Choosing the size of my Triple start die and tap!

[Niels]

Hello fellow penturners,
I'm a starting penmaker from the Netherlands. I bought a Record Power ML305 lathe and my goal is to make custom pens. Unfortunately there is no proper supplier over here. I found the site of Beaufort in the Uk which is still a 6 to 8 hours drive including crossing the channel. So I'm required to order my needed tools online to start penturning. I know I want to turn custom pens so I'm not gonna invest in penkits to get started. I need to buy a triple start die and tap amongst a whole bunch of other stuff and all togheter it's quite the investment, but the size of the tap and die is important i think because it determines the size of your pen. I'm wondering wether to buy a M12 or a M13 die and tap.

I ordered a custom made pen from RangaPens in India cause I stumbled upon one of his videos and it really made me interested in penmaking alongside with the old Japanese guys who approach it very Japanese like. Later investigation made me aware there are a lot of ways to approach it. The pen I bought is 16 mm width and to my liking it's to broad. Although I like the way it holds in your hand. I always had a Parker fountain pen myself to write with and it's 10 mm and to thin to write comfortable for a long period of time i know from experience.

What are the minimum sizes you can achieve with a M12 and M13 triple die and tap and how do i figure out what my personal preference is gonna be?

I have the feeling most people use a M13x0,8 triple die and tap. So I have a feeling this is the best option but i wanne be sure before a make such a big investment.

I hope I dont make to much mistakes in my English.

Oh and i have one other question. The die foor the cap is usually a M10X1, that's what beaufort sells and they have mandrells so i'm inclined to buy it but i also see M10x0,75. Does it make a lot of difference?

Greetings, Niels

 

[Jans husband]

I suggest you make contact with Phil Dart at Beaufort Inks and talk to him. He will tell everything you need to know.

There is also an excellent tutorial on making kitless pens on the Beaufort website which he wrote.

Mike

 

[MedWoodWorx]

Hello fellow penturners,
I'm a starting penmaker from the Netherlands. I bought a Record Power ML305 lathe and my goal is to make custom pens. Unfortunately there is no proper supplier over here. I found the site of Beaufort in the Uk which is still a 6 to 8 hours drive including crossing the channel. So I'm required to order my needed tools online to start penturning. I know I want to turn custom pens so I'm not gonna invest in penkits to get started. I need to buy a triple start die and tap amongst a whole bunch of other stuff and all togheter it's quite the investment, but the size of the tap and die is important i think because it determines the size of your pen. I'm wondering wether to buy a M12 or a M13 die and tap.

I ordered a custom made pen from RangaPens in India cause I stumbled upon one of his videos and it really made me interested in penmaking alongside with the old Japanese guys who approach it very Japanese like. Later investigation made me aware there are a lot of ways to approach it. The pen I bought is 16 mm width and to my liking it's to broad. Although I like the way it holds in your hand. I always had a Parker fountain pen myself to write with and it's 10 mm and to thin to write comfortable for a long period of time i know from experience.

What are the minimum sizes you can achieve with a M12 and M13 triple die and tap and how do i figure out what my personal preference is gonna be?

I have the feeling most people use a M13x0,8 triple die and tap. So I have a feeling this is the best option but i wanne be sure before a make such a big investment.

I hope I dont make to much mistakes in my English.

Oh and i have one other question. The die foor the cap is usually a M10X1, that's what beaufort sells and they have mandrells so i'm inclined to buy it but i also see M10x0,75. Does it make a lot of difference?

Greetings, Niels

welcome. check this out https://www.woodblanksandpenkits.nl/ they don't sell stuff for kitless pens but you might find other gear and consumables, cheers

 

[darrin1200]

Welcome Neils

Minimums and maximums will start with your choice of thread. That's why many of us have 4-5 different tap sets.

The minimum size barrel you can make will be a 12mm, because that is the size needed for the thread. This also means the caps minimum diameter will be 13-14 mm, depending on how brave you are, because you need at least .5-1mm wall thickness beyond the thread. Another spec is the Section. The maximum diameter it can be is 11mm because that is the largest it can be and still fit into the cap past the 12mm threads. You can always make the barrel and cap bigger, but this will create an ever increasing step between the barrek]k and the section (because you can't make the section bigger.)

Your last paragraph talks about the 10mm tap, but you mention the cap. I think you are referring to the section. 10x1mm or 10x.75mm are the two common threads for the section. I personally use the 10x.75, because it gives me a little more wall thickness in the section. But that is more a personal preference than a requirement. M10x1 is more readily available, and slightly cheaper, in regular tool and hardware stores.

Kitless pens are great fun, but some of the parts can be expensive. If you like a thicker pen, I would recommend going with the 13mm. As it will make a comfortable 14mm pen, and not to bad of a step on a 16mm pen. Also, keep in mind that you do not have to use triple start threads. I know many makers that use single start threads, which are far less expensive, and can be found almost anywhere. The draw back, is adjusting for the amount of turns required to uncap the pen.

I hope this helps a little. There is no one stop learning shop for this. There will be a bit of trial and error to find what works best for you. A podcast I recommend, is As The Pen Turns. It's the only podcast I know of, that is strictly about pen makers, albeit mostly kitless pens.

I look forward to seeing your work.

 

[Penchant 4]

Have to agree with Jans husband above. Mr. Dart is generous and forthright with his guidance.

Also, perhaps look at Jim Hinze, a USA based instructor and source for tooling. The website is: https://hinzepens.com/

Your English is pretty darn good!

Good luck!

 

[duncsuss]

One thing to add to Darrin's post, which covers 90% of what I was going to write: there are minimum dimensions of the connector between the section and the barrel determined by your choice of ink supply (which itself might be limited if you choose nib units other than "standard" JoWo or Bock.)

Example 1: JoWo (or Bock) size #5 or #6 nib unit with standard international cartridge/converter - a very high percentage of all pens are made using this combination. My calculation:

• The cartridge/converter fits nicely into a 0.250 inch hole (6.35mm)
• if you choose M10x1 section threads, the minimum wall thickness is (10 - 1 - 6.35) / 2 = 1.325 mm
• if you choose M9x0.75 section threads, the minimum wall thicknss is (9 - 0.75 - 6.35) / 2 = 0.95 mm

Each different material has different mechanical properties, so I cannot always rely on 0.95mm to be strong enough, but I use it whenever possible because I like to have the extra material thickness in the wall of the pen barrel rather than in the wall of the ink feed holder.

Of course, you could choose M10x0.75, which would give even more thickness around the ink feed holder.

Or you might choose to make a pen with a different ink reservoir - for example a sac, or just the pen barrel filled using a piston or a vacuum fill mechanism, or simple eye-dropper fill. These options change the minimum dimension which is no longer a function of the cartridge/converter. I've made pens that use a Pilot CON-50 cartridge/converter - which are bigger than the standard international one - and pens that use old Esterbrook Renew-Point nib units. Using a scale drawing it is simple to calculate the dimensions that will work for any combination - then you can choose the one that best suits your requirements.

 

[Valleyboy]

All I can say is if I was just starting again, knowing what I know, I would go for a 13mm triple lead. It's a good middle of the road and popular size.
Anyway whatever to decide I wish you good luck!

Cheers
Ash

 

[Niels]

Thanks everybody for answering so quick. I think I will just do what I see most people do and sttart with the 13x0,8 combined with the 10x1 and Bock #6 combination. It's available at Beaufort including affordable mandrels and it's very commonly used for a reason I guess.

I have to see how it ends up anyway you cannot see how it feels and holds on YouTube in the end.

Thanks again

 

[darrin1200]

Thanks everybody for answering so quick. I think I will just do what I see most people do and sttart with the 13x0,8 combined with the 10x1 and Bock #6 combination. It's available at Beaufort including affordable mandrels and it's very commonly used for a reason I guess.

I have to see how it ends up anyway you cannot see how it feels and holds on YouTube in the end.

Thanks again

That is the best idea Niels. Just get making.
You will find that your design choices will lead you to new tools or materials as you keep making. That's half the fun.