CA reacting to certain woods?

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NotURMailman

NotURMailman

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Last night I turned a Cigar Pen from a piece of Flaming Box Elder. The box elder was non-cooperative and difficult as usual. I decided that I would go ahead and finish with CA as well as saturating the barrel ends because this piece was partciularly crumbly.

About 5 seconds after the tin CA that I sed to soak the bare wood hit the surface and started to penetrate, thick white fumes began pouring from the wood. The smell knocked me back. My eyes were watering like crazy, dust mask and all. I have never had this happen with CA before.

Is it just a reaction to the wood in some way? I have the shop vac pulling air from just above the work piece as I am doing this, m wearing a dust mask, and have a ceiling fan on, not to mention that I am mostly outside (two brick walls and two screen walls).

I just found it odd...
 
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I find that CA smokes like that when it hits moisture. I wear a power ventilated hood/facemask and the fumes still get in to bother me. I'm guessing that those fumes are very probably bad for us, so be careful and try to avoid them.

Jim Smith
 
I have experienced a similar reaction with corn cob. Never on wood to that extent. I think it may have to do with how porous the material is and the moisture content. You say the piece you were working was crumbly. So was the cob I was turning. I am guessing that the CA soaked in and reacted with the moisture in the piece. Maybe, maybe not. Please be careful though. The fumes are bad and the cob I was working seemed hot enough to flame.
 
I,ve had some strange reaction with a wood/pr hybrid blank. Theres several species of wood in the blank and one species was refusing to take the CA. I swapped CA brands and viscosity with accelerator, hey presto sorted. As for the fumes i,ve had this too, be careful of them, you can get them on bone dry wood in the height of summer. They are definitely not good for you.
 
I've had CA smoke like that before. Most recently with some very soft and unstabelized Buckeye Burl.

I don't know the why, but experience says the softer and more "spongey" the material, the more like you are to get those vapors. Keep air moving over the price to blow or pull the fumes away from you!
 
I have two flaming box elder (FBE) pens with CA finishes and have not experienced the smoking. Both pieces had very low moisture content (I have lots of fresh box elder and monitor the moisture content frequently). I suspect, as others have noted, that there was a good bit of moisture in the blank.

BTW, IMHO FBE pens look great with a CA finish. (Sorry, no pix. Can't get the photos down to an acceptable size for uploading.)
 
CA will do that every time regardless of the wood you use. It's the exothermic reaction of the CA curing. A VOC filter is essential if you want to have lung tissue in your future.
 
I'm sure it's some kind of chemical reaction. And I'm sure one of the chemical engineering guys here at work would love to explain it to me. But, we try to stay on our mechanical engineering side, they get too excited when we ask them questions... LOL!

I've never seen it to that extreme, usually the vac, fan, and mask are enough that I don't even smell it. And I've never seen that volume of fumes. Could have been moisture content, but that wood seemed really dry.
 
Totally normal reaction when dealing with punky wood . Very high surface area leads to very rapid cure , even at below 6 % moisture . Just use good ventilation and keep your eyes and nose some distance away when using CA on soft wood or other material .
 
That makes sense, the CA soaking in to the wood would cause it to contact more surface area than when it just sits on the surface and therefor multiply the reaction.
 
For those of you who still don't believe...
This is an exceprt from a DOD letter dated 1993 on using CA fuming for fingerprint retrival...Yes, it's exothermic, yes, it happens on any surface, and yes...it's bad for you!

"Several safety lectures on latent print processing were presented at the International Symposium on the Forensic Aspects of Latent Prints at the FBI Academy last week. Mr. Michael E. Barsan of the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) presented a one hour lecture outlining his recently completed survey (HETA 92-147) involving cyanoacrylate fuming in laboratory and field conditions. NIOSH tested both normal laboratory (fume hood and large cabinet/open room) and the most extreme non-laboratory (fuming an entire car under plastic in a garage) conditions.
The gist of the NIOSH and other presentations confirmed our safety recommendations for cyanoacrylate fuming as published to military investigators. Cyanoacrylate fuming has been performed worldwide by police for the last seventeen years. In talking with my peers from Japan, Israel, Russia, Australia, Canada, United Kingdom, etc., it is apparent that the health guidelines outlined in my second paragraph above are embraced worldwide.
All police agencies can cite instances of rooms evacuated and persons getting a "face full" of cyanoacrylate fumes from poorly ventilated conditions. However, reported injuries involving cyanoacrylate fuming occur from burns due to inadvertent touching of hot metal surfaces the glue is sometimes heated on, or from burns (normally first or second degree) due to the exothermic reaction of cyanoacrylate with cotton clothing (compounded by the adhesion of the hot, glue impregnated cloth to underlying skin). We firmly direct investigators NOT to use hot plates and we suggest investigators use small containers of cyanoacrylate to minimize potential skin and clothing contact.
One significant cyanoacrylate fuming health note was brought to my attention during a personal conversation with delegates from Scotland. Although polymers are known to sometimes sensitize people on even the very first exposure, the only known occurrence involving cyanoacrylate fuming has been documented in Scotland. A latent print examiner in Fife was sensitized by cyanoacrylate fumes and can no longer tolerate any exposure. His symptoms ceased without continued exposure and his work assignment has been adjusted to preclude further contact. "
 
While I am not a fan of Wiki, I am trying to learn more about CA, now that we have taken over for Mannie (Monty)!! So, here is some info that is similar to what I have read on the MSDS, but in "street language" instead of chemical verbage:

Toxicity

The fumes from CA are a vaporized form of the cyanoacrylate monomer that irritate sensitive membranes in the eyes, nose, and throat. They are immediately polymerized by the moisture in the membranes and become inert. These risks can be minimized by using CA in well ventilated areas. About 5% of the population can become sensitized to CA fumes after repeated exposure, resulting in flu-like symptoms.[15] It may also act as a skin irritant and may cause an allergic skin reaction. The ACGIH assign a Threshold Limit Value exposure limit of 200 parts per billion. On rare occasions, inhalation may trigger asthma. There is no singular measurement of toxicity for all cyanoacrylate adhesives as there is a wide variety of adhesives that contain various cyanoacrylate formulations.
The United States National Toxicology Program and the United Kingdom Health and Safety Executive have concluded that the use of ethyl cyanoacrylate is safe and that additional study is unnecessary.[16] 2-octyl cyanoacrylate degrades much more slowly due to its longer organic backbone that slows the degradation of the adhesive enough to remain below the threshold of tissue toxicity. Due to the toxicity issues of ethyl cyanoacrylate, the use of 2-octyl cyanoacrylate for sutures is preferred.
Reaction with cotton

Applying cyanoacrylate to some materials made of cotton or wool (such as cotton swabs, cotton balls, and certain yarns or fabrics) results in a powerful, rapid exothermic reaction. The heat released may cause serious burns,[17] ignite the cotton product, or release irritating white smoke. Material Safety Data Sheets for cyanoacrylate instruct users not to wear cotton or wool clothing, especially cotton gloves, when applying or handling cyanoacrylates.[18]
Solvents and debonders

Acetone, commonly found in nail polish remover, is a widely available solvent capable of softening cured cyanoacrylate.[19] Other solvents include nitromethane, dimethyl sulfoxide, and methylene chloride.[20] gamma-Butyrolactone may also be used to remove cured cyanoacrylate.[21] Commercial debonders are also available.[22]




All the information I have read concludes that the fumes are an irritant, but not toxic. However they CAN be linked to asthma is some cases of continued exposure.
 
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Regarding toxicity. I have experienced the flu like symptoms after a night of gluing tubes with no protection. Organic mask works great! 3m dual element organic vapor half mask. Fumes still get in eye with face shield. Need a positive pressure unit to prevent that so I just don't look straight over glue.

I deleted my toxicity cement because I can also post from wiki.
 
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This was the quote I was looking for: (From a CA vendor's website)

Are cyanoacrylates or their fumes toxic?
CA PLUS cyanoacrylate adhesives are not toxic. The fumes from cyanoacrylate adhesives can vaporize and do irritate sensitive membranes like eyes, nose and throat. When these fumes come in contact with moist surfaces they are immediately polymerized and become inert. They do not penetrate into human tissue. Some cyanoacrylates are used in place of sutures and the cured adhesive usually falls off in a matter of days. There are many applications where cyanoacrylates have been used to graft skin, bond bone and cartilage, repair eye tissue, close blood vessels and stop spinal fluid leaks. Cyanoacrylate fumes are also used by police and investigative departments around the world to locate and identify fingerprints. A small percentage of the population can become sensitized to cyanoacrylates/fumes after repeated exposure (like cat hair or anything else). These sensitized people can develop flu-like symptoms but removing them from the exposure will eliminate the symptoms. Cyanoacrylates or their fumes are not carcinogenic and cyanoacrylates are not made from cyanide.


As I said above, I am attempting to LEARN about CA. So, I have been reading different websites and MSDS information. I am NOT trying to be an "expert", just quoting information put forth by others and hoping to learn more!!
 
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