1900 Lacey Act FYI
- Thread starter rTURNERg
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tbroye
Member
Government at it worst.
Holz Mechaniker
Member
So what does that say to us. If we purchase Ebony from any supplier, prior to do we ask for copies of paperwork showing that it was acquired from sustained forestry operations?
IF we don't know or don't have said paperwork, is there an amnesty if we voluntarily send our stock pile of ebony in to the government?
Do we just take all of the ebony in our stock piles and burn it in the campfire?
IF we don't know or don't have said paperwork, is there an amnesty if we voluntarily send our stock pile of ebony in to the government?
Do we just take all of the ebony in our stock piles and burn it in the campfire?
DurocShark
Member
They've been after Gibson for several years now, no idea why. I doubt we'll be in trouble, but some of our suppliers might get slapped.
Jgrden
Member
Guess I will keep my ebony. It might become valuable.
PenMan1
Member
It seems like the DOJ has gone into J. Edgar mode, in the last few years. As a collector of vintage guitars and other instruments, this worries me.
What if you have an old Steinway or Baldwin piano with real ivory keys?
What if you have an old Steinway or Baldwin piano with real ivory keys?
Holz Mechaniker
Member
brookswife803
Member
Okay so here's my question... with our government pulling stunts like this what makes companies WANT to set up factories or stores in America? We have a lousy job market. Hmm, why not **** off one company who is here and also give them a legal reason to take their business to India. Makes perfect sense in bizaroworld. It would be nice if our government was once again of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Wooden Affairs
Member
I have heard that the singling out of Gibson is because it is not unionized.
Just a quick reminder while the thread is still on the right side of the rules - lets not discuss government on the forum, please. 
Andrew
assistant moderator
Andrew
assistant moderator
JerrySambrook
Member
Scot,
Interesting theory.
This was a topic of discussion amongst some of us turners this weekend, that someone was setting the government on Gibson
Interesting theory.
This was a topic of discussion amongst some of us turners this weekend, that someone was setting the government on Gibson
sbell111
Member
I think that some of you are making more of this is issue than there is. A law is on the books. It is believed that Ginson violated the law. The government took action.
To those who suggest that this is going to somehow drive Gibson's operations to India, I'm not seeing it. That move would reduce demand for its product and would have no effect on whether they are in compliance with Lacey.
To those who suggest that this is going to somehow drive Gibson's operations to India, I'm not seeing it. That move would reduce demand for its product and would have no effect on whether they are in compliance with Lacey.
toddlajoie
Member
I think one of the key points is that this is not based on a law on our books, but rather our enforcements interpretation of the meaning of another countries laws, and a lot of ambiguity in what that law allows.
IMO, if the material Gibson imported from India violates India law, they should address the Indian company that exported it. If a foreign country specs out something from your company that violates your countries laws, you should not take or fill the order. I'm not saying that Gibson was not aware of the law and may have been aware that they were in the grey area of differing interpretations, but the source company should be crystal clear about what it can and cannot do under it's own laws.
In this particular case they are talking about the differences in "sawn wood" which some people might term as, for example 4/4, rough sawn wood, rough raw wood. From what I understand, Gibson was purchasing wood that was milled to the approximate sizes they need for fretboards, however, they were not made into fretboards, as there are many variations in radius, nut/bridge width, etc that are not done to the fretboard until after the neck is assembled. If the law were to be interpreted as they are saying now, it would be impossible to have an instrument from many of our prominent high end "Made In America" companies using many of the tonewoods that have made them and their sounds so widely coveted, as well as taking away the ability to make custom instruments to the client's desires (go ahead and talk to pro guitarist about fingerboard radius and try and get a consensus...)
At the same time, there are cases of "products" that are nothing more than dimensional lumber with a groove milled into one corner being imported as "finished" to get around these laws.
The whole thing is a big gray area, involving different countries, different laws, different interpretations of those laws, and what appears to be selective enforcement of the laws with certain high profile parties.
And Steve, according to the Government officials involved, if Gibson had their fretboards completely finished in India they would be in compliance with Lacey, but they cannot say for sure what "finished" means. Do the Indian workers need to size and radius the boards? Slot them for the frets? Drill out marker dots? Apply any finish to the wood? They don't know where to draw the line, and almost none of the options would allow the instrument to remain "Made In America".
IMO, if the material Gibson imported from India violates India law, they should address the Indian company that exported it. If a foreign country specs out something from your company that violates your countries laws, you should not take or fill the order. I'm not saying that Gibson was not aware of the law and may have been aware that they were in the grey area of differing interpretations, but the source company should be crystal clear about what it can and cannot do under it's own laws.
In this particular case they are talking about the differences in "sawn wood" which some people might term as, for example 4/4, rough sawn wood, rough raw wood. From what I understand, Gibson was purchasing wood that was milled to the approximate sizes they need for fretboards, however, they were not made into fretboards, as there are many variations in radius, nut/bridge width, etc that are not done to the fretboard until after the neck is assembled. If the law were to be interpreted as they are saying now, it would be impossible to have an instrument from many of our prominent high end "Made In America" companies using many of the tonewoods that have made them and their sounds so widely coveted, as well as taking away the ability to make custom instruments to the client's desires (go ahead and talk to pro guitarist about fingerboard radius and try and get a consensus...)
At the same time, there are cases of "products" that are nothing more than dimensional lumber with a groove milled into one corner being imported as "finished" to get around these laws.
The whole thing is a big gray area, involving different countries, different laws, different interpretations of those laws, and what appears to be selective enforcement of the laws with certain high profile parties.
And Steve, according to the Government officials involved, if Gibson had their fretboards completely finished in India they would be in compliance with Lacey, but they cannot say for sure what "finished" means. Do the Indian workers need to size and radius the boards? Slot them for the frets? Drill out marker dots? Apply any finish to the wood? They don't know where to draw the line, and almost none of the options would allow the instrument to remain "Made In America".
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sbell111
Member
At the end of the day, if people aren't happy with the law, they should work to get it changed. Complaining that laws are being enforced is not productive, however.
If I get a speeding ticket on the way home from work, it isn't the cop's fault. Similarly, if Gibson gets busted for violating a law, it isn't the government's fault for enforcing same.
If I get a speeding ticket on the way home from work, it isn't the cop's fault. Similarly, if Gibson gets busted for violating a law, it isn't the government's fault for enforcing same.
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bitshird
Member
But Folks, Gibson already has at least one factory in South Korea, probably more in other countries as well. Epiphone is a Gibson Company, their better guitars POST Gibson take over were made in Korea, they also had some not so good ones from the 70s made in Japan. I agree CITES is or was a good thing carried to excess and now is a jumbled up mess, that needs to be redefined