Custom threading... Teach me.

[Skye]

Ok, it's not going to be in the immediate future but I want to get into making my own threads for caps and pen like so:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39233

My fav so far is the all black one, no clip. Can't find the thread now though.

Anyhow, I've got no clue how threading works. So, someone give me the gist of it, in real simple terms. Just curious if it's something I'll even be able to get into in time or if it's just over my head and beyond my potential hardware.

 

[Daniel]

Skye, I will not try to go into any detail about threading. I will leave that to those that have actually made pens that required threading for any reason. I do want to point out that you might want to keep an eye on the Tap and Die group buy. I just opened it up for comments on these tools, what they are used for, and examples fo pens they have made that required these sort of tools. You might see some info in that thread that is relevant to your search.

Now for everyone else reading this thread. Please hop on over and help get the conversation started on the use of tools like the Tap and Die set and other tools needed in Advanced Pen Making.

 

[Russianwolf]

I have the tooling on it's way to my house right now for this.

I've done this in metal before, but not plastics or wood so bare with me.

The pen you linked to has three operations.
1) tap the M10x1 hole to hold the nib section.
2) tap the cap at 1/2x20 (I think he said)
3) die the body to match the cap's 1/2x20

The hard part of all this is just making sure you get things lined up so they go together square.

To use the tap, you drill a hole that's slightly undersized, then use the tap by hand to make the threads. (The M10x1 for example needs a hole about 8.5mm in diameter)

For the Die, you turn a tennon to the size indicated on the tool and use the die by hand to make the threads on that section. (the 1/2x20 for example needs a tennon right at 1/2 inch in diameter)

There is a tool that you can attach them to your lathe to help in keeping things square.

Not overly complicated.

 

[Daniel]

Mike, When using the tools on the lathe the lathes power is not used correct?

 

[Russianwolf]

Mike, When using the tools on the lathe the lathes power is not used correct?

Yes, the lathe is only used to keep things square. Everything is powered by hand.

 

[Skye]

Ah, well that's not as hard as I thought, but I'm sure harder than it sounds!

I don't know if I'm ready to bite that bullet yet, but I'll have to check into that group buy to get an idea what people are paying for what. I really need to spend some bread in some more elementary places (sharpening system for instance) before I buy anything that I would consider a 'toy'.

The one that really got me going was that all black one. If anyone can remember which one that was, I need to get a copy of that image for later on.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Russianwolf]

Ah, well that's not as hard as I thought, but I'm sure harder than it sounds!

I don't know if I'm ready to bite that bullet yet, but I'll have to check into that group buy to get an idea what people are paying for what. I really need to spend some bread in some more elementary places (sharpening system for instance) before I buy anything that I would consider a 'toy'.

The one that really got me going was that all black one. If anyone can remember which one that was, I need to get a copy of that image for later on.

Thanks for the info!

Steve, if you want to play at it without much cost, just use single start taps and dies. I bought a 80 piece (17 sizes) set for less than $30. The orange pen you linked to uses single start threads, not the expensive multistart units.

 

[Skye]

Sweet, point me towards one of those kits online and I'll have to ask Santa for that. I can live with mismatched grain for the time being.

Who's Steve? lol

 

[Skye]

Ah, where they are: http://edisonpen.com/page.cfm/Pearl-Main-Page

 

[pipecrafter]

If you have a Harbor Freight in your area, see what they have available. I picked up a big set that goes from #4-40 to 1/2"-20 for about $25. I wouldn't try to use it on hardened steel, but it works great for softer metals and plastics. You can also get a metric set for about the same price - but, oddly enough, it doesn't include M10-1mm. You can get that at McMaster-Carr or Enco for a few dollars.

I actually use one of my lathes to thread with taps too - but I use it under power. I just engage the back gears so that the the spindle is turning at the ridiculously low speed of 41RPM and keep an eye on it. I haven't figured out how to rig a die on it for strange threads I don't have the change gears for yet. One of these days I'll either get that sorted, or come across all the change gears to round out my set.

 

[Daniel]

Skye, The triple start tap and die is not necessary, It does add a feature to how the cap screws on that even I notice though. but with the expense I would recommend anyone play around with standard taps and dies first. When you are ready for the custom tools you will know. Standard taps and dies can be bought for dollars rather than hundreds of dollars. big difference in investment.

Using the lathe to control the tools to me seems like nearly a must. I have done hand tapping and even in metal it is not always easy to get things straight. I can imagine that plastic would thread just about any old direction you wanted to go, and most of them would not be the right one. of course I have been known to make an Americana pen that the cap did not set straight on. so consider the source.

 

[Russianwolf]

Sweet, point me towards one of those kits online and I'll have to ask Santa for that. I can live with mismatched grain for the time being.

Who's Steve? lol

Got mine off ebay since I had paypal money in an old account to get rid of.

 

[BigShed]

To use the tap, you drill a hole that's slightly undersized, then use the tap by hand to make the threads. (The M10x1 for example needs a hole about 8.5mm in diameter)

I am by no means an "expert" on thread cutting, but I was taught that to determine the drill size for a metric thread you subtract the pitch from the diameter.

Therefore the drill size for an M10x1 thread is 9mm, 8.5mm drill size would be for M10x1.5.

This link will give you the drill sizes for most metric threads.

 

[Texatdurango]

I am by no means an "expert" on thread cutting, but I was taught that to determine the drill size for a metric thread you subtract the pitch from the diameter.

Therefore the drill size for an M10x1 thread is 9mm, 8.5mm drill size would be for M10x1.5.

This link will give you the drill sizes for most metric threads.

No "expert" here either but I think we need to remember that we are dealing with non-standard threads using a standard "pretty close" tap.

Without knowing the proper size hole to drill, I just experimented until I found a size that worked for me, I might have even tried a 9mm, I can't remember.

When I drill a hole in acrylic or truestone to be tapped with the 10x1mm tap, I use a letter "Q" drill which is .332" and the 9mm bit is .354", quite a bit of difference. I have heard from others who use a letter "R" bit but have not heard any larger.

Remember that the Berea and other nibs we are using are not "true" 10x1mm threads but are close enough to work, that is why we have settled on the 10x1mm tap by trial and error. The molded threads on the nib sections are very shallow and I'm told by "experts" at the local machine shop supply houses that they are not a standard metric thread. I'm afraid if I drilled the hole with a 9mm bit, the nib would just fall out without one thread grabbing!

I would be interested in learning what size holes others are drilling for the 10x1mm taps.

Disclaimer: Just sharing information, not saying anyone is right or wrong!

 

[dogcatcher]

This is the chart I reference to for all of my tap and die work .

http://www3.telus.net/public/aschoepp/tapdrill.html

I work mainly with steel and aluminum, if I was going to use plastic or acrylic then I would probably go to the next smaller size bit to get larger threads. I also don't do this with pens either and I need max holding power on the threads.

 

[Daniel]

I since a reluctance to comment to some degree with the "I'm no expert" sort of statements. Reluctance to even comment on your ideas, what you have tried, would like to try, what you have done and why you wanted to do it is not very conducive to promoting the idea of Advanced Penmaking.
It pretty much leaves others to have to re cut the path made by others. It reduces those small bits of information that might be just enough to have another penturner take the plunge. and sort of sends out an unspoken message that if youdo get involved in this you just might be shutting yourself in a closet where there is some reason to not share about it.
So in the interest of addressing this I am going to try and list some ground rules.
1. share what you have done, how you did it, and why you wanted to do it. most of this information cannot really be argued.
2. If you want to "Offer" suggestions to others on how to accomplish something in another way, feel free. But remember it is not better or worse it is just another way. It is also an "Offering" and does not necessarily have to be accepted.
3. Debating the details of various methods is fair play. But opinions concerning someone else's method are not. stick with what you know or you have done not what you think of what someone else has done.
4. Your opinion about whether you think anything is worth doing are OK only to the point of saying "It would not be worth it to me" Opinions of whether it should be worth doing for anyone else are not welcome. What has no value for you may be the only thing worth doing for me.
5. finally remember. All things come at a cost. many times that cost is Risk. You can expect to reap rewards in accordance with price you are willing to pay.

I am not aware of how past conversations have gone concerning advanced penturning. I do believe that if an atmosphere of safely sharing ideas does not develop. the skill will not advance.

 

[BigShed]

I gather that tirade was directed at me.

OK, I'll clarify, I am "no expert", however I was taught that to find the drill bit for a metric thread you deduct the pitch from the diameter. That lesson has stood me in good stead over the years and it is the method I use and it works for me.

If it doesn't work for others, fine, it is a free world, and last I looked free speech was still in force!

I live in a country where the metric system is in daily use, not some esoteric alternative to the system in daily use.

 

[Texatdurango]

And people wonder why there are fewer and fewer threads where people share their ideas anymore?

All this bickering and right-fighting posturing is why I basically stopped posting in the advanced pen turners forum all together and why I post less and less every day in any forum!

Seemed like every time I would spend a week experimenting with something new and posted the results to share my ideas, some couldn't wait to tell me what I did wrong, how it couldn't be done, the "correct" way was this or that or that I was talking down to others with my "tone" so why bother!

In another post recently I offered a suggestion that a person re-evaluate their turning skills instead of trying to find blame elsewhere for their problem at hand and what was meant as a helpful suggestion was misunderstood, misinterpreted or whatever and met with... "I've never been so offended in my life" so, yes there are reasons people are starting to cover themselves with comments like "I'm no expert" or worse yet, don't even bother posting at all, which is where I am slowly headed, it just takes a while for it to sink in to me.

Skye, I would seriously suggest visiting Harbor Freight or similar outlet, buying one of the big $60 tap and die sets when they are on sale for around $30, grab some acrylic blanks as cheap as you can OR ask some of the blank makers on the forum for some of their rejects, then practice drilling and tapping. It isn't hard or particularly technical, it just takes a little practice and when you find what works, write it down and stay with it! You'll be threading pens before you know it.

 

[Daniel]

For those that are concerned that there is confusion concerning the use of taps and dies, little participation on this subject, or a lock of sharing information. Which by the way are all conversations people have been having with me privately. Here is what I think.
Advanced penmaking is breaking new ground. ideas and comments relative to new ground will draw criticism. this group does not provide an atmosphere that allows for that to be done safely for the majority. even my attempt to list some ground rules was attacked. Basically the concern for being flamed is real. People have a reason to not engage in this conversation.

Basically any group has a point of Critical mass. below that mass the group is not large enough to be at max. effectiveness. It does not have anough manpower or creative resources to achieve it's goals.
Above critical mass you have to many diverse ideas and the group looses much of it's effectiveness through conflicting goals, varying ideas, and personality conflicts as well as many other reasons.
On the internet you have the added problem of what are called trolls. those that are only there to cause conflict. They only engage in a conversation to disrupt it.
I do not know what critical mass for an internet group is. I do know it is somewhere in the area of 70 people for a group that can gather in person.
I believe that the I.A.P. is seriously over critical mass. I also believe that Jeff's recent decision to broaden the managment of the group is one way to deal with the effects of this.
As far as Advanced penmaking and the lack of information and confusing surrounding it. I see to sollutions.
1. remove the reason to be reluctant to share. this would mean that a core group of people would have to be willing to set an example of ground rules and enforce them. Creating a "safe place" to share ideas that would otherwise be at risk of attracting criticism.
2. form a new group that is targeted to the discussion and development of Advanced penmaking that does not suffer the effects of being over critical mass.

as for what to do to get people engaged on this topic here in the I.A.P. I wouldn't, I would not suggest to anyone to do what I have just done. I would not tell someone to talk about something that very likely will get the flamed, certainly if they are concerned about getting flamed. Basically I just proved that what I suspect people are worried about. They should be worried about.
I find it revealing that one of the comments attacking me was made by someone that has not made one comment in any of the threads on this subject until there was an opportunity to criticize someone. there have been three threads on the subject of taps and dies for for three days now. all of them clearly inviting comments. but there was nothing this person had to say until they could stir something up. To do so they actually had to use irrelevant quotes of me to even make their point. The quotes used are my attempt to "Understand" an idea. Not criticize it. And I do not for one second think you are confused about that. I think you are using a pathetic reason to harass someone.
That is the problem.

 

[Daniel]

Fred, I wrote a reply to your comment last night but lost connection with the group and obviously it did not post.
Not only is my post not directed at you. I did not even have your post in mind when I wrote it. Had it been directed at you I would have addressed it to you as I have this one. I have read many more messages on this subject than are in these threads.
My post is directed at exactly what I addressed it to. the tendency for people to distance themselves from there comments and the reasons they might think they need to do that.

As for the ground rules. As I said "I am going to try and list some ground rules"
I in fact did "list some ground rules" and then I watched the reaction to that. It was exactly what I expected it to be with the suspicions I have. In effect I now have evidence that I am correct. I did not ask anyone to "follow" ground rules. I said I would list them. and see what the group chooses to do with them. to see if the group recognizes a point, agrees with it, and takes action to do something with it. or if they choose to use the opportunity to be a part of the problem. Your choice is just that, your choice. I did not make it. nobody else made it for you. whether it be from adding to what I said. making assumptions, or simple misunderstanding, the choice was made and has consequences. In this case it is obvious to anyone watching that anything but a list of ground rules like I listed will be accepted.

 

[chriselle]

Well, I don't really think we need ground rules as such....maybe just a little perspective perhaps.
We are still talking about threads on little bits of plastic, right?

Actually, I'm quite amazed that anyone bothers to post on "the topic" at all...lol. Those that do...thanks for your time.

Cheers fellas,

Chris

 

[Daniel]

Chris, you right. Few if any of us will pay the rent, feed our children or make our next car payment with any of this information. I also apologize to Rick for him being such a clear direct target of my point. This is not at all about Rick or his specific comment. The point is that anyone could have chosen that response and the response has a reaction in the group. that reaction is not necessarily all good or bad. there is a responce to what I post and it is not necessarily all good or bad.

The topic of this thread is about threading your own pen parts and information needed to do that.

 

[btboone]

Skye, do you have CAD? You can easily do your own threads just by drawing them to scale and allowing some clearance for the parts to pass over each other. I do it all the time, however having the lathe make exactly what I ask for does help a bit. I'm working on some now that have tapered 4 lead threads. It worked the first time. If you ever want to come by and check out how to do it, I can show you what I do. It's a little trickier to cut them by hand, but it's not too bad. It does take a small metal lathe to do it right.

 

[Skye]

Bruce, I've got it at work, but it's been years since I've used it so I may as well not know how to use it at all.

Are you going to be at the meeting in March? If so maybe I can sneak off to your place or swing by the next day. (wife and I will be sleeping at a hotel that weekend)

 

[btboone]

I'll need to check into the March meeting.

For threads, you just draw the 60 degree triangles and space them to whatever your pitch is. Just nip off the tops of the triangles because that part would rub in the female threads and cause a lot of friction. Copy those threads to the female version and add a few thousandths of an inch clearance. On highly accurate stuff like camera parts, the clearance is very tight and the threads are very accurate. On something like a bolt, they are sloppy and there's lots of clearance. It depends on the feel you want. The accuracy of our parts is somewhere between the two extremes. Somewhere around .002" to .003" clearance per side seems to work well for pen stuff. As long as you are making the male and female parts, they don't need to stick to any set standard. It helps in the design when you're not trapped into having to use a certain dimension for cap threads.