educators.

The major cause of teachers leaving the profession is pay, but that is another argument altogether.

No I did not say that, you did. I made no comments regarding classroom teachers. My comment was that the administrators were at one time themselves teachers. I didn't say anything about teaching.

Give me an example of what you mean other than to make a personal attack? You make a fairly bold statement...where did I second guess your profession....in fact I said very little about your profession.

I stated what teachers complain about and trust me you don't have to be a teacher to hear teachers complain. Right now several times a week it seems I hear teachers (nd administrators" complaining about the "common core" and "teaching to the standardized tests". Read your own post and you have an example of teachers complaining about administrators.

Sorry but that dog won't hunt, teacher unions (NEA and AFT) are among the largest, strongest richest and most political in the country and almost nothing is done in education without union support. The push for 'common nationwide standards' (which by the way, I do not think is the best approach to solving our problems) is about the only thing I see right now that they might oppose. Educators certainly have a strong voice in what's happening with education. I wonder why you feel the need to try to make everything personal?

Just as one does not have to be a doctor to know a good doctor when they see one - one does not have to be a classroom teacher to know a good one when they see one.

I watched my six children progress from kindergarten to high school graduation and I knew who the good teachers were and which ones should have found a different profession.

I might not know how to teach math but I sure will be able to tell if students who have taken a math class learned what they were supposed to learn.

Where wo would probably agree is I don't believe making a teacher get a Masters Degree will make them any better a teacher.

I've seen that argument but there are studies that indicate that other factors are bigger causes with working conditions being a big one, and "burn out" being another - neither of those can be fixed by higher pay. North Carolina runs a study each year listing the number of teachers who leave their current job and their reason for leaving. Salary was not the biggest contributor in any of the years I looked at.

I have also seen since the early 1960s claims that every education problem could be fixed by smaller class sizes and higher pay for teachers (to attract better qualified people to teaching). To a large degree I think that has been tried (in at least some states) and does not seem to have worked.

 

[Carl Fisher]

I guess this thread has taken a left turn. Sorry if I hit a nerve with anyone but it was just general musings about how poor my own kids handwriting has become that they can't even sign their names.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

This thread has gotten way off course, and it is becoming a bit caustic, so I'm going to lock it.

Andrew
assistant moderator