color me confused

[Rifleman1776]

There is a huge resource of talent on this forum. I have learned much here. But, that said, the rest of world has a lot of talented folks also. When I first started woodturning, I did a lot of reading and asking of questions. Still do both. When it came to finishes (before I found IAP) the universal advice was that higher quality finishes has fewer volitiles (carriers, solvents) in them and more of the 'stuff' that made a finish a finish. It also meant that fewer solvents would allow the applied finish to dry faster. A master woodworker and some magazines advised that Myland's was one of the best finishes around with the added bonus of drying very fast. It had more 'stuff' and fewer solvents. OK, I bought, use it and like it. But, now come voices of experience from IAP. And they bring credentials in the way of beautiful, eye-popping finishes. Their advice? Use slow drying finishes. Uh? [:0] Color me confused. Slow dry has less of the good 'stuff' that makes a fine finish. So, what's missing in this picture? Violins made 300 years ago were cited as examples of fine finishes that took a long-long time to dry. O.K., everyone in the peanut gallery who was there to watch these finishes applied 300 years ago, please raise your hands. [] I thought so. My wood finish experience was pretty limited to guns, primarily those built to resemble antiquties. The preferred finish is often boiled linseed oil. On modern guns it is the (excuse my acronymesee) commercial version of BLO that is often used. Since it dries rapidly and requires many repeat applications, I suspect it has a low content of 'stuff' and lots of solvents. OK, let's review: fast is better because it has more 'stuff'. Slow is better because....[?] Excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall.

 

[Dario]

It makes perfect sense up until the last 3 sentences [] where you started contradicting everything before that. []

Anyway, Mylands makes different finishes so which one is it you're talking about?

I used their friction polish and it does create a very nice finish fast but it never lasts. I stopped using it on pens. In lieu of that I bought their (Mylands) lacquer finish [] as well as their sanding sealer. I haven't tried lacquer yet because I am playing with 100% Tung oil and will probably stick to it. It all depends on my patience...maybe some day I will use CA again when I really want/need a pen right away.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I revised one (confusing) typo from 'slowly' to 'rapidly'. The Myland's referred to is their friction finish. I have learned that it does not wear well on pens even though it is one of those finishes with a lot of the 'stuff' in it. In theory, it should wear well. I now use two applications each of Myland's: sanding sealer; fricition finish and melamine finish. It's O.K. but not a Grizz or DCBluesman knock-out finish.

 

[DCBluesman]

Frank--There are a couple of problems with your story.

The addition of the "junk" in most finishes is what decreases the drying and curing time. Taking linseed oil as an example, in its natural state it dries and cures very slowly. A number of elements, primarily heavy metals, are added to raw linseed oil to create boiled linseed oil, which dries and cures much faster.

In terms of carriers, certain carriers create a faster dry but a slower cure. The best example is shellac. The most basic shellac is simply a combination of denatured alcohol and lac. Most manufacturers add other elements and change the carrier to shorten the drying time. This puts a hard shell on the outside, but the cure process is inhibited. Thus, the dry time is faster and the cure time is slower.

Further complications are added to the process when finishes are developed for different types of application. Lacquer is often thinned for air gun and aerosol application. The thinning means that the desirable components are applied in smaller quantity. Most often, the thinning ingredients are highly evaporative. The finish dries quickly but has no substance.

The final ingredient to the process is durability. Wood is durable. Natural finish (shellac, wax, oil) is less durable. Our "glossy is better" mentality drives us to want a finish that stays glossy. There are several ways to accomplish this. One is to use the old methods and understand that care and even refinishing are going to be required. Another way is to change the finish to something that maintains its gloss...plastics, for example.

In terms of eye-popping finishes, I have had success with CA (hate it), tung oil (not a lot of gloss but still beautiful), friction polish/shellac (great shine but needs work to maintain), Waterlox (a lengthy process but probably my favorite finish), polyurethane (hate it more than CA) and lacquer (a reasonable compromise in my opinion). I think the eye-popping finish is 1) determined before any finish is selected and 2) determined by the experience, dedication and perseverance of the person doing the finish.

When people ask me for advice I tell them to try several, pick one you like and become an expert at using it. In time, most are happy with their results.

 

[RussFairfield]

Some comments on this thread in no particular order.....

Your comments on the contradictions is what makes the topic of finishing so confusing to so many people. I open my introduction to finishing with the statement that you can ask 10 "experts" and get 15 different answers, and they will all be correct. The reason for there being more answers than there are "experts" is that 5 of them will tell you something different the 2nd time you ask the question. I conclude with the statement that everyone should work with the information we have, develop their own "favorite finish", and they too will be an "expert".

Remember that I always say "this is what works for me". I can tell you what I do, but I cannot give anyone the 55-years of experience that I have at doing what I do.

I always use the word "expert" with reservation because many of them have a horse in this race. They either work for, consult to, or sell the products of, the finishing manufacturers.

Many of the things said in the beginning of your comments are correct. The higher priced finishes have more solids, and therefore a faster build. How fast they cure depends on how thick it is put on the wood. Most of the commercial products will dry faster, but take more coats to get there because they have fewer solids and more thinners. An example is the common oil finish of 60 years ago, and still preferred by a lot of woodworkers, is equal parts of Tung or Boiled Linseed Oil, alkyd resin varnish, and thinner. The recipe for most commercial finishes is 1-part oil, 1/4-part varnish, and 2-parts of thinner; and the oil fraction is Soybean oil that requires the addition of at least 1/2-part of a metallic dryer before it will polyermize.

The same is true for lacquer. I quart of a Ditzler automotive lacquer has more solids than an entire gallon of Deft, it weighs almost as much as that gallon of Deft, and it costs more.

Lou discusses a problem we all have - the confusion between "dry" and "cure". Many of the finishes we use are dry to the touch in a few minutes to a few hours, but they are not even close to being fully cured, polymerized, or evaporated to reach their full maximum hardness. That can take weeks to months in atmospheric conditions. Commercial furniture uses precatalyzed finishes and controlled drying chambers to speed up the process. Lacquer isn't fully dry until all odor of the solvent has disappeared, and that could be measured in months; and 2 months would be an expected time. It takes at least a 2 months for an oil finish to be thoroughly "dry" and reach its maximum hardness. Shellac continues to harden for up to 2 years, but we expect a Friction Polish to be useable within minutes after it has been applied; and the manufacturers have done everything possible to convince us that we can do that.

In the end, no finish can be any better than the surface of the wood under it. And, don't forget that "fast" is in the mind of whoever wrote the advertisement copy, and we believe it because we want to.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Lou, Russ, thanks. You answered my questions well. But, I guess, the search goes on for the perfect finish product. I'll let you know when I have found mine. After I stop banging my head against the wall. [:0][]

 

[Dario]

Frank,

I learned that this search could get really expensive...and ends in a lot of clutter (unused containers of various materials []).

I really like Tung oil but the drying and curing wait can get unbearable. Like you I am still searching....

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by Rifleman
<br />But, I guess, the search goes on for the perfect finish product. I'll let you know when I have found mine. After I stop banging my head against the wall. [:0][]

Frank, as I see it the biggest problem I see with you finding the perfect finish, is that, by your own admission, Your the Cheapest SOB in Arkansas.... you need to let the moths out of your wallet and buy a bunch of quality stuff to play with...[}][}]

Sorry, Frank, I could not resist it... and I ain't even from Texas...[]

 

[Rifleman1776]

Tom, not really the cheapest in Arkansas. But working on it. [][] Actually, I simply hate being wasteful and I'm not as tight as my own self-deprecating jokes would imply. But, quality finishes are expensive and a dozen cans of unused 'stuff', at $8 to $20 each sitting on the shelf is very wasteful. Maybe if there was a market for my pens around here the cash flow situation wouldn't be only going out. BTW I do like your new picture.

 

[MDWine]

Wow... talk about useful dialog.
This is golden![]
Thanks to everyone, this one is getting printed and going into my notebook...

"the cure's the thing" !!![]

 

[woodbutcher]

Mylands friction polish needs at least a week to cure before being put into service. I have made a lot of pens w that finish with no problems. Most of those pens lead a pretty simple life. My favorite finish in looks and performance is CA glue. I really hate the stuff as far as working with it. If you use the Mylands just be sure to let the stuff cure in an area where air circulates. By the way, do you wear a helmet?

Jim[]

 

[Doghouse]

One thing that has been overlooked (or I missed reading it) is flow. If a finish dries before it can properly flow you get brush marks or orange peel. Longer slower curing results in better flow but too heavy of an application can cause drips or sags to appear. So yes it is magic, and you have to find the one that works right for you. Heck I am constantly changing things as needed.

 

[hombre4]

OK Grizz, after looking at some of your work I am sold. What do you use and what is your technic? I am after that high gloss and while it looks good on the lathe soon changes to not so good afterwards...[]