Here is my take on it:
Its not a matter of quality. Quality is based on your limiting factor. For example, in a kit pen, your limiting factor could be the material for the body, the quality of the kit, or the skill of the penmaker themself.
I think where kitless comes in is the other factors:
- Uniqueness or variation (IE - A kitless pen is likely more unique to you than one on a kit.... the key word is LIKELY as there is some pretty darn unique kit pens too)
- Styling (as in a "classically" styled pen).... A kitless pen will tend to look like a more 'expensive' pen. A real collector is going to recognize the "kit" no matter what you do with the components from the kit.
- Skills ... A kitless pen requires more work/skills/time..(Because having the kit components saves people from having to do some of the touchiest things, like threading). Therefore there may be a perception that a less than average kitless is better than a more than average kit pen. However, a poorly made kitless will stand out just as much as a poorly made kit pen.
In the thread I linked above the comments at shows seemed to be the opposite, this is what got me thinking. As many of us know kitless pens take a lot more work and tend to look like vintage pens, something the collector will be keen on but the average person not so much.... A kitless pen will tend to look like a more 'expensive' pen ...
In the thread I linked above the comments at shows seemed to be the opposite, this is what got me thinking. As many of us know kitless pens take a lot more work and tend to look like vintage pens, something the collector will be keen on but the average person not so much.... A kitless pen will tend to look like a more 'expensive' pen ...
I should have re-worded things or asked a different question. I guess I could have asked what is your idea of a high end pen? Kitless, kit or something in between.
AK
I've realised that ... it wasn't worded correctly ... :befuddled:...I'm not sure your going to get a single answer to the question...
I've realised that ... it wasn't worded correctly ... :befuddled:...I'm not sure your going to get a single answer to the question...
AK
Quality is a tough word to pin down. Quality can mean precise adherence to pre-established standards. That could leave one concluding that a perfectly crafted slim is very high quality. Or quality could mean using higher grade components as well as perfect crafting. I would substitute craftsmanship for quality when it comes to successfully meeting standards. Outstanding craftsmanship is equally possible on a slim as on an Emperor.
Another commonly accepted part of quality is what I choose to call artistry; creativity, uniqueness, originality, a sense of awe and a mysterious inspirational quality that makes one want to say WOW. There is a popular saying that "art is eye of the beholder." Personally I totally reject that weary adage. I agree that there are no bright lines at the borders between art and not art, or good art and bad art. But I think true fine art is readily recognizable by the sense of wonder it stirs. That doesn't mean I always like it, but I do believe that most of us can easily recognize it if we try.
I choose to define quality at being close to the same as artistic. With that in mind I say that as a general rule, kitless is of higher quality, but only if the craftsmanship is flawless. If, as you suggest, you were to modify the question to ask is kit or kittless more high end, I would still vote for kitless.
None of this changes my observation that kitless pens are tough to sell, they impress pen makers more than they impress pen buyers. I can give away kitless pens to very appreciative recipients, but I can't sell them. At the art shows the other sellers are often interested in trading their art for kitless pens, but they aren't willing to trade their money for them.
I feel differently. I think that a component pen cannot truly be considered high end. Even it writes magnificiently, and it's dressed in a one of a kind blank, the very fact that anyone can buy the same metal parts and make a similar pen (lets not even get into the eBay issue) negates it the status of high end.
Yes there are advantages, they are sturdy and durable, reliable etc. and they DO look good.
And yes, they can be expensive, you can have a 1000$ Damascus Pen, and you can charge 100'000 if you can get your hands on George washington's cherry tree. But we know the truth (which is also why we are afraid to call them kits!)
That was the intent but I didn't word things that great. The other thread suggested that the general public doesn't care much for kitless pens as they don't seem high end. I was looking to get other pen turners thoughts on this. I may be brave enough to start another poll, if I can word things differently.I don't think the OP is looking for a SINGLE answer, which is why there are four options in the poll. He's looking for individual opinions... so if everyone answers based on how they define quality, I believe that will suffice.
That was the intent but I didn't word things that great. The other thread suggested that the general public doesn't care much for kitless pens as they don't seem high end. I was looking to get other pen turners thoughts on this. I may be brave enough to start another poll, if I can word things differently.I don't think the OP is looking for a SINGLE answer, which is why there are four options in the poll. He's looking for individual opinions... so if everyone answers based on how they define quality, I believe that will suffice.
AK