CA Finish

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jusaf

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Jun 17, 2009
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I've read the tutorials in the Library section about using CA as a finish on pens. I have tried to use this but I don't seem to be getting it right. I get pieces of the paper towl coming off and sticking on the blanks. How long am I supposed to wait between coats of CA? Is there anyone that lives on the Hawaiian island of Ohau that would be willing to get together and show me what I am doing wrong? When using CA as a finish, is it a must to also use BLO? Has anyone tried using CA for a few coats then apply a friction polish? Just wondering.

Jim
 
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Hi Jim, no it is not necessary to use BLO. Are you using any accelerator in between your coats of CA? Wipe the blank with accelerator and then immediately apply a coat of CA. Continue this process through thin and then med. A little trick I learned from Mesquiteman using the accelerator as a wipe on before coats. There should not be much of any wait time inbetween coats.
 
And do not leave the paper on the blank to long. I only leave it on long enough to apply the CA unless I am doing a CA/BLO, different story. Concentrate on learning one method at a time.
 
I don't use an accelerator, but do the CA finish on almost all of my pens. No BLO either, but I will squeeze the CA glue onto the pen blank, then turn the lathe by hand while moving the paper towel from side to side. Like tim said, just long enough to spread out the glue. You can feel when it starts to cure on the paper towel and rubs differently on the blank. If you keep going, it will stick. Then I walk away and leave it for a few minutes minimum. I'd give it 5 minutes. I continue this with several coats. Sometimes I will sand in between to smooth it out some. Finish it off with micro mesh and plastic polish. smooth as glass...
 
I wasn't turning the lathe by hand when putting on the CA. Does it matter if it is thin or medium CA? I've been using medium.

Jim
 
I THINK mine is thin, but I don't know for sure. Just regular super glue that I picked up at Home Depot. Doesn't the thin take the longest to cure? That's what I'd use to make sure you have time to spread it on before it starts to cure. Is your paper towel sticking after you apply a coat and are rubbing it on or when you just start to apply the next coat and it's sticking to the previous coat?
 
jusaf said:
I wasn't turning the lathe by hand when putting on the CA. Does it matter if it is thin or medium CA? I've been using medium.

Jim
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I use thick, and I put a small glob on the papertowel and then run it across the blank while it is spinning on the lathe. Too much and the glue flings off and leaves splatter marks ont he blank, too little and you get a half finished blank! I do this just fast enough, but not too fast. It takes a couple tries to get the size of the glob and the timing right. I then hit it with accelerator, and start the process over again. 3 or 4 coats is usually enough to give a gloss finish and be able to sand out any ridges or bumps. I think blank preparation is the key though. I probably spend more time on sanding the blank then anything else. I usually dry sand up to 1000 grit, and then after applying the CA I go through the micromesh series wet.

I was really worried the first time I tried it after hearing horror stories. It's worked pretty well so far, and if I had a decent camera I'd take a picture. I worked this process out after trying to "burn in" a CA finish and realized that it was trying to kill me. Now I don't use any pressure other than what is necessary to get the CA on the blank. I also stand off to the side of the lathe to avoid fumes and slinging CA everywhere.
 
I've never used the MM wet. Does using MM wet cause any problems when using it dry later? I think that I might have put too much CA on the blank. I was also applying too much pressure when putting on the CA. Good thing I am using scrap wood to practice. In the past, I have used only sanding sealer and friction polish on my pens. It just didn't give the nice gloss that I really wanted. I'm hoping that the CA will give that gloss.

Jim
 
jusaf said:
I've never used the MM wet. Does using MM wet cause any problems when using it dry later? I think that I might have put too much CA on the blank. I was also applying too much pressure when putting on the CA. Good thing I am using scrap wood to practice. In the past, I have used only sanding sealer and friction polish on my pens. It just didn't give the nice gloss that I really wanted. I'm hoping that the CA will give that gloss.

Jim
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I personally would not use MM dry ever. Wetsanding does not affect the micromesh, and will actually probably make it last longer. You use the water ( a lot of it on the blank...a whole lot) as a carrier to flush out the dust and grit caused by the sanding process. If you see it getting dry, apply more water. If you didn't, you could risk the chance of scratching your finish which defeats the purpose of the higher/fine grit in the first place. Also a drop of dawn dish washing detergent in the water will cut the surface tension of the water on the blank and allow for quicker, better quality sanding.

If you want experience wetsanding go to a body shop. But trust me when I say from experience that a pen is a heck of a lot easier to wet sand than a car! :biggrin:

CA as a finish is a good finish, but for me, I don't personally think a lot of people are doing it correctly trying to "burn it" in. I prefer to build up thicker layers of the finish and then sand out the defects if there are any. This is the same way any other quality paint job is finished. Whether it is a car or a desk or a pen it does not matter. Some people prefer to sand between coats of CA. I do not do this unless I notice a very bad defect in the previous coat.

Here is another tip I learned the hard way. Wax whatever your using be it bushings, or in my instance a bottle stopper mandrel with a high quality wax that does not contain silicone. It helps the finish release easier from the bushings and you will not have glued your pen to your bushings for the most part. If your very sloppy with the CA it won't help, but I've noticed it has helped me seperate the pieces easier.
 
I'll give the wax a shot. I had a bushing stick to the blank yesterday. It came off quick. I'll also try the wet sanding with MM. I've only turned about 20 pens so I am still a rookie. I'm trying to learn all that I can. Some can be learned from others, but some has to be learned by doing it. I do appreciate all of the advice that I get here.

Jim
 
I've never used the MM wet either. I dry sand with the micromesh and then use the plastic polish. The plastic polish is what really makes it shine. But I usually use denatured alcohol to clean it before applying the polish and possibly between some of the MM grist as well.
 
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The best advice I can give you about CA finishing is not to follow everyone else's advice. Round over a pile of sticks and practice until you find some mixture of the variables that works for you. Try it with thin CA only (no BLO). Thin CA with BLO. Fast lathe speed, slow lathe speed. Sand between steps, don't sand between steps. Medium or thick, etc., etc. It won't take as long as it might seem for you to hit upon a process that produces good results for you. Lots of people on this board have had great results with systems that don't work for me no matter how hard I try. Likewise, my system probably wouldn't work for the majority of others.
 
Here is how I apply my CA Finish:

After turning, I sand down my piece to 320. I apply a coat of thin CA by folding a paper napkin in thirds, holding it below the spinning pen barrel, and running a bead of thin CA glue between the napkin and the barrel. The lathe is running at about 600 at this point.

I shoot the spinning barrel with Aresol CA Accelerator. Wait for 10 seconds, then sand with 400g paper. I repeat this process. This prepares my barrel for the CA top coats.

Again using the paper napkin, I apply 3 coats of thin CA with accelerator in between. I then apply 3-4 coats of Thick CA glue by making a bead of glue on the paper napkin that spans the width of the napkin. Then I rub the barrel with the glue to cover it. CA Accelerator between coats.

Once this is done, I hit the barrels with 320g dry to knock down any defects in the top coat. Then 400g dry. Then I MicroMesh wet through 12000. I check the barrels every 2-3 MM pads to make sure I'm getting all the scratches out and that there are no defects in the finish. If there are scratches, I back up a couple of MM pads - if there are defects, I sand out the finish and start over. When I MM, I make sure that I'm not applying a lot of pressure to the barrels through the MM pads, I simply let it ride with about as much pressure as you would use to hit the space bar on your keyboard.

From there, after I have finished up to 12000, I'll pull the barrells off, check the ends for chips, and assemble. I use paste wax on the bushings, or use delryn(sp?) bushings. Beeswax would work fine too.

Good luck...
 
I can't remember when I was given this method, but it seems to work very well. I place a piece of 1.5" masking tape over the index finger of my right hand, put a couple drops of CA on the blank. I spread it with my index finger without the lathe running. Just manually turn the headstock---work quickly.

Try it. For me it has made the CA finish no more difficult than any other part of the process.
 
I found something that works for me. I put on 3 coats of medium CA. I applied it with the lathe off and turned it manually. After all 3 coats, I used a plastic polish. The finish turned out very nice. I did notice some flaws but it was due to me not doing my normal sanding process on the wood. I'll give it another shot and go through me entire process and see how it works. Thank you all for the advice and suggestions.
 
There is a copy of the Woodworkers Journal article on application of a CA finish farther down the page. The y made it sound easy and we all laughed at that; but the reality is that CA is an easy finish to use. Most people have a problem with using too much of everything, including sanding too much. Many only think they have a problem because they expect CA to work like a friction polish and leave a slick gloss without any further sanding and polishing - it won't and it does require sanding and polishing to whatever gloss you want.

The Woodworkers Journal article is at:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49749

I have also posted an article on how I use CA with and without Boiled Linseed Oil on my websiate at:

http://www.woodturnerruss.com/PenPages-FinishingPens-CAglue.html
 
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I used wax paper to apply CA to pen today. I noticed that it was more bumpy and not as smooth as when I used a paper towel. I tried to lightly sand it out but wound up making a mess of the pen. Good thing it was a practice blank and not a good one. When I used paper towels, I noticed little puffs of smoke coming from the towel. Is this a reaction from the CA? Normal or not? Wondering if I should try some different brands of towels.

I ordered a new mandrel and bushings today. I have two mandrels but the first one had a slight bend to it when I bought everything. (Got lathe, tools, mandrels, etc used on craigslist). The second mandrel was working good but I noticed the last couple of pens that I made, they just seemed off. The mandrel appeared to be a little off. I figured it was better to buy a new one than to keep going with one that may or may not be off. I've been making lots of comfort pens. The bushings for that one have gotten worn down with all of the use. Needed new ones. Not quite experienced enough to make a pen between centers yet.

Jim
 
jusaf said:
I used wax paper to apply CA to pen today. I noticed that it was more bumpy and not as smooth as when I used a paper towel. I tried to lightly sand it out but wound up making a mess of the pen. Good thing it was a practice blank and not a good one. When I used paper towels, I noticed little puffs of smoke coming from the towel. Is this a reaction from the CA? Normal or not? Wondering if I should try some different brands of towels.
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This reaction is normal. Just make sure to ave your dust collector on to suck away the fumes or a fan to blow the fumes away from you.

jusaf said:
I ordered a new mandrel and bushings today. I have two mandrels but the first one had a slight bend to it when I bought everything. (Got lathe, tools, mandrels, etc used on craigslist). The second mandrel was working good but I noticed the last couple of pens that I made, they just seemed off. The mandrel appeared to be a little off. I figured it was better to buy a new one than to keep going with one that may or may not be off. I've been making lots of comfort pens. The bushings for that one have gotten worn down with all of the use. Needed new ones. Not quite experienced enough to make a pen between centers yet.Jim
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If you can turn using a mandrel, you can turn between centers. It's actually easier IMNSHO. Invest in good bushings from JohnnyCNC and you'll never go back to the cheapo stock bushings.
 
For me thin CA does not work at all ... all I get are bumps and ridges. That is why I only use it once (rotate blanks on hand, paper towel left and right). I get best results with 3 layers of medium CA (3 drops per blank - on the paper towel), 300 rpm, accelator not needed but it helps, light sanding wiht 320 sandpaper and then 3 or 4 layers of thich Ca (3 drops per blank).

I put the CA on the towel, with lathe off put it into blank and then with 300 rpm going left-right with the towel. With the thich you can put quite a pressure, since this leads to very smooth surface. Only little sanding is needed to get shiny surafce (320,400,800,1000 and to 12000 MM).

I use normal bushings, but alsways check the wood diameter with measuring device.
 
jusaf said:
Not quite experienced enough to make a pen between centers yet.

Jim
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I agree with Monty above. It takes less experience and complication to use the between centers than to use a mandrel. Between centers uses less parts - Mandrel, spacers, nut, and not as prone to problems with too tight on the tail stock against a mandrel.

If one is comfortable with mandrels, and the mandrel method is working, then one should keep using that method. But if the reason for not using the mandrel-less is because it is thought to be complicated, there is some misunderstanding of its simplicity.
 
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Mesquiteman's way

I totally agree with Monty.....use the mandrel- less routine...between centers....gets rid of the out-of - round problems, etc...

Also, use Mesquiteman's routine of CA glue....sand to 600 ( or higher, depending on wood)...Fold a paper towel .....apply CA Accelerator, then one coat of CA thin. Immediately after the coat of CA thin, apply another coat of CA accelerator. Lightly rub back-and-forth with the paper towel. Never use pressure!!!!! Do this for 3 times, then do the same for Medium CA....alternate medium CA with accelerator. No sanding until all 6 coats applied. After coat # 6 of medium CA and accelerator....sand beginning at 320, go to 600, then MM to 12, 000. You will have a brilliant shine and durable coat. This method has made my life alot easier and much quicker. IT WORKS.......
 
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Jim watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orcgOf4siqc Its from William Young and it helped my ca finish a lot. I think we all apply ca different and with all the great finishes posted there has to be a lot of right ways. You just have to find one that you are comfortable with and make it yours. I would like to thank all of you that have posted articles that have helped me with this hobby that I am hocked on.

Thanks, Ray
 
I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate a little bit here and say mandreless bushings are a whole separate issue altogether, almost completely unrelated to putting on a CA finish. Jim asked about some simple CA questions and we're running off into a PhD in CA application here. You can do it mandreless, sure but it's not necessary. If you don't already have a grasp on that, then forget it b/c it will only complicate things for you. What you have to understand is what the CA glue is, how it works, and what you're trying to acheive in the end. Thin CA cures quicker, thick CA cures slower. Thin CA will require more coats, thicker CA will require fewer coats. BLO is not required, so don't bother with it for now if you want to keep things simple. You can use a paper towel if you want to cure the CA faster, but you'll use more glue in the process. The bottom line is that everyone is going to give you different pieces of advice, but unless you understand the context of the advice they're giving you, you'll end up screwing up your CA finish until you get so sick of it you give up and go back to *shudder* friction polishes. You're putting glue on wood, that's it. You put in on, let it dry, and sand it. That's the bottom line!! How you do it is going to depend on your personal touch and preferences.
 
I sand the blanks down to final, then remove the blanks from the mandrel and shoot a few shots of Pam no-stick cooking oil on the bushings, mandrel and shoot a little Pam onto a paper towel and wipe the ends of the blanks with the paper towel. Re-assemble the blanks on the mandrel and finish with CA.

My best finish results have come from SUPER T thick CA and 1 drop of BLO. I do eight coats the same way. applying the thick CA right over the drop of BLO on the paper towel. My main problem before was using TOO MUCH BLO, so I never rub the wood with BLO only. I just use the BLO to lubricate the thick CA and keep the paper towel from sticking. 1 drop per coat is plenty. On some woods, I eliminate the BLO completely.

Good luck. It takes time, but there really is no prettier finish than a correctly applied CA process.
 
If you can turn using a mandrel, you can turn between centers. It's actually easier IMNSHO. Invest in good bushings from JohnnyCNC and you'll never go back to the cheapo stock bushings.

The only bushings better than Johnny's are to make your own. Funny thing, I can buy 'em from Johnny cheaper than I can make my own! They really are good.
 
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