beginner kitless adventures week 2 - tenon help

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hooked

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Thanks to everyone's advice, my second pen came out much better. Picture below. My threads are looking great now. I have a tenon issue I was hoping to throw out there and see if anyone has any ideas of what I may be doing wrong. I am using single start tap/die here—M11x.75, M14x1, and Jowo #6. I am using measurements from a guide that came with the taps and dies.

My body tenon seems right, and it fits great on the mandrel. I cut my tenon to .545. It measures .545 (top of threads) after I put threads on it. Every cap fit has been great. Internally, I am cutting with a Y bit (.404) to accept the section tenon.
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The section tenon I turned to .425 as instructed, but my fit was very loose there. On my latest (5th​) attempt, I made certain that my tenon was oversized to .430 on both ends to be sure. I run my die through with the lettering out, and then I rerun it with the die reversed.
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I notice that after I cut with the die, the end of my tenon is measuring .389 at the end with flat threads at the start and goes up to .405 (top of threads) at the end. My last thread seems to be the only one catching on to the tenon. After five attempts, I have noticed that this is happening no matter what size I make my tenon. I think that I am doing something incorrectly. Should my tenon reduce from .430 to .389-.405 when I cut with the M11 die? I don't feel any additional resistance when using the die. Any advice?
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Here is pen #2. Again, I am happy with this one except for the fact that I have teflon tape on the threads making a tight fit into the body.

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I'm not sure that I am following. Probably terminology. The threads shown in the first pic look great!
it sounds like the male threads for the section are the problem. What size treads are you using?
 
Looking at your pics, it is clear that you have a gradient on the threads from one end to the other, and it would also seem that the radius of the threads is smaller than expected (.405 max vs.43 start).

Did you measure the tenon size before you reversed the die? If it was closer to .43 then you may not be getting a correct mounting when you reverse it.

The pics make me think your die is either offset in the holder and/or not seated flat such that you are threading at an angle to your tennon.

Since you don't seem to have the issue with the die used for the first pic. I would visually compare the dies in your holder (both normal and reversed) to see if you can see a difference.
 
PatrickR said:
I'm not sure that I am following. Probably terminology. The threads shown in the first pic look great!
it sounds like the male threads for the section are the problem. What size treads are you using?
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Sorry for the confusion. Inside the body, I am using a Y bit (.404). The tenon on the section is cut to .425. I run the die and see that my tenon is now .389 at the end. The other end of the tenon is ending up at .405 (top of threads). This tenon screws into the .404 tapped hole. It is always loose and only catches near the last thread but will not hold.

I guess my question is, should my diameter change that much after using the die? For example, if I make my tenon .425 or .430, the end of the section always ends up under .400.

I am trying to figure out if my die is the problem or if I need to adjust my .404 bit on the body. Or, doing something wrong cutting this tenon. Any adjustment I am doing to the section tenon itself, the measurement doesn't change.

1649601182835.png
 
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RichF said:
Looking at your pics, it is clear that you have a gradient on the threads from one end to the other, and it would also seem that the radius of the threads is smaller than expected (.405 max vs.43 start).

Did you measure the tenon size before you reversed the die? If it was closer to .43 then you may not be getting a correct mounting when you reverse it.

The pics make me think your die is either offset in the holder and/or not seated flat such that you are threading at an angle to your tennon.

Since you don't seem to have the issue with the die used for the first pic. I would visually compare the dies in your holder (both normal and reversed) to see if you can see a difference.
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Thank you. I will check the die and die holder. I am about to do another attempt and will be sure to check the size before I reverse the die.
 
Ok. Latest effort. I think my tenon is straight, but still not sure if it should be getting this small once I use the die on it. Sorry, there are so many pictures, but I feel I can communicate my issues better through images.

Here is my tenon to size:
1649606850298.png


I cut a relief in. Check my die placement in the holder. Clean the die very well. :
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I run the die through with renaissance wax and wd-40. It comes out much better once I checked everything and cleaned out the die very well, but it is still just over .400, but straight now.
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Flip the die and see there is no resistance, and the threading looks pretty good. Size did not change.

Clearly, the fit is still loose and wobbles quite a bit until it is fully seated. Is this normal to wobble this much?

 
Are you cutting 10x1 threads? Have you drilled a hole in the section blank?
also , do you fully tighten the set screw on the die holder?
Edit - i see they are 11x.75
the simple answer is , no cutting the threads shouldn't change the diameter if the tenon much at all.
 
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PatrickR said:
Are you cutting 10x1 threads? Have you drilled a hole in the section blank?
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No. I am cutting 11x.75 with the tap in the body. I have not drilled a hole at this point in making the section except for my centering bit to place my live center to cut the tenon. The instructions that I am using have me cut the tenon first and then drill. I am using the supplies here, but not the die holders.

I have a triple start on order but use this set to learn the basics.
 
i ask about the set screw because this should only tighten it enough to keep the die from spinning. You want the die to be able to move a little so that it can self center.
 
I would cut a small taper on the end, it helps the die align at the start. Possibly turn the adjustment screw in to open up the die a bit more and see how it works. The wobble I see in the video looks to me like for some reason too much materiel is being removed.
 
I have actually been tightening down the set screw pretty good in the holder. I did not realize it should not be tight. I will loosen that on my next attempt. In terms of adjusting the screw in the die, I assume I would tighten it down a bit to open the die? I haven't thought about adjusting the die. Thank you!

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Measurement across the outside of the threads isn't the correct way to check. The proper way is to use thread wires. Three precision ground rods, two on one side in the threads valleys and one on the opposite side, measured with a micrometer. Then check against the charts for the fit you are after. The loose fit isn't dependant on the outside point to point diameter, it is the sloped sides of the V to V fit. If the die is taking too much off and the thread fit is sloppy You adjust the little grub screw in the split of the die inward to open the die and the opposite to loosen it.

What I suggest you do is to drill a tap hole in some scrap and tap a hole in it. Then turn some tenons on more scrap and thread them. Fit the tenon into the scrap and see if it is loose or tight. If loose tighten the little set screw an eight or a quarter turn and write it down to keep track of how much you moved it so you can return to original if needed. Cut a new thread and check the fit. Adjust from there until you are happy. If it was too tight a fit you would move the little grub screw out so it closes to make the die remove more. Note that different materials cut differently from one another slightly so you could need to make adjustments again.

Adding that it looks like you figured it out.
 
hooked said:
I have actually been tightening down the set screw pretty good in the holder. I did not realize it should not be tight. I will loosen that on my next attempt. In terms of adjusting the screw in the die, I assume I would tighten it down a bit to open the die? I haven't thought about adjusting the die. Thank you!

View attachment 332592
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That could be the problem. die holders aren't exactly close tolerance tools.
 
This probably won't fix your problem but it's a good tip.

Use the 10% rule when making tenons for threading with a die.

Reduce the nominal tenon size by 10% of the thread pitch.

In this case your nominal tenon size is 11mm (.433")

Your pitch is 0.75mm (.030")

10% of .030" is .003"

The tenon size in this example should be .430".
 
Thank you all! I made another section last night, and I see an improvement. I tapered the end of my tenon. I loosened the die holder and opened the die a half turn. I noticed immediately that the curls coming out of the die seemed to look better. It is a better fit, and I can see that my tenon is bigger using my caliper measurement. I will need to order a set of thread wires to measure correctly.

I will make smaller adjustments to the die as suggested and try to dial it in. But, at least now, I feel I am making progress.

Thank you for the tip, Rick! That is something I was trying to figure out. I wasn't sure where the tenon sweet spot would be, so I was ranging it from .425-.433.
 
I wanted to thank everyone again. After making several minor adjustments, I finally got a great fit, but I have learned a couple of things I believe are causing the issues. So I thought I would post them if anyone ever finds this thread with problems like I am having.

I think part of my problem is the die. I notice that the tiny grub screw holding the die open slips off the corner of the die. It wobbles when I use it. This screw is pictured earlier in this thread. I pop it back onto the die, and I get good cuts. However, I am finding that occasionally the grub screw is slightly popping out of place while using the die. I will be replacing this die.

The second problem is that the shaft of the die holder is very close to the size of my tenon. I believe my tenon was coming through the back of the die, and the shaft was crushing the first threads on the end of the tenon. So I shortened my tenon, and the flat threads on the tenon completely disappeared.

In any case, I believe my first fully successful kitless pen is the result. Every connection is a tight fit and threads nicely. I made the section out of ebonite and think I will use ebonite more often. It seems to thread very well.

Next, I need to work on cap proportion, section shaping, and adding segmenting elements. After that, finials and clips.

1649869503833.png
 
Nice pen!
I totally agree about threading ebonite.
I didn't even think about the holder causing the thread damage.
FWIW - with adjustable dies I don't compress them unless I see the need. If the barrel fit is too tight I will start the die back on by hand and compress it a very small amount, cut them down just until it feels right.
Keep it up.
 
Is there a way to cut proper threads by hand? I mean holding the die by hand and without tailstock support? My mini lathe's tailstock cannot be used with a die holder, cheers
 
MedWoodWorx said:
Is there a way to cut proper threads by hand? I mean holding the die by hand and without tailstock support? My mini lathe's tailstock cannot be used with a die holder, cheers
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I don't think you would be very successful holding the die in hand.
If your lathe has a long enough bed, you may be able to build a stand to hold a shaft and use a sliding die holder. Your biggest obstacle would be ensuring that the center of the shaft is at the dead center of the headstock. With careful measurements and a well thought out design, I think it would work.
 
MedWoodWorx said:
Is there a way to cut proper threads by hand? I mean holding the die by hand and without tailstock support? My mini lathe's tailstock cannot be used with a die holder, cheers
Click to expand...

There are many ways of holding things, sometimes we have to figure out what we can do with the lathe we have.

What type of tailstock is it? Does it have a Morse Taper? Do you have a chuck that holds (for example) drill bits in the tailstock? A photo might help us see if there's a way it can be made to work.

If not the tailstock - maybe there is a way to hold a die using something else which can be positioned correctly so you cut threads that are correctly aligned with the pen parts.
 
I did a few in the metal lathe by holding the dies in a 3 jaw in the headstock. You use the tailstock live centre in the end of the blank to keep it aligned as you rotate the blank, gently keeping the tailstock snugged up as you thread.

Your other option is to get a die holder from Victor (middle of the page). They will slide over a transfer punch held in your tailstock drill chuck keeping it aligned while you rotate it. Victor has a minimum dollar amount for purchases so you will have to get another tool or two to order. I haven't looked to see if any other sellers have them.

I just realized you are in Greece and Victor may not ship to you or it could be costly if they do so I looked on eBay UK and found these. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16434880...26InscERYcD7s9JpY%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675 There should be some sites in Greece or the European Union that sell these Indian made die holders.
 
Curly said:
I did a few in the metal lathe by holding the dies in a 3 jaw in the headstock. You use the tailstock live centre in the end of the blank to keep it aligned as you rotate the blank, gently keeping the tailstock snugged up as you thread.

Your other option is to get a die holder from Victor (middle of the page). They will slide over a transfer punch held in your tailstock drill chuck keeping it aligned while you rotate it. Victor has a minimum dollar amount for purchases so you will have to get another tool or two to order. I haven't looked to see if any other sellers have them.

I just realized you are in Greece and Victor may not ship to you or it could be costly if they do so I looked on eBay UK and found these. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164348803227?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110002&algo=SPLICE.SOI&ao=1&asc=20201210111451&meid=f0f0688f586547aab1fe80d2b6a7e9d4&pid=101196&rk=5&rkt=12&sd=164740758845&itm=164348803227&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=PromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum:164348803227f0f0688f586547aab1fe80d2b6a7e9d4|enc:AQAGAAABACtrZQ7uyU6NyRWMuc0OogoSa%2FUIDys%2F02w7jR10vOAtpVt6sGN0qe7SJ3Mph%2BIXUigrTZbzr%2BaWGzBYSTBUsnnpg4d3FCdkywDznqJFsJPlHb%2FwGcrIg0zrqdoxHe%2BM2q%2BkciU7vaSbWoomZtkKZfiVfnZcpY%2BB3mh%2B1pY73LB6lNX15RlJgv82lxYRFe35eiCkJh4%2FoP%2B80SN5cQ9y6f9cDhlVzaLX7qgRrvPbxmRv%2FD8kjN4R8VSOVwz1%2Bim0F3L8fut2FQmEfpE2Al3R5I5vAwRsB5GmIT2aYDOMhGP%2FsgSAvvXtzORcr57QRspYdDoZZo26InscERYcD7s9JpY%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675 There should be some sites in Greece or the European Union that sell these Indian made die holders.
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Thanx a lot for your help, i really appreciate this, you guys are awesome
 
duncsuss said:
There are many ways of holding things, sometimes we have to figure out what we can do with the lathe we have.

What type of tailstock is it? Does it have a Morse Taper? Do you have a chuck that holds (for example) drill bits in the tailstock? A photo might help us see if there's a way it can be made to work.

If not the tailstock - maybe there is a way to hold a die using something else which can be positioned correctly so you cut threads that are correctly aligned with the pen parts.
Click to expand...
I have a toy lathe a proxxon wood lathe, i am thinking about making a custom die holder to fit in my toy tailstock. I suppose for an experienced turner it would be possible to hold the die by hand but since its my first try i don't want to risk messing my project. Thank you all for your interest, it means a lot to for me, cheers everyone.
 
MedWoodWorx said:
I have a toy lathe a proxxon wood lathe, i am thinking about making a custom die holder to fit in my toy tailstock. I suppose for an experienced turner it would be possible to hold the die by hand but since its my first try i don't want to risk messing my project. Thank you all for your interest, it means a lot to for me, cheers everyone.
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It looks like there is a drill chuck for that Proxxon. The capacity is only 5mm, but you could probably rig up a way to mount the die holder with a transfer punch and turn a sleeve that fits the holder to the transfer punch.

1650745555080.png
 
hooked said:
It looks like there is a drill chuck for that Proxxon. The capacity is only 5mm, but you could probably rig up a way to mount the die holder with a transfer punch and turn a sleeve that fits the holder to the transfer punch.

View attachment 333601
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Thats what i am thinking, either use the drill chuck somehow or make a custom die holder chuck to use with the original tailstock
 
I have a 1MT tailstock, and couldn't find a tailstock die holder with 1MT, (still looking-any suggestions gratefully received) so I turned a die holder using a hardwood which I use with my tailstock drill chuck.

It works very well.

Mike
 
Jans husband said:
I have a 1MT tailstock, and couldn't find a tailstock die holder with 1MT, (still looking-any suggestions gratefully received) so I turned a die holder using a hardwood which I use with my tailstock drill chuck.

It works very well.

Mike
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Thats a great idea, it would be nice to upload a picture, cheers
 
jalbert said:
Upgrade to a small metalworking lathe and learn how to use its thread cutting capabilities. Then you never have to be constrained by taps and dies ever again.
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Someday i ll buy a metalworking lathe but for now there are other tool priorities like a proper wood lathe. Also i need to learn how to use a tap and die as a tool. Baby steps.
 
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