CA Wood Finish

[Donal]

Can someone tell me the difference between CA glue and CA Wood Finish glue please? I think the "wood finish" element makes the CA more pliable so it is less prone to crack (but that's a bit of a guess)? My problem is that I can't seem to find a CA Wood Finish adhesive that is sold in the UK. So I am wondering how important it is to buy a CA specifically for a wood finish, instead of a standard CA? Perhaps there are CA glues in the UK that provide the wood finish, but they are not advertised as such?
Any helpful comments appreciated.

 

[lowsmith]

Hello Donal,
Others may have additional info, but for myself, I use exactly the same CA adhesive when finishing pens. The difference is that I use 2 different viscosity. I use 3 coats of a very thin CA which soaks into the pen blank. then I use 2 more coats of either medium or thick CA to add to the finish. allow them to cure between coats. then I sand back (be careful not to sand through the CA into the wood). Final buff and polish (I use EEE ultra shine and HUT crystal coat).
I have in the past just used "crazy glue" or loctite CA glue (a couple of coats) and it worked just fine.
I am curious if others have a preference for the pen finish specific CA products.

Scott Smith

 

[TonyL]

Is this what up are looking for? I bought it by accident as a pen finish.

FastCap 2P-10 SOLOKIT 2P10 Instant Wood Adhesive, Two Part, Adhesive Kit

FastCap 2P-10 SOLOKIT 2P10 Instant Wood Adhesive, Two Part, Adhesive Kit

www.woodworkerexpress.com

 

[darrin1200]

I have recently started using gluboost. It is a bit more costly, but so far it is my preference. It is formulated to be slightly flexible, and used quite extensively by luthiers. Their excellerator, is excellent as well. I used it and EZ bond accelerator side by side, and it was night and day.
I also used this flexible ca for a herringbone blank, and it worked flawlessly. No cracks or chip outs with catches.

I know CA is very much a personal preference. I still use EZ-Bond, but for a lot of the stuff I do now, I reach for the gluboost.

Its available in the UK

Gluboost Fill N Finish Thin 2oz | Tonetech Luthier Supplies

Gluboost Fill N Finish Thin 2oz bottle for pore filling and spot finishing

tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk

 

[magpens]

@darrin1200

Hi Darrin,

You say, with regard to the GluBoost accelerator, compared to the EZ-Bond accelerator :

"Their excellerator, is excellent as well. I used it and EZ bond accelerator side by side, and it was night and day. "

Can you please elaborate and say how the GluBoost accelerator was superior. . Thanks.

 

[leehljp]

It is my opinion that the "CA Wood Finish" was a term done by a creative ad agency.

I can't tell you how many "cleaning" products that my wife falls for because of the wording in advertisement, . . . and I tell her, just get some plain bleach or peroxide and water them down. There are dozens of cleaning products that have the same percentage of cleaners but they are worded differently to sell more products. LOML falls for every new ad. It still takes elbow grease!

That said, the CA industry has taken note that pen turners and some bowl turners are using CA as a FINISH. (in General, adding the word "finish" to the title means that they can charge more.) There are peculiarities that we like and on the big scale we are not that important (big) to the marketing industry, but they seem to have taken notice. That said, there is very little differences, IMO, across the line of different CAs. The best of CA Wood Finishes can be messed up easily and the worst of CA's can often be made to look great by one who has experience.

I started using "flexible" CA (and flexible epoxy) back around 2008-2009 (in Japan) for gluing in tubes into brittle wood (such as Snakewood), with the idea that flexibility in the glue might prevent some cracking due to quickly changing humidity and heat swings. The flexible glues back then were opaque - white, grey/gray, or black.

Now they are making flexible clear. These flexible clears do not appear to be nearly as flexible as the two kinds that I used back in '08-09, but for brittle wood or high humidity changes or heat situations, it seems like some "give"might make the flexible CA better suited to wood.

BUT, the greatest problem to overcome is not the kind of CA, but 1. the experience of applying, knowing the CA that you use, and knowing how to finish it. This forum has produced many great pen makers (most have left and moved on to professional offerings) and they can make most any CA look great, last long and endure, . . . and time has proven that. In Other Words: New products will not improve the finish nearly as much as experience will.

 

[jttheclockman]

I agree with Hank 100%. Marketing strategy and that is all.

 

[Dehn0045]

Thin CA is essentially all the same (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_cyanoacrylate), however the different brands have different purity and quality standards. The biggest impact to Thin CA quality is shelf life - especially after a container is open. Moisture is an initiator for the chemical reaction, if an open bottle absorbs moisture it will cause a small amount of reactions that then makes the resulting glue in the bottle less reactive. The limit is between 6 months and a year, but this all depends on a lot of factors.

Once you start getting into medium/thick CA or others with special "Flex" additives (like GluBoost) then the compositions become much more varied. Traditional medium/thick use methly methacrylate (the stuff that makes Plexiglass) as a thickening agent. I'm not exactly sure of the chemistry, but the adhesive is thicker and takes longer to cure. This is where you start to need accelerators, of which there are at least two main categories. Toni has done a good write-up on CA here: https://www.claypenblanks.com/what-is-polymer-clay/ca-finishing-101.html

I personally use only BSI thin. This minimizes my need for accelerator and I have not had problems with cracking - but I don't recommend dropping a wood pen with a CA finish. I have used Stick-fast accelerator aerosol, which seems super aggressive. After reading Toni's article I decided to try BSI Insta-Set accelerator which I got in a spray bottle, the BSI accelerator is much more mild and I don't like it as much as the Stick-Fast.

 

[jttheclockman]

Thin CA is essentially all the same (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_cyanoacrylate), however the different brands have different purity and quality standards. The biggest impact to Thin CA quality is shelf life - especially after a container is open. Moisture is an initiator for the chemical reaction, if an open bottle absorbs moisture it will cause a small amount of reactions that then makes the resulting glue in the bottle less reactive. The limit is between 6 months and a year, but this all depends on a lot of factors.

Once you start getting into medium/thick CA or others with special "Flex" additives (like GluBoost) then the compositions become much more varied. Traditional medium/thick use methly methacrylate (the stuff that makes Plexiglass) as a thickening agent. I'm not exactly sure of the chemistry, but the adhesive is thicker and takes longer to cure. This is where you start to need accelerators, of which there are at least two main categories. Toni has done a good write-up on CA here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_cyanoacrylate

I personally use only BSI thin. This minimizes my need for accelerator and I have not had problems with cracking - but I don't recommend dropping a wood pen with a CA finish. I have used Stick-fast accelerator aerosol, which seems super aggressive. After reading Toni's article I decided to try BSI Insta-Set accelerator which I got in a spray bottle, the BSI accelerator is much more mild and I don't like it as much as the Stick-Fast.

Just a correction in this, It was Toni's husband Ed Street that did the intensive study on CA glues. I looked for the article here but could not find it. So I pulled this off Toni's site if you are interested in reading about CA glues.

https://www.claypenblanks.com/what-is-polymer-clay/ca-finishing-101.html

 

[Dehn0045]

Just a correction in this, It was Toni's husband Ed Street that did the intensive study on CA glues. I looked for the article here but could not find it. So I pulled this off Toni's site if you are interested in reading about CA glues.

https://www.claypenblanks.com/what-is-polymer-clay/ca-finishing-101.html

Thanks JT, I corrected the link in my post -- I intended to link to Toni's website but I goofed up. Thanks for the correction, I didn't see an author on the article and I know it has been shared before here, I just assumed that it was Toni's. In any case, it is good information, my go-to article on CA finish.

One other thing that I will mention is that both "types" of accelerator seem to use the same active ingredient (N,N Dimethyl-P-Toluidine) it is just the solvent that is different. Glu-boost doesn't show Toluidine on their accelerator SDS, so it might be different.

Also both mercury flex and glu-boost both use dibutyl phthalate as an additive for "flex" (this was noted on IAP previously). That doesn't mean they are the same, just their primary components are the same.

 

[Alan Morrison]

Hello Donal
If you havent already check out the uk penturners forum ( www.penturners.co.uk ) and look for Phil Dart's process for using melamine lacquer and carnauba wax if you prefer a less 'plasticy' finish that you get with CA.
Alan

 

[Donal]

Hi All and thank you,

I am new to this forum (and pen making) and I have to say I am impressed by all the great responses and helpful suggestions I have received and the information shared so promptly. I think I'm not going to worry about some CA calling itself a 'wood finish' and others that omit it. I did wonder if it was just marketing hype.

There is so much more in the replies for me to think about, it will take me a little while to follow the links and digest it all! Thanks so much.

One last word, if I may. I do wish I didn't need to coat a wonderful natural product in plastic to make it durable; it's not my preference, but I thought I would try it. So thank you Alan for suggesting the melamine lacquer and carnauba wax approach. I'll probably be back with a question on this in due course. In the meantime thanks again for all your responses.

Kind regards,
Donal

 

[jttheclockman]

Thanks JT, I corrected the link in my post -- I intended to link to Toni's website but I goofed up. Thanks for the correction, I didn't see an author on the article and I know it has been shared before here, I just assumed that it was Toni's. In any case, it is good information, my go-to article on CA finish.

One other thing that I will mention is that both "types" of accelerator seem to use the same active ingredient (N,N Dimethyl-P-Toluidine) it is just the solvent that is different. Glu-boost doesn't show Toluidine on their accelerator SDS, so it might be different.

Also both mercury flex and glu-boost both use dibutyl phthalate as an additive for "flex" (this was noted on IAP previously). That doesn't mean they are the same, just their primary components are the same.

Have to tell you I do not like this new site. It is so hard to find things and doing searches sometimes only takes you back a couple years. The library is difficult to follow. But we all live with it and try to cope. I tried looking for the thread that Ed started this quest to find the most info on CA glues because it always came up. I had to hand it to him he did a great job with it too and I believe he had a file in the library somewhere but I could not find it. He was controversial and I had my share of run ins with him but he had his moments and this was one.

 

[jttheclockman]

Hi All and thank you,

I am new to this forum (and pen making) and I have to say I am impressed by all the great responses and helpful suggestions I have received and the information shared so promptly. I think I'm not going to worry about some CA calling itself a 'wood finish' and others that omit it. I did wonder if it was just marketing hype.

There is so much more in the replies for me to think about, it will take me a little while to follow the links and digest it all! Thanks so much.

One last word, if I may. I do wish I didn't need to coat a wonderful natural product in plastic to make it durable; it's not my preference, but I thought I would try it. So thank you Alan for suggesting the melamine lacquer and carnauba wax approach. I'll probably be back with a question on this in due course. In the meantime thanks again for all your responses.

Kind regards,
Donal

Just to clarify something, any top coat is just that, a top coat and will feel plastic weather it is poly or lacquer or CA. It will not have the feel of real wood. It just can't. Now with that said there are methods that can lessen the feel of heavy plastic by limiting the amount of coats applied and also cutting the sheen down by methods of sanding back. But all come with a price of sacrifice one way or other. Being a pen is handled often and the oils of a person's hands which can vary from person to person can destroy the look of a pen especially wood pens, is why we need to top coat. We make pens that are pieces of art or something that is handmade and not found in stores. Their use is left to the buyer. But we try to sell a product that can stand the test of time and some of the abuse it will endure. Looking for and finding that perfect finish I believe is something that is still unreached but various methods and materials are being tried. If and when that perfect finish is found it will be worth $$$$. Have at it. and Good luck.

 

[darrin1200]

@darrin1200

Hi Darrin,

You say, with regard to the GluBoost accelerator, compared to the EZ-Bond accelerator :

"Their excellerator, is excellent as well. I used it and EZ bond accelerator side by side, and it was night and day. "

Can you please elaborate and say how the GluBoost accelerator was superior. . Thanks.

I was gluing up pieces for my herringbone blanks. I put CA on the edge of one piece then fitted it to the second, to form an "L". I then hit it with accelerator, I tried each separately of course, and the with the EZ-bond I had to essentially soak the area and it still took time to harden. When I used the GluBoost, it was a quick, split second spray, and the piece hardened within a couple of seconds.
Also when using it as a finish, even on the 3rd coat of the medium, it hardened in seconds with the Gluboost, while the EZ-bond still took a couple of minutes to be no longer tacky.

This is just what I have personally found. Its not a scientific trial or anything, but I am happy enough to fork out the money for the Gluboost.

 

[robutacion]

I was gluing up pieces for my herringbone blanks. I put CA on the edge of one piece then fitted it to the second, to form an "L". I then hit it with accelerator, I tried each separately of course, and the with the EZ-bond I had to essentially soak the area and it still took time to harden. When I used the GluBoost, it was a quick, split second spray, and the piece hardened within a couple of seconds.
Also when using it as a finish, even on the 3rd coat of the medium, it hardened in seconds with the Gluboost, while the EZ-bond still took a couple of minutes to be no longer tacky.

This is just what I have personally found. Its not a scientific trial or anything, but I am happy enough to fork out the money for the Gluboost.

I would like to make a small explanation to what possible has happened to the EZ accelerator, and from my own experience, when the accelerator starts to change colour to yellow(ish) is the first sign it is starting to get old and that changes significantly its results compared to fresh product.

Cheers
George

 

[magpens]

I was gluing up pieces for my herringbone blanks. I put CA on the edge of one piece then fitted it to the second, to form an "L". I then hit it with accelerator, I tried each separately of course, and the with the EZ-bond I had to essentially soak the area and it still took time to harden. When I used the GluBoost, it was a quick, split second spray, and the piece hardened within a couple of seconds.
Also when using it as a finish, even on the 3rd coat of the medium, it hardened in seconds with the Gluboost, while the EZ-bond still took a couple of minutes to be no longer tacky.

This is just what I have personally found. Its not a scientific trial or anything, but I am happy enough to fork out the money for the Gluboost.

@darrin1200

Darrin, I was going to suggest (as George has) that maybe your EZ-Bond (either glue or accelerator) was "old". . I don't use EZ-Bond, but I get my CA and accelerator from a local company called KMS Tools and it is a product from .... www.bsi-inc.com .... and it works just fine. . I use that CA for everything, including both gluing and finishing my pens.

I once tried the CA glue sold by Lee Valley and it did not perform very well. . I could be wrong, but I think it was EZ-Bond.

 

[darrin1200]

That is possible with the accelerator. I may get a new bottle to compare.

 

[lowsmith]

Hi All and thank you,

I am new to this forum (and pen making) and I have to say I am impressed by all the great responses and helpful suggestions I have received and the information shared so promptly. I think I'm not going to worry about some CA calling itself a 'wood finish' and others that omit it. I did wonder if it was just marketing hype.

There is so much more in the replies for me to think about, it will take me a little while to follow the links and digest it all! Thanks so much.

One last word, if I may. I do wish I didn't need to coat a wonderful natural product in plastic to make it durable; it's not my preference, but I thought I would try it. So thank you Alan for suggesting the melamine lacquer and carnauba wax approach. I'll probably be back with a question on this in due course. In the meantime thanks again for all your responses.

Kind regards,
Donal

Donal, one final thought. the first few pens I made (and some since) I have simply sanded and then used EEE ultra shine (polishing paste similar to yorkshire grit) and Hut Crystal Coat. gives them a nice shiny finish, but not plastic-y and you can really get a feel of the wood and the grain. This is also essentially how I finish acrylic pens (but with more sanding and polishing beforehand)

Hope this helps. be safe
cheers

Scott

 

[mick]

It is my opinion that the "CA Wood Finish" was a term done by a creative ad agency.

I can't tell you how many "cleaning" products that my wife falls for because of the wording in advertisement, . . . and I tell her, just get some plain bleach or peroxide and water them down. There are dozens of cleaning products that have the same percentage of cleaners but they are worded differently to sell more products. LOML falls for every new ad. It still takes elbow grease!

That said, the CA industry has taken note that pen turners and some bowl turners are using CA as a FINISH. (in General, adding the word "finish" to the title means that they can charge more.) There are peculiarities that we like and on the big scale we are not that important (big) to the marketing industry, but they seem to have taken notice. That said, there is very little differences, IMO, across the line of different CAs. The best of CA Wood Finishes can be messed up easily and the worst of CA's can often be made to look great by one who has experience.

I started using "flexible" CA (and flexible epoxy) back around 2008-2009 (in Japan) for gluing in tubes into brittle wood (such as Snakewood), with the idea that flexibility in the glue might prevent some cracking due to quickly changing humidity and heat swings. The flexible glues back then were opaque - white, grey/gray, or black.

Now they are making flexible clear. These flexible clears do not appear to be nearly as flexible as the two kinds that I used back in '08-09, but for brittle wood or high humidity changes or heat situations, it seems like some "give"might make the flexible CA better suited to wood.

BUT, the greatest problem to overcome is not the kind of CA, but 1. the experience of applying, knowing the CA that you use, and knowing how to finish it. This forum has produced many great pen makers (most have left and moved on to professional offerings) and they can make most any CA look great, last long and endure, . . . and time has proven that. In Other Words: New products will not improve the finish nearly as much as experience will.

It is my opinion that the "CA Wood Finish" was a term done by a creative ad agency.

I can't tell you how many "cleaning" products that my wife falls for because of the wording in advertisement, . . . and I tell her, just get some plain bleach or peroxide and water them down. There are dozens of cleaning products that have the same percentage of cleaners but they are worded differently to sell more products. LOML falls for every new ad. It still takes elbow grease!

That said, the CA industry has taken note that pen turners and some bowl turners are using CA as a FINISH. (in General, adding the word "finish" to the title means that they can charge more.) There are peculiarities that we like and on the big scale we are not that important (big) to the marketing industry, but they seem to have taken notice. That said, there is very little differences, IMO, across the line of different CAs. The best of CA Wood Finishes can be messed up easily and the worst of CA's can often be made to look great by one who has experience.

I started using "flexible" CA (and flexible epoxy) back around 2008-2009 (in Japan) for gluing in tubes into brittle wood (such as Snakewood), with the idea that flexibility in the glue might prevent some cracking due to quickly changing humidity and heat swings. The flexible glues back then were opaque - white, grey/gray, or black.

Now they are making flexible clear. These flexible clears do not appear to be nearly as flexible as the two kinds that I used back in '08-09, but for brittle wood or high humidity changes or heat situations, it seems like some "give"might make the flexible CA better suited to wood.

BUT, the greatest problem to overcome is not the kind of CA, but 1. the experience of applying, knowing the CA that you use, and knowing how to finish it. This forum has produced many great pen makers (most have left and moved on to professional offerings) and they can make most any CA look great, last long and endure, . . . and time has proven that. In Other Words: New products will not improve the finish nearly as much as experience will.

I agree with your statement about it being more experience than the brand of CA we use. I've used EZ Bond thick to glue in tubes and thin for my finishing exclusivity. It took me a while to do it but now I can get the same finish everytime and in any season. I use the same application technique. Bounty half sheet paper towels and the same number of coats.... oh and green socks. Works everytime!
Said all that to say this, use one kind of finish and sho it the same way you'll eventually get the same finish consistently.


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