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GBusardo

GBusardo

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Dec 8, 2005
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1,240
Location
Beachwood, NJ, USA.
I have been trying my best to do a decent CA finish. My first one came out terrible. Dull spots and it seems the CA magnifies any little scratches that are still on the blank. Second one came out better. I did notice scratches that seemed to be deep, not even sure where they came from. I am thinking something got in between the sandpaper and the blank. The scratch was almost diagonal. The third one didn't make it on the kit. I got my best finish yet, I think, but one side of the pen WOULD NOT come off the mandrel. I tried even soaking it in acetone. Didn't work. I ended up paring off the wood and getting off the brass tube with a lot of work. I hope I didnt ruin the mandrel.
All and all I see there is a lot of potential for me with this finish. I get more shine with the CA, but it has a different feel than the friction polishes. As a long time woodworker, I think I prefer the shellac, but I cannot argue with the shine and durability of CA. I can see why customers would prefer that. A couple of things popped into my mind as I was using the CA. For the first time while gluing the blanks, the CA got cloudy and almost looked like there was a film on it. The CA is about 6 months old and is kept in my basement. Temp is between 65 and 70, but it has been damp down there. The bond seemed to be real strong as I was trying to get the blank off the mandrel though. Could it just be too old? I used a different bottle for the finish. My second question is, is it normal for the paper towel you apply the thin CA to start smoking while I put on the first coat? it got so hot, it melted the baggy I was using on top my fingers.
I scanned a picture and hopefully the picture will be sharp enough for anyone to take a look and give me some pointers. I tried to take a picture, but the pictures came out fuzzy for some reason.
Sorry this was so long winded,sometimes i get carried away


200682122927_tulip%20half.jpg



Thanks
Gary
 
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Those few scratches for me was caused by applying a little too much pressure during sanding with the coarser grits. I cured that (for me) by applying less pressure and spending a few extra seconds with lighter pressure on each successive grit.

The dull spots is usually where the CA has been fine sanded off. Building up a few more layers of CA should fix that.

Sticking bushings and mandrels: One thing that has been recommended often is to wax the bushing and mandrell each time. This has helped me tremendously. Rifleman suggested once to use the bushing to turn and sand to size, then place a home made piece of plastic washer from a butter dish or tupperware type of dish (don't let the Mrs. see that) - place this between the bushing and turned blank. I have done this a few times, particularly on a few expensive pens. It sure helped me.

All of the above has increased the amount of time it takes me to finish a pen by 10 to 30 minutes. But it is worth it.
 
Though I don't use CA finishes any more it was one time my finish of choice. I have experienced many of the frustrations that have and came up with possible theories and solutions.
In regards to the scratching,while they may have come from the coarser grits my guess is they came from the original tooling and were hidden by the sanding residue.Try blowing the blank off between grits.Do this between every grit before proceeding to the next.
About the cloudy spots.If you are like me you are anxious to see what the finish product will be. It took me a while to determine that the heat generated by the turning/finishing process may be causing the problem.I believe the cloudiness(especially under a CA finish) stems from the fact the mandrel adapter, mandrel and the blank itself gets warm.Once the Ca is applied the moisture in the blank gets hermetically sealed under the CA.Try letting the blank sit and cool off after sanding and before applying the CA.
Sometimes these ghosts will appear regardless and there is very little you can do to get rid of them.
Lastly get another mandrel set up or two and work on more than one pen at a time.
I have learned that most of my problems stem from being impatient waitng to go from one step to the next.
With more than one pen going at a time I find that I am not in a rush for things to "cure" and when the blank is cool the results improve.
 
Lee,
Why would the blank now be dull if I had sanded through the CA? The blank was shiny before I used the CA. I was wondering how I would know if I had sanded through. What am I missing?
Thanks to all for your replies
Gary
 
It can burn you and things around you if you don't watch it although I have yet to ever have a problem with it. I use squares of that foam packing sheets and it works better than anything else for me.

As for the scratches, I went through that too and finally made 400 grit my 'coarse' paper. As long as you get a clean cut on your final cut you really don't need to start with anything coarser than that. It can still be problematic with dark dark woods like blackwood, bog oak, or ebony and you will see them right AFTER you put your finish on.

It really is worth the pain and you will get the hang of it. It does last and much better than friction polish. If not CA then go with either lacquer, enduro, or plexi IMHO.
 
I see the scratches after I finish with CA and start sanding again, thats why I think the CA makes my imperfections stand out, either that or the CA is so much harder than wood and maybe a tiny hunk of CA is getting caught between my sandpaper and the blank. I was thinking of getting some enduro, but I feel like I me and Eagle are in the same boat patience wise. My basement is pretty damp, even with a dehumidifier, so I really don't want to wait a week before the finish cures. I will continue trying with the CA and hope I improve.
Thanks
Gary
 
Okay - several things:

1: I've heard that the cellulose of which papertowels are made acts as an activator for CA and, therefore, it starts to dry and cure more rapidly when you use papertowels as applicators. I've had better luck using quilting batting folded into little applicators with masking tape handles at the end.

2: Are you applying a layer of Boiled Linseed Oil prior to the CA? This seems to help me. I do that because I read that I ought to do that in an article from this website.

3:Are you doing two barrel sections on the same mandrell at once? You're probably much more skilled than I am but I have found that, invariably, I run past the end of one section and the bushing and touch the other barrel section with my applicator. I do a much better job of it if I just have one barrell section on the mandrell, finish that one, and then do the other one. Ah, you say, "how do you make sure they match?" Well, I just want them both to be shiny and smooth, I don't have to have both of them on there to see if they're shiny and smooth.

4: What speed are you using when you're applying your CA? I don't think I've ever seen where anyone has said how fast the lathe should be turning during the finishing stage.

5: No one has mentioned Micro-Mesh in this thread. I sand through 800 and switch to Micro-Mesh and go all the way through to 12000. Can't beat thatr magnificent product! TIP: They give you that mittle block of sponge for a reason - use it! If not you'll burn the abrasive off the cloth and this stiff's too expensive to treat like that. Nothing substitutes for a smooth surface on which to apply your finish and nothing acheives a smooth surface like Micro-Mesh.

6: I agree about the heat thing! Let the parts cool, frequently and thoroughly. For that matter, let yourself cool frequently (although not thoroughly). Consider these cooling-off breaks to be fine opportunities to go in the house for a cool drink or whatever.

Those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Julia
 
For the same reason I start with 600 grit after applying CA and then go straight to micromesh.

Originally posted by GBusardo
<br />I see the scratches after I finish with CA and start sanding again, thats why I think the CA makes my imperfections stand out, either that or the CA is so much harder than wood and maybe a tiny hunk of CA is getting caught between my sandpaper and the blank. I was thinking of getting some enduro, but I feel like I me and Eagle are in the same boat patience wise. My basement is pretty damp, even with a dehumidifier, so I really don't want to wait a week before the finish cures. I will continue trying with the CA and hope I improve.
Thanks
Gary
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by jtate
<br />Okay - several things:
<b>Okay Julia, several replies</b>
1: I've heard that the cellulose of which papertowels are made acts as an activator for CA and, therefore, it starts to dry and cure more rapidly when you use papertowels as applicators. I've had better luck using quilting batting folded into little applicators with masking tape handles at the end.<b>I've heard that too. This is going to sound like a broken record, but I've tried every material that has been suggested as an applicator or applying CA as a pen finish. I can only get consistent results with paper towels...not just any paper towel, but Bounty plain white ones. May just be me, but nothing else works for me. I've tried them all!</b>

2: Are you applying a layer of Boiled Linseed Oil prior to the CA? This seems to help me. I do that because I read that I ought to do that in an article from this website.<b>I apply 4 coats of CA and apply boiled linseed oil prior to each CA application.</b>

3:Are you doing two barrel sections on the same mandrell at once?
<b>Both barrels on the mandrel at the same time. I can't remember the last time I glued the bushings to the mandrel...not since I stopped using thin CA for finishing.</b>

4: What speed are you using when you're applying your CA? I don't think I've ever seen where anyone has said how fast the lathe should be turning during the finishing stage.<b>I use the slowest speed my Jet VS will go, which is 500 rpm...that was when I first started. Now I apply the CA in the slowest speed in the mid-range of my Jet VS. As I finished more and more pens, I found I could do just as good with the slow speed in the mid range. But, in the beginning, when I finally slowed the lathe to its slowest speed, the finish started to click.</b>

5: No one has mentioned Micro-Mesh in this thread. <b>I use MM to 12000 prior to applying CA. After the finish is applied, I MM to 4000, then buff with tripoli, white diamond, and HUT Ultra-Gloss Plastic Polish followed by TSW. No need to MM to 12000 if the pen is going to be buffed with tripoli and white diamond. Tripoli and White diamond will be going backward from 12000 MM.</b>

6: I agree about the heat thing! Let the parts cool, frequently and thoroughly. For that matter, let yourself cool frequently (although not thoroughly). Consider these cooling-off breaks to be fine opportunities to go in the house for a cool drink or whatever.<b>Heat buildup doesn't seem to be as great when the thicker CA is used. Thin gets really HOT but medium and gap-filling don't seem to get as hot.</b>

Those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.<b>Everyone's thoughts are worth lots. It's the cumulative knowledge that we all share that allows us to conquer certain pen turning techniques. I don't know how many CA instructions I read nor now many times I read them when I was trying to learn to apply CA. There weren't many around 4 or 5 years ago. I could not get the finish to work. One day I reread what I had found and there it was...the secret that lead to my successful CA finish...apply the CA at the slowest speed your lathe will go. I had never seen that before! But, it had been there all the time.</b>

<b>Do a good turn daily!
Don</b>
 
Originally posted by its_virgil
<br />Originally posted by jtate
<br />Okay - several things:
<b>Okay Julia, several replies</b>
1: I've heard that the cellulose of which papertowels are made acts as an activator for CA and, therefore, it starts to dry and cure more rapidly when you use papertowels as applicators. I've had better luck using quilting batting folded into little applicators with masking tape handles at the end.<b>I've heard that too. This is going to sound like a broken record, but I've tried every material that has been suggested as an applicator or applying CA as a pen finish. I can only get consistent results with paper towels...not just any paper towel, but Bounty plain white ones. May just be me, but nothing else works for me. I've tried them all!</b>

2: Are you applying a layer of Boiled Linseed Oil prior to the CA? This seems to help me. I do that because I read that I ought to do that in an article from this website.<b>I apply 4 coats of CA and apply boiled linseed oil prior to each CA application.</b>

3:Are you doing two barrel sections on the same mandrell at once?
<b>Both barrels on the mandrel at the same time. I can't remember the last time I glued the bushings to the mandrel...not since I stopped using thin CA for finishing.</b>

4: What speed are you using when you're applying your CA? I don't think I've ever seen where anyone has said how fast the lathe should be turning during the finishing stage.<b>I use the slowest speed my Jet VS will go, which is 500 rpm...that was when I first started. Now I apply the CA in the slowest speed in the mid-range of my Jet VS. As I finished more and more pens, I found I could do just as good with the slow speed in the mid range. But, in the beginning, when I finally slowed the lathe to its slowest speed, the finish started to click.</b>

5: No one has mentioned Micro-Mesh in this thread. <b>I use MM to 12000 prior to applying CA. After the finish is applied, I MM to 4000, then buff with tripoli, white diamond, and HUT Ultra-Gloss Plastic Polish followed by TSW. No need to MM to 12000 if the pen is going to be buffed with tripoli and white diamond. Tripoli and White diamond will be going backward from 12000 MM.</b>

6: I agree about the heat thing! Let the parts cool, frequently and thoroughly. For that matter, let yourself cool frequently (although not thoroughly). Consider these cooling-off breaks to be fine opportunities to go in the house for a cool drink or whatever.<b>Heat buildup doesn't seem to be as great when the thicker CA is used. Thin gets really HOT but medium and gap-filling don't seem to get as hot.</b>

Those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.<b>Everyone's thoughts are worth lots. It's the cumulative knowledge that we all share that allows us to conquer certain pen turning techniques. I don't know how many CA instructions I read nor now many times I read them when I was trying to learn to apply CA. There weren't many around 4 or 5 years ago. I could not get the finish to work. One day I reread what I had found and there it was...the secret that lead to my successful CA finish...apply the CA at the slowest speed your lathe will go. I had never seen that before! But, it had been there all the time.</b>

<b>Do a good turn daily!
Don</b>
Click to expand...
1. I used a Viva paper towel
2. I did not use BLO, I was afraid of the drying factor, although I read where it makes it easier to apply the CA
3. Both barrels at the same time, although I just turned a new pen after waxing the bushings and mandrel with car wax and did not have a problem.
4 I applied the CA at the lowest lathe speed I have. 500 I think
5 MM at high speed to 12000, then applied carbuna and ren wax
6 I used thin first, but this time I waited for everything to cool down between steps

I basically used the Fangar method. What I did differently is I applied EEE right before I sealed the wood with sanding sealer. This seemed to clean up the blank some. I know its sort of sacrilege, but I liked the way the blank looked after using the EEE. After the EEE I sealed the blank and then MM with 4000 to 12000

I know the pen is far from perfect, but its getting better. Thanks again for everyones help



200682224754_tulip%20comfort%20CA2.jpg
<br />
 
Originally posted by GBusardo
<br />Lee,
Why would the blank now be dull if I had sanded through the CA? The blank was shiny before I used the CA. I was wondering how I would know if I had sanded through. What am I missing?
Thanks to all for your replies
Gary
Click to expand...

Gary,

I am a little late getting back on this but as to the finish being shiny - You can buff, polish, wax wood and have a very shiny finish, but it soon wears off and just shows a kind of satin finish. Many people like this satin finish and what they call the "real feel" of wood.

If you sand oily woods to 2000 grit sand paper or 8000/12000 MM they will often give a glossy shine after a coating of wax. BUT this will wear off to a satin sheen.

For me, when I shine up a pure wood finish and then add a couple of coats of thin CA, I can easily sand/buff through the thin layers of CA. IF I wax it without checking it carefully, I will buff it so that all of it looks shiny, not being able to see what is shiny because of a good CA finish and what is shiny because of wax and buffing. Then after a few days to a couple of weeks of handling, the buffed shine wears off of the wood, leaving it satin like and the CA shiny.

I did this very thing once when making a pen for a co-worker's birthday. I was embarassed after giving it to her in a very shiny state, and then watching the shine go away in spots after a couple of dozen people handled it. From this, I learned the lesson of putting several coats of CA if I wanted it to stay shiny - OR let it stay satin like if a person wanted a wood feel and look.
 
Thanks Lee, After I sealed the wood and MM I used two coats of thin CA and two coats of thick CA. If and when I get those dull spots, I will try and put another few coats of CA and give that a go. I have been my second CA finish pen at work now since yesterday, it does have a scratch on it, but the shine is holding up. I ordered a few kits from Dario's group buy and I wanted to be able to put a halfway decent finish on them.
Gary
 
You might also try using a medium or thick(viscosity) CA as a finish.
A seal coat is just that.Something to harden the surface so it can be sanded.
When the surface is level the subsequesnt "coats" are your finish coats.
Thin CA has a tendency to "run" and not build.
I don't care to add BLO to the process after seeing how it changed the color of a pen I intended to be blue and white.
Straight CA is about as clear as it gets showing only the colors of the wood beneath it.
(Note the color change of the white backround wood in the center of the lower section)
2005911113417_blue%20chain%20007.jpg
 
My mind might be warped, but one of the reasons I used a sealer after the EEE was my worry that whatever is in EEE would make it tough for the CA to stick. From my experience, just about everything sticks to shellac. I think for now, I will forgo the BLO, but I think I will try it in the future.
Eagle, do you think that the color change might be from the wood being softer in that area? At this point, I do not need any more variables [:)]
Thanks
Gary
 
Eagle, do you think that the color change might be from the wood being softer in that area?
Click to expand...
Nope.
As I look at the pen in person I has other areas of amber color in them. a few are visible in this picure, other than the on I pointed out.
 
Sometimes it takes several readings and several questions before the whole story comes out. I see a couple things that could be the source of your problem. The various techniques for using a CA finish have already been covered.

Cloudiness of any finish is usually a moisture related problem, and CA is no different. You mentioned that you worked in a cool damp basement. That would suggest that the moisture content of your wood could be quite high.

The heat from sanding would bring any excess moisture to the surface and it would cause a problem if you didn't let the wood cool to room temperature. I see the late cloudiness is a sure sign that the finish was applied to warm wood. You will have to allow sufficient time to let the moisture go back into the wood. This would take an overnight wait.

However, there is no assurance that the moisture will stay there. CA glue cures by an exothermic reaction, and the heat generated could be enough to bring the moisture back to the wood surface. If the moisture is absorbed into the CA finish, the cloudy appearance will be permanent. If it stays at the boundary between wood and glue, it may disappear, but bringing the finished pen out into a warmer and dryer climate will make the moisture migrate to the underside of the CA, and make for a cloudy appearance.

Whatever is happening, the solution will be to store your wood in a dryer atmosphere where it will have a lower moisture content. That won't totally solve the problem, but it will help.

You mentioned using sanding sealer under the CA glue. The thinners in the sanding sealer, whether they are alcohol or lacquer thinner, can cause a cloudy appearance in a CA glue finish. The cure for this is to allow the thinners sufficient time to totally evaporate, and that is at least overnight, and could be several days in the cool basement. The thinners have not evaporated until you can no longer smell them on the pen. And, the same wood moisture problems can occur under the sealer.

I question why you are using a sanding sealer under a CA glued finish, when an application of thin CA glue, that is wiped dry and sanded is a superior sealer for the wood and the perfect undercoat for the CA finish.

As for the sanding scratches, I would suggest a better light source so you can see them before they have been magnified by the finish. Most sanding scratch problems are caused by fluorescent lighting, which has no shadows, which means the scratches remain invisible on the bare wood. There is nothing like the harsh shadows from a 100w light bulb to make the sanding scratches visible. After tha, you will have to be more careful about removing the scratches from the previous grit as you go up through the finer sanding grits.

A paper towel is a perfectly good applicator for a CA finish, but it does act as a mild accelerator, and you have to be very fast if you are applying a thin CA with paper. I would recommend using a Medium CA if you are using paper towels for applicators. And, do as Don says - drop the lathe speed to 500 RPM for applying the CA finish. You will be glad you did.
 
Russ, Thanks for taking the time to write your reply! I now see why its so confusing to apply a CA finish and why so many people adopt there own regimen. I probably do have a moisture problem, which is a major reason why I shied away from using CA in the first place. I can't but help admiring the finishes, so I have to at least give it a try.
I used the sandinig sealer for two reasons. One, it is written in Fangers method and his work looks pretty darn good to me. The second is that I had used EEE polish to clean up the blank and I was afraid that there might be something in the polish that the CA would not like to stick to. The sealer is shellac base and that sticks to anything and lets anything stick to it. You had mentioned letting the sealer dry overnight, I let it dry for an hour or so, but maybe I am better off not using it at all. As far as the lighting goes, I have plenty, its the eyes that aren't so hot!!!
Gary
 
Most finishing schedules are sensitive to temperature and humidity, and the more complex they are, the more sensitive they will be. These are often the forgotten ingredients when we try to follow someone else's directions.
 
Originally posted by GBusardo
<br />Russ, I am going to take all my blanks out of the basement and put them in a drier spot. i guess that will be a start.
Thanks again
Gary
Click to expand...

Gary,

If you can find a small used microwave to use in your shop, that might be helpful. I used the one in my kitchen on a few blanks that I thought might have too much moisture. I let them cool down for at least an hour or more and then used them.

I agree fully with what Russ wrote above. IIRC Fangar is from the Sacramento area (might be mistaken) and that area is much dryer than coastal areas, Northwest, East coast or deep South. I do know that wood/furniture construction and finish techniques in high humidity areas must allow for a different environment than in dry areas. As Russ mentioned it applies to pen blanks and pen finishing also.
 
&lt;Click, light bulb over my head goes on&gt; I have an extra microwave stored away that my daughter used to use in a dorm room. Thats a good idea Hank. Besides, I got nothing to lose. (These re the times I wish I had invested in a moisture meter)
Thanks to everyone for their interest and input, I have learned a lot just from this thread
Gary
 
I have tried a different method of applying CA. I sand to 400 then apply Thin CA with a Q Tip with the lathe stopped. Use a little accelerator. Sand with 400 again and repeat. Then I start with MM and go to 4000. Had good success with a shine. Haven't tried buffing yet.
 
Originally posted by Orgtech
<br />I sand to 400 then apply Thin CA with a Q Tip...
Click to expand...
I think the applicator makes a difference. On my previous CA finishes, I used synthetic batting material ala Russ Fairfield, with great success. The other night, I used up one piece and couldn't remember where I stashed the bundle so I tried a plastic bag from a pen kit instead. Initially, it seemed to work well, but then I had difficulty getting the glue to set properly. I wound up sanding it all off and starting over twice. In the end, I discovered that the bag made it easy for me to apply too much glue. It was a little more challenging to apply thin coats, but when I did, the problem disappeared. With the batting (and I presume with a Q-Tip as well), one's natural tendency is to apply a thinner coat.

One coat of Thin CA and 4 thin coats of Thick CA with BLO really brought out the chatoyance of the Afzelia Burl I was working with.

Regards,
Eric
 
I have seen two similar but different defects in my CA finishes. One is a white cloudy coulour that usually shows up with the CA drying too quickly. The other defect is dull spots. The dull spots seems to come from the CA not flowing evenly across the blank.
For the cloudy defect there is good info on Loctite.com on why CA goes cloudy. It can be caused by high humidity, accellerator, and also the CA fumes can also lead to cloudiness. I find that my cloudy problems went away when I put a dust collector pick-up behind my blanks.
The dull deffect seems to be common on certain oily woods like African Blackwood. I have seen perfect coverage when the CA is initially applied then let the blank spin as the CA sets and the dull spots are there. It seems that CA does not like to stick to the oils in these problem woods. The only solution that works for me is to smooth the CA with BLO as it sets. This keeps the CA from flowing away from the oily patches.
Hope this helps,
Brad
 
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