Copper Inlay problems

[MDVolle]

Forgive me if this has been asked a hundred times - I didn't see anything specifically on this topic in a quick search -

I'm working with fire downed Manzanita and its frequently quite damaged internally as well from bugs - long erratic trails that may show up at any point in turning

I'm OK with the damage and really want to make some Kintsugi inspired pens using copper to fill the voids - the wood is stable enough to turn and finish - its just has bug trails through some of it.

I chose copper to complement the wood color and be easy to turn and finish - the wood is quite hard

I read about using very thin "penetrating" type CA glue and copper powder - single fill, multi-pass fill, copper first, glue first - I have the same issue each time

I can't get the CA to wet the copper - it forms a bead that then jumps to the wood and flows everywhere but the copper powder

I have 320 mesh copper powder and am wondering if its too fine? its ArtMolds 320 mesh

The glue is Starbond Infiltrant thin - rated "water thin" for quick penetration of powdered inlays.
I tried washing the powder in some acetone and found it turned the acetone quite dark - seemingly with some fine contaminate but that didn't help at all.

Suggestions?

Thanks

Mark

 

[hooked]

I am not sure about your particular issue as I have never worked with this, but what about making a slurry with the copper powder and the CA? Mix it together and then work it into the voids. Perhaps the copper is so fine that when you are filling in your voids it is compacting so well that the CA can't flow through.

Just spitballing because I have never tried this.

 

[sorcerertd]

I have not tried this, but my intuition says that, once the wood is saturated with the ca and set, the voids will hold the copper in suspension properly. Now, how it holds together on the lathe is a different story. I'm very intrigued by this method, though, and quite interested in how this will turn out.

 

[1080Wayne]

Might be worth trying the other extreme . See if the powder can be mixed into a thicker CA , maybe a gel type . If that works , just do a wash coat of ultra thin before putting in the thick to fill the holes .

 

[derekdd]

Might be worth trying the other extreme . See if the powder can be mixed into a thicker CA , maybe a gel type . If that works , just do a wash coat of ultra thin before putting in the thick to fill the holes .

That sounds like the route I'd go.

The wood is going to keep soaking up the thin CA until it's saturated. Hitting it with thin and a shot of activator to make sure it dries quickly should provide a more stable surface for the medium CA/copper powder mix.

Sounds like a fun project. Please provide pics once done, @MDVolle

Good luck!

 

[Humongous]

You could also try a UV cure resin. This would give you alot of time to mix in the powder.

 

[jttheclockman]

The problem when using a fine dust such as copper dust, when CA is applied it cause clumping and not even become a putty because the CA will be wicked up and dry. You see this alot when people try to fill holes and dents in wood with wood glue and saw dust. The first thing happens the pile of dust clumps. What I would try is using a clear epoxy. you can seal the wood with hardener or thin CA. Then use a clear epoxy adhesive and before you add the accelerator portion, mix in your copper dust real good. Then mix the second part and now you have more time to work it into the wood before it kicks off. Use a 15 min. adhesive at least. These are my suggestions. This is the way I color epoxy ahesives when I need them. Do show us the results.

I probably should add to add a tad more hardener when mixing because the dust will screw up mix ratio. Just work quickly after hardener is added. Even with 15 min or 30 minute epoxy it can kick quicker.

 

[hewunch]

The problem when using a fine dust such as copper dust, when CA is applied it cause clumping and not even become a putty because the CA will be wicked up and dry. You see this alot when people try to fill holes and dents in wood with wood glue and saw dust. The first thing happens the pile of dust clumps. What I would try is using a clear epoxy. you can seal the wood with hardener or thin CA. Then use a clear epoxy adhesive and before you add the accelerator portion, mix in your copper dust real good. Then mix the second part and now you have more time to work it into the wood before it kicks off. Use a 15 min. adhesive at least. These are my suggestions. This is the way I color epoxy ahesives when I need them. Do show us the results.

I probably should add to add a tad more hardener when mixing because the dust will screw up mix ratio. Just work quickly after hardener is added. Even with 15 min or 30 minute epoxy it can kick quicker.

This!

 

[MRDucks2]

Lots of good ideas but I believe John may have nailed the best answer.

 

[MDVolle]

All,

Thanks for your responses - I do know what happens if you try to mix the copper with the CA first - the fine particles and huge surface area instantly set off the CA - like using baking soda on joints when building RC planes - but the glue instantly wicks into the baking soda - which is what I was expecting with the copper.

The UV resin idea is very interesting - I'll look into that and I know that there are water clear resins.

Epoxy does work - I have some water clear two part epoxy, and again, the powder about halves the cure, so a longer setting time is essential but the epoxy doesn't seem to hold quite as much powder and doesn't polish up quite as bright - I may try mixing powder into both parts before mixing - that may increase the density of copper and the softer epoxy will be covered by the CA finish.

It may also be that I need to find slightly bigger particles - like 100 mesh - the 320 mesh may just be too fine to start the capillary action

I'm currently drying out the copper in a vacuum to make sure there's no residual moisture

I may also try heating the copper or thinning the CA with acetone -

I promise I will report back!

 

[jttheclockman]

As for shine are you not doing a CA finish on top?? Copper is not bright to begin with. Put it under heat and it will darken. If you put dust in both parts A and B I do not think you will get a good reaction and then get it to stick. Here is another suggestion. fill the crevices with plain dust and then put a layer of epoxy on top.( You can mix part A and B and add the copper dust and see if that work. Just need to use a longer open time epoxy.) Epoxy is the answer to what to use but the method may take some trials. CA will not work. They do this all the time in inlays when making bowls and things like that. Look for utube videos . As far as the size of the dust I do not know that one.

 

[MRDucks2]

If you are drawing a vacuum on the copper powder, you may want to try loading up either one part of your epoxy or a longer set epoxy mix with the copper powder, then drawing a vacuum on the compound.

It will foam/bubble so leave plenty of head room. Cycle the vacuum draw a few times if needed, similar to degassing. I have used this methods to get pure carbon black to better mix into resin without tiny clumps. Perhaps it will help with getting more copper into the resin.

 

[MDVolle]

OK - updating with the progress and notes -

All attempts to get even the infiltration CA to actually wick into the 320 mesh copper, at best left a thin layer of bonded copper - but research also started to indicate that while 300-350 mesh powders are common, they can be too fine and the space between particles too small to start the capillary action needed to saturate the whole depth of the powder -

I sourced some 100 mesh copper and turquoise powders -

I picked a piece of very punky something I found at the bottom of a shallow pond - weighed very little and was quite soft and wet - I had dried out some slices of it but wasn't sure it would be useful for anything - I sliced up a blank and bored a hole for a pen tube and bonded in a brass tube -

I rough turned the blank to a little larger than the desired size - glueing back on three pieces that flew off while turning (it was just to be an experiment - both the inlay and the wood -

I filled some of the defects with copper and some with the turquoise powders - the CA instantly absorbed into the 100 mesh powders - saturating down through the powder in the voids.

Both the stone and the copper could be hard on turning tools but carbide tools didn't seem to be affected - roughing off the excess fill and glue was easy and straight forward - sanding went as normal but the inlays seem more prone to showing scratches -

The challenge seems to be getting the polish desired on the metal and stone before beginning the finish layers - I sanded down to 600 grit before trying to get a shine on the two inlay materials - they started to appear polished around 1000 grit

The polishing of the inlay can stain the wood around it but I had dripped enough of the very thin CA on the wood that the grain was partly filled and sealed - even switching to a dry polishing compound on a soft cloth didn't discolor the wood and put a shine on the inlays -

I then built up a thick layer of CA - I still didn't manage to completely fill some of the voids in the wood but its a good test.

The copper will take more experimenting to get it to look like solid metal - the turquoise powder just seemed to work without any issues.

Pleased with the progress!

Lots to continue to play with and improve - could have used a lot more care sanding the CA - can still see fine scratches but was testing new sanding materials and the whole experiment was under two hours.

 

[MRDucks2]

Thanks for keeping us updated on the trials and progress.

 

[derekdd]

That's certainly an interesting looking outcome.

It sounds and looks like good progress.

 

[MDVolle]

As for shine are you not doing a CA finish on top?? Copper is not bright to begin with. Put it under heat and it will darken. If you put dust in both parts A and B I do not think you will get a good reaction and then get it to stick. Here is another suggestion. fill the crevices with plain dust and then put a layer of epoxy on top.( You can mix part A and B and add the copper dust and see if that work. Just need to use a longer open time epoxy.) Epoxy is the answer to what to use but the method may take some trials. CA will not work. They do this all the time in inlays when making bowls and things like that. Look for utube videos . As far as the size of the dust I do not know that one.

I have worked with epoxy a fair amount - with the powder metal, its a bit soft and seems to require a lot more care not to generate any heat while trying to put a shine on the metal - the CA just seems to be harder and clearer - giving a brighter, shinier finish.

With the 100 mesh powder, it wicks in immediately, sets in a few minutes (even without accelerator) and integrates with the CA finish pass perfectly. The slightly slower and thinner infusion designed product works even better than the normal super thin - sets slightly slower but is still water thin.

The various videos and demos I've watched seem to be split on the epoxy vs CA but folks are doing inlays with both, even up to significant size areas. Above a certain volume of material, I think that the CA could get too hot and potentially become an issue but its used as widely as the epoxy.

 

[jttheclockman]

Smaller things like you did with the pen could probably work well. yes there are many videos out there showing how people do inlays. It does make for an interesting look. Good luck as you continue down this road.