Am I expecting too much from replacement BP cartridges?

[Mack C.]

This is 2 pics of a Cigar BP pen I carry. The first shows the nib protruding a little past the angle (for want of a better word) of the cartridge. This is the stock Dayacom cartridge that came with the pen components.

This is a pic of the name brand cartridge (which for now will remain nameless). It's easy to see the cartridge doesn't protrude as far as the stock nib.


Frankly it's bugging me to no end, and that's the reason for the title of this thread.

The stock Dayacom measures 3.8815 in. 5 different replacement cartridges measure 3.8640, 3.8610 (2 at that measurement), 3.8620, 3.8615. I appreciate the difference is only 2/100ths of an inch.

The look of the cartridge extending as in the 1st pic is more appealing to the eye of the writer. (just my opinion!)

When I look at the extension of the cartridge in the 2nd pic, I have to look twice to see if there is enough nib protruding to write with.


Answer my question please!

 

[Chasper]

I agree that the extension of the ink supply in the first photo looks better, in the second photo the extension is inadequate.

However, it appears that the difference is significantly more than 2/100s. In addition to the overall legnth there is possibly a difference in the threads. The ink supply in the second photo may not have threads cut as far. Try screwing it in tighter or cutting threads a little deeper.

 

[Mack C.]

I agree that the extension of the ink supply in the first photo looks better, in the second photo the extension is inadequate.

However, it appears that the difference is significantly more than 2/100s. In addition to the overall legnth there is possibly a difference in the threads. The ink supply in the second photo may not have threads cut as far. Try screwing it in tighter or cutting threads a little deeper.

Hi Chasper; I'm not clear on your meaning. There are no threads involved other than the one of the pen. It's simply a Ball Point cartridge replacement.

 

[Mack C.]

Here's 2 pics of the same cartridges on a Sierra.

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Mack, could you do me a favour measure 20 stock lengths and 20 replacement cartidges, send me (email) the data, I'd like to analize it and post the variences for us to look at ...Thanks

 

[JohnGreco]

Chasper- I believe these are Parker style BP's, so there aren't threads at the rear like Cross styles.

Aesthetically, I like the look of the 2nd picture, but it does leave me wondering if it has enough space at the end. It's probably one of those things where it has plenty of room and I'm just over-thinking it.

 

[bitshird]

I was told when I started turning pens that the second photo is the correct length of the nib cone sticking out, and the top pic. is over extended, but the person that told me may have been full of it.

 

[Chasper]

I agree that the extension of the ink supply in the first photo looks better, in the second photo the extension is inadequate.

However, it appears that the difference is significantly more than 2/100s. In addition to the overall legnth there is possibly a difference in the threads. The ink supply in the second photo may not have threads cut as far. Try screwing it in tighter or cutting threads a little deeper.

Hi Chasper; I'm not clear on your meaning. There are no threads involved other than the one of the pen. It's simply a Ball Point cartridge replacement.

Sorry, my mistake.
You can make a make a Parker style refill shorter by pulling off the plastic end and grinding down the metal tube. Make it longer by using some CA to glue in the plastic end of the refill without pushing it all the way in. I prefer them to stick out much like you show in the first photo.

 

[Mack C.]

Make it longer by using some CA to glue in the plastic end of the refill without pushing it all the way in. I prefer them to stick out much like you show in the first photo.

That's really not acceptable. I provide a free refill cartridge with each pen I sell. What's the customer to do when it comes time to replace the cartridge? (Rhetorical, no need to answer)

 

[Mack C.]

I have just measured a higher end refill cartridge, and it measures just 3.8470 in. This on a pen I was planning to swap in the Aussie pen swap.

 

[sbell111]

Make it longer by using some CA to glue in the plastic end of the refill without pushing it all the way in. I prefer them to stick out much like you show in the first photo.

That's really not acceptable. I provide a free refill cartridge with each pen I sell. What's the customer to do when it comes time to replace the cartridge? (Rhetorical, no need to answer)

I realize that your question was rhetorical, but I suspect that most customers would not take note of this issue, at all. Any that do will quickly realize that there is some variation in the length (and width) of Parker refills and probably not really care.

The only thing that you can do is measure the free refill that you give out to match it to the refill that you have in the pen. My plan, however, would be simply to not worry about this issue.

 

[Haynie]

I personally prefer the second pic. I'll take those offending refills off your hands.

 

[ALA]

As a new pin turner I had wondered about this too. Personally I like the second pic better. To a customer it may not make a difference.....

 

[Texatdurango]

Mack, you could take two identical pens to a gathering of 1000 people, one with the refill protruding .020" more than the other, pass them around and and I will almost guarantee you that NO ONE will even notice!

As pen makers we spend so much time looking at our pens that we begin to notice little things like this while the average person wouldn't and it doesn't matter since both refills will write just fine.

Before turning and making pens, whenever I picked up a pen I NEVER noticed things like "fit and finish", how shiny a pen was or how far a refill protruded.

To answer your question..... YES, you are worrying about this too much. Step away from your shop, grab a cup of coffee and focus your worries on things that really matter, like how much pressure is required for the pen clip to "properly" open to easily slip into a shirt pocket. :biggrin:

 

[leestoresund]

We got some campaignin' goin' on down here. That's something to really worry about.

 

[Jim Burr]

That's a great observation Mack...I haven't noticed on mine, but I will be looking! Good eye and thanks for making us aware!

 

[EricJS]

I noticed this a long time ago.

While squaring my lower blank (which is done on my lathe) I accidentally take a little too much off. If I don't accidentally "cut into the brass," I take off an extra 1/64." This gives me the correct amount of extension for a premium refill.

I do this so often that I hardly notice anymore. And I don't build the pen for the generic refills so if a customer chooses to use a cheap refill I will simply sell them a quality refill to fix the problem.

I don't accept this as a non-issue, I've just found a easy way to deal with it.

 

[Smitty37]

Quality Control

Things are made with tolerances ... you either need to live with them or do measurements to find the length that you like best and only use those that meet your own criteria. Any replacements that you buy will have some variation from nominal, you might be able to contact the manufacturers and find out what their spec is and start using replacements from the one who best meets your needs.

 

[Ruby pen turning]

Love the new logo

The Lord Bless you and keep you safe

 

[Mack C.]

Things are made with tolerances ... you either need to live with them or do measurements to find the length that you like best and only use those that meet your own criteria. Any replacements that you buy will have some variation from nominal, you might be able to contact the manufacturers and find out what their spec is and start using replacements from the one who best meets your needs.

Hi Smitty; While I purposely didn't mention the seller or the manufacturer of the replacement cartridges, they are top of the line that are being sold by a couple of vendors on this forum.

I would have no idea how to contact the manufacturer of these cartridges.

And I have not started this thread as a way of getting at the manuf. or the vendors. I merely wanted to know if I am thinking too hard about the whole subject.

Some think I am, others agree with me!

 

[Smitty37]

Not being critical

I wasn't being critical... Tolerances are just a fact of life and there really isn't much you and I can do about that. Now and then if enough folks complain they might tighten them up a little (and probably raise their price too) but otherwise we just have to work around them. I don't know as I would know how to contact the manufacturer either but your source(s) for the refills might.

 

[Smitty37]

Thanks

I owe my thanks to 'fireengines" for the signature logo.... I kind of like it too.

Love the new logo

The Lord Bless you and keep you safe

 

[toolcrazy]

Mack, you could take two identical pens to a gathering of 1000 people, one with the refill protruding .020" more than the other, pass them around and and I will almost guarantee you that NO ONE will even notice!

As pen makers we spend so much time looking at our pens that we begin to notice little things like this while the average person wouldn't and it doesn't matter since both refills will write just fine.

Before turning and making pens, whenever I picked up a pen I NEVER noticed things like "fit and finish", how shiny a pen was or how far a refill protruded.

To answer your question..... YES, you are worrying about this too much. Step away from your shop, grab a cup of coffee and focus your worries on things that really matter, like how much pressure is required for the pen clip to "properly" open to easily slip into a shirt pocket. :biggrin:

I'm sure that every single manufacture of Parker type refills lengths will vary a bit. I agree with Texatdurango, most if not all our customers will not notice the variance. But, I also agree with you that the variances shouldn't be there. We, as the artist, want our products to be perfect in every way, and there is no reason why they shouldn't. Myself, I generally don't worry about it. I worry more about the overall quality, fit and finish. But, as far as the refill, as soon as the pen leaves our possession, we can't control what refill our customers use.

 

[Mack C.]

But, as far as the refill, as soon as the pen leaves our possession, we can't control what refill our customers use.

Hi Steve; You may have missed where I mentioned I give a spare pen cartridge (name brand omitted) to the customer with each pen I sell. I do have control over the first refill they use! That's the part that is bothering me.

 

[ossaguy]

I also noticed the same thing today.I changed out the stock refill for the premium and it looks exactly the same as your cigar pen photo in the distance it sticks out of.

Still writes fine,though.I'm trying to kick my fit-n-finish up a notch always,so I notice these little details,but I try to not let it bug me.

I haven't tried seeing if there is the same difference between the stock Cross-type refill VS. the premium refill for the slimlines.If there is,I never noticed it in the ones I upgraded in the past.

I think they should have a industry standard length for refills,just for consistancy,especially since they cost more.

Steve

 

[ossaguy]

I owe my thanks to 'fireengines" for the signature logo.... I kind of like it too.

Love the new logo

The Lord Bless you and keep you safe​

That's a great looking logo!!!


Steve

 

[Smitty37]

I also noticed the same thing today.I changed out the stock refill for the premium and it looks exactly the same as your cigar pen photo in the distance it sticks out of.

Still writes fine,though.I'm trying to kick my fit-n-finish up a notch always,so I notice these little details,but I try to not let it bug me.

I haven't tried seeing if there is the same difference between the stock Cross-type refill VS. the premium refill for the slimlines.If there is,I never noticed it in the ones I upgraded in the past.

I think they should have a industry standard length for refills,just for consistancy,especially since they cost more.

Steve

I'd be surprised if they don't. Such things often exist but are not published where anyone outside the industry is likely to read them.

 

[ghostrider]

I'm beginning to thinks this is consistent.

Several months ago I had a customer ask me to work on his cigar because he was having problems writing with it. He was using a premium refill, just like Mack's pens, and it had the same problem. Just this morning, I'm putting a premium refill in a pen I just completed, and it does the same thing. The length is fine with the stock refill, but not with the premium refill.

I think it's just one of those things with which we need to consider the trade offs. Either the stock refills will be too long, or the premium refills will be too short. There can be only one.

 

[Daniel]

What is the diameter of each refill? I can't really tell by the photo but is the replacement refill is a tad larger so that it only protrudes so far before it is basically stuck in the hole of the nib?

 

[ghostrider]

What is the diameter of each refill? I can't really tell by the photo but is the replacement refill is a tad larger so that it only protrudes so far before it is basically stuck in the hole of the nib?

It's not the diameter. It's the length. I did check to see if they will protrude far enough in the tip, and they do. They are just shorter than the stock refills.

I measured two stock refills out to 3.811, and the premium was 3.802. Mine look about the same as Mack's.

 

[jaywood1207]

Mack I do not think you are being too critical. I have had a pen returned to me for fixing (sierra) because the refill he purchased did not stick out as far as the old one and he purchased an actual Parker name brand refill. I brought it home and tried several different refills. The stock ones that come with the pens were all fine. I supply easyflow with all my pens and they were fine. The Parker was not. I tried them in different pens and spent time measuring and trying to figure it out. I found the kit refills were slightly longer as you mentioned than the other 2 refills.

I eventually found exactly what Daniel mentions. The Parker was a slightly bigger diameter and it was not able to come through the hole as far. I very gently filed out the hole in the nib slightly and the problem was solved. I suspect the pen I was working on had been dropped and it had created a very tiny burr on the nib hole but can not prove that. In the end all the refills would work but there was still slight differences in the amount they protruded based on the overall length of the refills. How I found it was to push the refill in with your finger to see if there is any resistance or if it will easily come all the way through like in your first picture.

 

[Mack C.]

Mack I do not think you are being too critical. I have had a pen returned to me for fixing (sierra) because the refill he purchased did not stick out as far as the old one and he purchased an actual Parker name brand refill. I brought it home and tried several different refills. The stock ones that come with the pens were all fine. I supply easyflow with all my pens and they were fine. The Parker was not. I tried them in different pens and spent time measuring and trying to figure it out. I found the kit refills were slightly longer as you mentioned than the other 2 refills.

I eventually found exactly what Daniel mentions. The Parker was a slightly bigger diameter and it was not able to come through the hole as far. I very gently filed out the hole in the nib slightly and the problem was solved. I suspect the pen I was working on had been dropped and it had created a very tiny burr on the nib hole but can not prove that. In the end all the refills would work but there was still slight differences in the amount they protruded based on the overall length of the refills. How I found it was to push the refill in with your finger to see if there is any resistance or if it will easily come all the way through like in your first picture.

Hi Jamie; Been there, done that! Not on just one pen, but a number of them, all with the same results!