25 years, 6 tons of ivory crushed!
- Thread starter PTsideshow
- Start date
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Dan Hintz
Member
Saw that... really wish they would consider selling it. They removed it from the hands of the black market sellers, selling it themselves would remove demand and keep the prices low, further reducing black market demand... seems like a win-win-win, but they'll remain short-sighted and destroy it all.
SteveJ
Member
I thought of that too, but they would have to some how mark this ivory as being "legal" and since certificates are relatively easily forged they probably figure it is better to just destroy it than to have to track down the background of each piece they find in the future 
Selling it would just be legitimizing the process by which the ivory was poached - it's illegal for the poacher to sell it, but the government can?
Reducing the amount on the market also makes it harder to 'sneak' some illegitimate ivory into the global marketplace, under the guise of the new influx that the government would have released.
Crushing it sends a message...
Reducing the amount on the market also makes it harder to 'sneak' some illegitimate ivory into the global marketplace, under the guise of the new influx that the government would have released.
Crushing it sends a message...
healeydays
Member
I was just typing this same note. I agree with the crushing and it should be 100% banned including the earlier stuff in my eyes. I deal alot with antique auctions and none of the auctioneers I know will touch any Ivory due to they don't want to loose their license to practice in NH or pay fines associated with trafficking.
Russianwolf
Member
How do they feel about other types of Ivory? Mammoth, vegetable, etc. since its hard to tell the difference some times.
I read one article about mammoth ivory where the spokesman for one of the Ivory protection groups said something along the lines of "selling any type of ivory encourages the black market for elephant ivory" but I'm betting that he doesn't hold the same feeling for wood products even though there are some trees that have been "poached" nearly to extinction.
Elephant Ivory is the one pen type I never made and doubt I would if I were still making them regularly. Even knowing trusted sources, just not worth the troubles (potential cracking, can't sell outside the US, etc.)
Kenny Durrant
Member
I think selling it and useing the money to combat poaching would be better but with governments being corrupt I don't know how much would actually
make it to the program. You can also think about if you could give the market some relief it would drive the price down and that might help the poaching. I guess we will never know because it's now trash. Why display it in a museum, how is it going to show future generations what a tusk looks like.
make it to the program. You can also think about if you could give the market some relief it would drive the price down and that might help the poaching. I guess we will never know because it's now trash. Why display it in a museum, how is it going to show future generations what a tusk looks like.
To show future generations what a tusk looks like, we had best start protecting the animals that grow tusks!
I think destroying a large portion of the world's supply of illegal ivory, coupled with measures to protect elephants, does more to educate people on the importance of stopping poaching than displaying the results of poaching in a museum.
Russianwolf
Member
plenty of examples of complete tusks in museums all over the world from the old big game trade of the 1800's
Crushing and displaying the results sends the message that 1) the ivory is worthless to us (you caused an elephant to be killed for nothing) and 2) there is nothing of value remaining to attempt to steal.
Kenny Durrant
Member
So what's the purpose of displaying. We are trying to stop poaching so we should educate people on the effects of it and not the wasted remains.
monark88
Member
I guess I didn't "get it".
I also believe that ivory must be banned and all out means to protect the remaining elephants is an absolute. This necessary to any reasonable thinking person.
This act, again IMHO, was an attempt to simplify a situation and call it, in some way, a message sent to poachers. In other words, an act that is so complicated that we are prone to oversimplify a solution to it.
But, to me, the crushing/destroying of the ivory might also create a demand for more since there may no longer be a "stash" of material, however inaccessible it is/was.
I find it difficult to believe that any anti poaching message will make any difference with those who continue to poach. There's been may messages in the past many years. If any message would have been successful, we wouldn't have elephant poaching continuing on today.
Trying to moralize with these folks just hasn't worked. Where there's money to be made relative easily, crime will certainly win out. It would probably be more practical to stop the purchasers/ end users of the ivory.
I don't think this ivory should have been made "legal" and sold, that Really would have sent a message. I wonder how many of us here knew that the US had stockpiled so many tons of ivory. It could have gone on in tight storage forever, I suppose, safely. Although expensive to guard over the years.
Russ
I also believe that ivory must be banned and all out means to protect the remaining elephants is an absolute. This necessary to any reasonable thinking person.
This act, again IMHO, was an attempt to simplify a situation and call it, in some way, a message sent to poachers. In other words, an act that is so complicated that we are prone to oversimplify a solution to it.
But, to me, the crushing/destroying of the ivory might also create a demand for more since there may no longer be a "stash" of material, however inaccessible it is/was.
I find it difficult to believe that any anti poaching message will make any difference with those who continue to poach. There's been may messages in the past many years. If any message would have been successful, we wouldn't have elephant poaching continuing on today.
Trying to moralize with these folks just hasn't worked. Where there's money to be made relative easily, crime will certainly win out. It would probably be more practical to stop the purchasers/ end users of the ivory.
I don't think this ivory should have been made "legal" and sold, that Really would have sent a message. I wonder how many of us here knew that the US had stockpiled so many tons of ivory. It could have gone on in tight storage forever, I suppose, safely. Although expensive to guard over the years.
Russ
Russianwolf
Member
because the display educates people on the firmness of the stance.
This is what we are willing to do. Try to bring something in and we will confiscate it, destroy it, AND send you to jail/fine you. Lose, Lose, Lose.
We can't directly go after poaches since the poaching is in other countries. So we have to go after the buyers.
This is what we are willing to do. Try to bring something in and we will confiscate it, destroy it, AND send you to jail/fine you. Lose, Lose, Lose.
We can't directly go after poaches since the poaching is in other countries. So we have to go after the buyers.
Last edited:
monark88
Member
Mike, Yes, that was my point. But, we Can go after poachers in other countries, if we so chose to work with those other countries. That is a matter of record. It is expensive to do though.
But we have been doing all this for decades to varying degrees and it apparently and obviously has not helped much to stop this crap. I'm in for poaching the poachers. Proactively Jail those guys.
So, I'm not arguing against, just agree in a bit different way. Hopefully in a minute way, to make people think for themselves, less superficially, about such matters of disdain and disgust.
OK, OK, thats my soapbox soliloquy for the day(I hope).
Russ
But we have been doing all this for decades to varying degrees and it apparently and obviously has not helped much to stop this crap. I'm in for poaching the poachers. Proactively Jail those guys.
So, I'm not arguing against, just agree in a bit different way. Hopefully in a minute way, to make people think for themselves, less superficially, about such matters of disdain and disgust.
OK, OK, thats my soapbox soliloquy for the day(I hope).
Russ
One result will be...
Price increase.
The killing will continue, the smuggling will continue, the price just went up.
They need to work on decreasing the demand. Then the killers and smugglers will be out of business.
Charlie
Price increase.
The killing will continue, the smuggling will continue, the price just went up.
They need to work on decreasing the demand. Then the killers and smugglers will be out of business.
Charlie
One way to decrease demand is to make people aware of the hard stance the government takes on ivory - this is one such way.
Another is announcing a bounty on information leading to the destruction of the poaching ring - John Kerry announced a $1 million dollar bounty recently, I believe...
Education, coupled with a tough stance on breaking the law, and measures to help combat the world wide sale of the illegal product, are a good starting point. I'd hate to see elephants go the way of the rhino, where they need a full time security guard following them to protect them from poachers... (yes, some white rhinos have 'poaching guards' tasked to follow them)
Another is announcing a bounty on information leading to the destruction of the poaching ring - John Kerry announced a $1 million dollar bounty recently, I believe...
Education, coupled with a tough stance on breaking the law, and measures to help combat the world wide sale of the illegal product, are a good starting point. I'd hate to see elephants go the way of the rhino, where they need a full time security guard following them to protect them from poachers... (yes, some white rhinos have 'poaching guards' tasked to follow them)
low_48
Member
Keeping any ivory in "the market" means that people still want to make things from ivory. Crush illegal, make final products illegal, heavy jail time for anything to do with ivory, and pretty soon, there will be no purpose to poach ivory. No one will want it.
homemade
Member
I just bet that 99.95% will be crushed and the other .05% would be taken from the pile and placed into private hands and sold at an enormas price. and you can just about bet that the President just might get a piece or two.
Wood Butcher
Local Chapter Leader
Looks to me like they just ran up the price of ivory. There's this old "supply and demand" thing that will require you pay more if there is less of it. If people decide to buy ivory ( or illegal drugs) they will find a supplier, legal of not.
JM2CW
WB
JM2CW
WB
Dan Hintz
Member
That's my thinking... the best way to prevent illegal selling of anything is to make the profit so small the lawbreaking becomes unattractive. So far, I don't think banning anything has ever worked long term... alcohol, guns, etc.
low_48
Member
I'm surprised how you guys are comparing illegal guns and drugs to the slaughter of elephants and rhinos. People will just find a way? Do you really think these compare? Why not continue to slaughter these animals so you can make an ink pen? I just can't imagine how anyone could morally oppose any method of protecting these precious animals, and further yet, how could anyone even imagine using ivory? Think we will get to the point where there will be an import market of human bone for pen making? I mean if people want to find a way, they will do it. Right?
Russianwolf
Member
Prices will rise anyway because of supply. Ever dwindling since the animals are being poached.
That way of thinking doesn't lead to any realistic solution.
How do you propose reducing the price without killing more elephants? Alternatives aren't what the "collectors" are after. They want the real thing.
There are now more people in my home town, than there are elephants on the planet. Where do you draw a line? At what point do you say "no more"? Complete extinction?
This isn't about guns or alcohol where more can be made simply and easily. It takes decades for an elephant to develop large tusks.
Also in economics you learn that the higher the price, the lower the demand. If only the exceptionally wealthy can afford it, then fewer and fewer will be killed. Otherwise we'd all be driving a Ferrari.
Last edited:
Dan Hintz
Member
Destroying the existing supply only serves to make the price of existing material skyrocket... what purpose does that serve for the existing animals? If anything, it will make the current hunters work even harder to destroy what animals are left so they can make their quick buck.
Wood Butcher
Local Chapter Leader
Right, they will find a way. I'm not suggesting killing elephants for the ivory, I'm saying that the destruction of a valuable resource to make a political point is reckless and wasteful with no benefit what so ever to the elephants or to people. Surly that was their "first answer", a bit more thought would have found a positive way to get results; their "best answer".
WB
WB
PTsideshow
Member
You really don't have to worry, as only the US and Canada destroy the confiscated material. Other countries have sales of the material to enrich their coffers periodically.
And it took 25 years for the US to do it. Canada on the other hand has some custom agent activists that have destoryed pricey items that were or had pre ban ivory on them the most famous case was a female agent destroyed a number of antique player piano's and organs by burning the keys off at the border crossing. When a US collector moved to Canada. By the way she supplied her own propane torch and fuel!
In the countries were poaching is on going nothing is available to replace the money the people involved are making.
As to mammoth ivory, Russia is the largest exporter of it there is estimated 1,000's of tons still in the ground in their northern climes.
the countries that still have a large ivory carving business, and Russia will fight any attempts to ban it.
The same here in the states the only group that can legally harvest, work, and sell mammoth, walrus, whale teeth are Alaskan native peoples or their spouses. Knew a Russian that walked across the Being straits 40 years ago, for as he said a better climate than in his home of Siberia.:wink: He was married to an Inuit women, and they haversted mammoth and walrus etc. along with gold panning.
Like any of the past or current prohibitions people will do what they want and pay for it one way or another.
:clown:
And it took 25 years for the US to do it. Canada on the other hand has some custom agent activists that have destoryed pricey items that were or had pre ban ivory on them the most famous case was a female agent destroyed a number of antique player piano's and organs by burning the keys off at the border crossing. When a US collector moved to Canada. By the way she supplied her own propane torch and fuel!
In the countries were poaching is on going nothing is available to replace the money the people involved are making.
As to mammoth ivory, Russia is the largest exporter of it there is estimated 1,000's of tons still in the ground in their northern climes.
the countries that still have a large ivory carving business, and Russia will fight any attempts to ban it.
The same here in the states the only group that can legally harvest, work, and sell mammoth, walrus, whale teeth are Alaskan native peoples or their spouses. Knew a Russian that walked across the Being straits 40 years ago, for as he said a better climate than in his home of Siberia.:wink: He was married to an Inuit women, and they haversted mammoth and walrus etc. along with gold panning.
Like any of the past or current prohibitions people will do what they want and pay for it one way or another.
:clown:
monark88
Member
This is the main problem when trying to stop anything illegal: your words, "nothing is available to replace the money the people involved are making".
Unfortunately we only look for the simple answers to a problem such as this.
Unfortunately we only look for the simple answers to a problem such as this.