copying work, yes you copycat.

[edstreet]

Ask Harriete: Copycats, Copycats, Copycats

Quite a good read and something that everyone should read.

I came across this article recently on copying work of others. Something that I see very large amounts here in the pen turning community, however there are a great deal of other communities with this same problem going on so I am not picking on the pen turning market. With thread topics like http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/cant-create-but-can-do-122841/ causing several artist to walk away from posting, showing work or being active in discussions I felt it was good to share this advice and hopefully open a healthy dialog with the community on this subject.

 

[glenspens]

Copycats or not a copycat....I for one have/ had pens i made before i ever found this forum or any forum for pen making and guess what ....when i get here i see pens that look like some i have made so does that make me a copycat or does it make them a copycat I think not i think that we create,copy what ever you want to call it from things we see or do everyday BUT if you look at someones work and make the same thing down to the last mark or turn then yes copycat you are

 

[keandkafu]

I always thought that when someone posted something you like or makes a statement, you want to try it also. If no one copied Henry Ford, we would not have the multiple car choices we have. Every time I copy someone's work, or I should say, try to copy, I try to improve on it and add my touchs. If someone were to copy my works (never going to happen ) I would be flattered. I don't think any of us out here are that worried that someone will copy our work and make millions! I do it for the personal satisfaction and the fun, after all isn't that why we are all here? Just my two cents for what it's worth.

Kevin

 

[William Menard]

More important is to give credit to the one your copying from. Had we not copied the art of making bread we would all be dead. I see copycats all the time in the food industry, but when I see someone copying something I came up with, I am honored but quite honestly their isn't much in life that hasn't been tried, most often its just forgotten for a while then brought back to life by a copycat. My .02

 

[Joe S.]

This is a penmaking community, all it really breaks down to is showing off and learning (copying) from the people showing off. What exactly is "don't make your own, buy from the master" going to accomplish? The ask Harriete article felt like a rant to me.

 

[WriteON]

If my pens get copied I'm honored.

 

[Krudwig]

My tag about original thought comes for the inability to remember where we have seen or heard it before has a lot of truth to it. There are very few truly new ideals that are not copied look at phones and web sites someone did have an origional thought but once it was made public it was quickly copied. I would think that if we believe something is truely new and invintive that will be valuable then we have means of protecting it via pattens and copywrite laws, otherwise if you show your work it's free game to be duplicated .

 

[Smitty37]

Limited Flexibility

Since people are often dealing with a 2 - 3 inch tube of a pretty specific diameter, there are fairly severe limits on exactly what one can do. Almost everything done will be similar to something that's already been done. The same is true with shapes there are only so much you can do on a spinning lathe so there will be a lot of shapes that are similar.

Regarding a "new" idea, unless the maker takes specific action to protect the idea (meaning it is something really new) someone else will copy it. Now in some cases copying will be difficult and involve a great deal of work in others it will be easy and not involve a lot of work. In the last instance more people will copy it than in the first. I would use JohnU's feather blanks as an example of the first instance. I wouldn't personally try to copy them because it would take so much time and effort that I'd rather just send John a check.

 

[BSea]

Copying the work is one thing. Copying a name is another. I would have no issue with making a realistic cigar pen. But in no way would I market it as a Cigar Illusion pen. And I realize that unless there were a registered name, then legally it would be ok, but IMHO it wouldn't be ethical.

I agree with Smitty, there are only so many ways to turn a pen, and only so many materials. If we only were to show totally unique pens in the SOYP forum, there might be 5 threads a month.

And I agree with Joe S. the Ask Harriete article sounded like a rant. And what's funny is she titles her page "Ask Harriete". I think she's fine with selling her advice on how to copy her work, she just doesn't want to give it away. As is her right. But saying it has a negative effect on the art & crafts industry is absurd, and sound petty to me.

Oh, and for the record, I've tried to make a feather blank. I didn't do to well, and it never became a pen.

 

[GaryMGg]

The article is from a web site offering/selling "professional advice for the A&C community."
As such and in that context it has some validity.
There are certainly times when Copying is illegal.
There are absolutely times when it's unethical and immoral.
Granted, there are some opinionated statements which can't be supported:
For example, "instead of buying the work of their art or craft hero, they create sub-quality unauthorized knock-offs."
I know a number of people who saw an idea & copied it with vast improvements.
I know some who haven't.

 

[Big]

Hasn't it been said that imitating or emulating are the highest forms of flattery?

 

[Falcon1220]

Lets close down the library and all post in the forum on "how to"
If we dont we run the risk that these things may be copied by someone.

 

[sbell111]

First, let me say that I'm sorry that I read that rant. She's butt hurt because random people are 'copying' her for their own use rather than buying her stuff. Somebody call her a Waambulance.

She's also wrong on the law, in my opinion. As I understand it, there is no law against a person painting a copy of another painting for their own enjoyment.

Related to Ed's apparent point in creating this thread, I differ with his opinion. I see nothing wrong with someone posting a picture of a pen and someone else creating one like it. Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.

 

[kovalcik]

IMO, sometimes we artists/craftsmen give ourselves a bit more credit than we deserve. To paraphrase a term used in the patent world, most of our ideas are "obvious extensions of the art". A good example is something like the stamp blanks people are making. It was a clever idea to stick stamps on a tube, but it is an extension of the the basic art of sticking objects to a tube, be it snake skin, feathers, chyogami paper, maps etc., then casting the tube. No real innovation. Where the seperation comes in is in the artistic sense you have in choosing the stamps and fitting them around the tube to best show them off. Then there are the skill of the learned mechanics of doing a crystal clear, bubble free casting.

Most of the people in the different turning/pen/woodworking groups that I belong to seem to understand this because they are more than happy to tell you exactly how to do a particular technique as far as the mechanics.

With all respect to Ms. Berman, I think her article is pleading for a level of protection that is not really due. Her rail against "Fair use" is proof of that. To put it simply, if I can easily duplicate your work from a quick glance at your booth or an online picture, maybe it is not all that innovative after all.

 

[Timebandit]

My opinion, is that the ones worried about someone else copying their work are the people directly involved in craft show or art show circuits, mainly because the are afraid that other turners/whatever craft maker, at the same shows may be selling the exact same products but at a lower price, bringing the value or their wares down. One person comes to mind, Andy, that apparantley left us recently. He never shows any pens, even if you look for them, you will only find a few that he has ever posted on IAP, but yet he was revered as an making amazing pen maker, but got questioned all the time about his credentials because he talked a lot, but never showed anything. He never showed them becasue he was active in the circuit and didnt want other turners too copy him and show up at the same show as him with the same products. I dont do craft shows and am not worried about anyone copying me. Thats why i freely show my work here. Even if i were to do PEN shows, i wouldnt be worried. Almost everything has been done before, and i am confident in the beauty of my product that i care not if the guy next to me has a similar product at a lower price. My product will sell itself. Sure full on copying is one thing, but without my product in their hand, they cant copy it exactly, it will only look similar. I say copy away, see if you can make it better than me. If you can, i applaud you. If you cant, i applaud you for trying. Copying really is flattery to me. Someone liked my stuff so much, that it inspired them to make something similar. I inspired them to try something different that they possibly never would have tried before. Ill take that anyday. Im here to help the penmaking community, no stifle it with "these are my designs and no one can make one similar, so im not going to show my work, and if i do, im going to get my feathers ruffled if someone makes something similar". I say copy on penturners. This is a craft, and we are all part of it. We are all here to learn to make better pens. Thats what IAP is for. Not to argue over i made that first, or that looks to much like mine. Thats why we have a library with hundreds of articles detailing how to "Make it Like Me" persay. I will be the first to say, "I encourage all of you to copy me freely". If you can make it better than me, or have a better/easier method, lets talk about it. Im here to learn too!! Copy on!!

 

[Boss302]

Although it can be frustrating at times for people that sell their products, copying is just a fact of life for businesses small and large, which is why you need to be constantly evolving as an artist to keep your products ahead of the copy-cats.

 

[Edward Cypher]

I only have a problem with the article in that there really is nothing new under the sun. The jewlery pieces in the article are nice but I have found the same pieces in Egyptology books dating back to Ancient Egypt. So did these artist in 2012 Copycat. Many things we turn have also been turned before and forgotton or were ahead of there time and proved to not have a market so were lost for awhile.

I do admit there are some very neat things on this site and I do try to give credit if I copy a pen. There is also new technology that gives way to new ideas which crafters capalize on.

I guess I figure if I "create" something incredible no one else will do it perfectly because it takes a lot of time and practice and mistakes even with a tutorial. It would be like me copying Sheamus (sp?) quarters I could come perhaps close after destroying 10's of dollars worth of quarters but they probably will never look as clean and crisp as his. Yet doing cut outs of coins is nothing new we were doing this in the 70's with the last of the silver coins to make jewlery and using a hand copeing saws. I have found in books neck wear that was done with roman coins back when the emporers were in power and it was against their laws to ruin a coin with the reigning persons pic on it. This is not to pick on Sheamus his stuff is outstanding and beautiful as we all know. But something similar was done decades ago to make pendants and ring. So what exactly constitutes a new idea???

I think as long as you give credit where credit is due, that is the important thing and that you do not try to sell it under the name of the current Professional. Just my 2cents worth. Not trying to cause a fight just one relative newbys view.

 

[southernclay]

She copycatted the name for her Op Ed...just sayin

I don't believe it is possible to not copy. Not in pen making, not in arts/crafts, not in life.

I do believe creativity is a beautiful thing, I try to be creative in what I do. I haven't come up with any new ideas with pens. I did do something that I thought was so it was at least a creative and new idea...to me.

Ed, I think you are just pushing for more creativity which I agree with. At the same time there's going to be some copying. The more creative we all can be though the more it gives others new ideas to copy:biggrin: Myself included

 

[Smitty37]

Think of it like this. If you make a pen barrel using a nice burl wood blank (somebody had to be first to use wood for the barrel) you are copying...if you make a pen barrel with an acrylic regardless of the color or pattern, you are copying. The center of the debate then seems to be what is ok to copy and what is not ok. PSI got a US patent on one of their kits, and claim trade mark on some others. Outside the USA their patent isn't worth the ink it took to print it several makers have offered them to me for less than PSI charges but I respect the patent. Berea tried (unsuccessfully I'd guess) to claim trade mark rights on the Sierra name. But that would not have meant the kit couldn't be copied only that we'd have to name it something else - which a lot of us did anyway.

Most pen blanks could not be patented, they just don't issue patents for 5-6 inch long pieces of material. Even if the material itself could be patented (and probably some of them are) the pen blanks made from it could not.

The name for a particular pen blank might be trade marked but that does not keep anyone from copying anything but the name. The blank could be copied - we see that on here even for some tools, they are not patented and we see the same tool show up with a different name, because the name might be trade marked.

The short answer is - if you come up with something good it will be copied. The matter is not if it will happen, it is simply when it will happen.

 

[vtgaryw]

There was a great show on "Ted Talk" on NPR this past weekend, "What is Original?" I didn't catch the whole show, but when I have a bit of time, I intend to go back and listen:

What Is Original? : TED Radio Hour : NPR

The lines are very blurred. Many, many, many (most, in fact) inventions, works of art, songs, literature, etc. "borrow" heavily from those that went before us. There have been very few genuinely "eureka" totally new ideas or works created.

That said, there are limits to how much copying is too much.

I assume that if a pen turner posts a detailed "how to" article in the library, the design is fair game. That said, I still try to put my own twist on them all to add a little uniqueness.

Gary

 

[Krash]

I guess I understand what made Harriete write this, and her arguments are somewhat compelling considered in a vacuum, but I don't track with her on a larger scale. True masters are not defined by their medium or broad technique, they use the medium and technique to express their creativity and emotions at the time of production. I think that is why they say imitation is the highest form of flattery. The admirer can only attempt to reproduce the result and while a talented craftsman may be able to do a respectable job, the master just moves on to create another masterpiece, not because of a new technique but because of the original emotion put into it. Those that rely soley on a secret technique are probably only craftsmen that have found something reproducible and marketworthy that sets them apart from the other craftsmen. A true artist could care less who's following them.

Her statement is telling:
"The innovator, lacking a market for selling their work may ultimately relent to teaching a workshop purely for economic survival. Or the master might feel obligated or pressured to teach these copycat workshops by the very admirers of their work."

She throws the word "master" around pretty liberally and attaches it to the word "innovator". I assume she considers herself a master innovator.

But again, I think a master just goes on with his business of expressing him/her self in whatever medium is at hand. New innovation or not, the master creates original work that others wish they could do.

 

[Akula]

I didn't read all the posts but anyone who is buying blanks from someone or some vendor all run the risk of the pens looking the same. Being able to duplicate casting resins is what makes someone good at casting.

 

[Smitty37]

There was a great show on "Ted Talk" on NPR this past weekend, "What is Original?" I didn't catch the whole show, but when I have a bit of time, I intend to go back and listen:

What Is Original? : TED Radio Hour : NPR

The lines are very blurred. Many, many, many (most, in fact) inventions, works of art, songs, literature, etc. "borrow" heavily from those that went before us. There have been very few genuinely "eureka" totally new ideas or works created.

That said, there are limits to how much copying is too much.

I assume that if a pen turner posts a detailed "how to" article in the library, the design is fair game. That said, I still try to put my own twist on them all to add a little uniqueness.

Gary

True enough, but the question is how much is too much and the answer is totally subjective.

 

[kovalcik]

This quote that Krash used raised a couple of thoughts with me:

Her statement is telling:
"The innovator, lacking a market for selling their work may ultimately relent to teaching a workshop purely for economic survival. Or the master might feel obligated or pressured to teach these copycat workshops by the very admirers of their work."


1) If the innovator cannot sell their work, then there would be no damage to them by other people copying the work.

2) If the work is not marketable (which I equate with not liked) who would want to copy it?

 

[Smitty37]

This quote that Krash used raised a couple of thoughts with me:

Her statement is telling:
"The innovator, lacking a market for selling their work may ultimately relent to teaching a workshop purely for economic survival. Or the master might feel obligated or pressured to teach these copycat workshops by the very admirers of their work."


1) If the innovator cannot sell their work, then there would be no damage to them by other people copying the work.

2) If the work is not marketable (which I equate with not liked) who would want to copy it?

Conversely if there is no market for it why would I want to attend a workshop on how to make it? The second reason does make some, but not much sense. A master might have a lot of reasons for teaching a workshop including that his "product" is selling faster than he can make it. A master plumber might find his services in such demand that he will hire and train new workers who can only do perhaps half the job but it does release him for the more important aspects.

 

[sbell111]

I didn't read all the posts but anyone who is buying blanks from someone or some vendor all run the risk of the pens looking the same. Being able to duplicate casting resins is what makes someone good at casting.

I'm reminded of a vendor at one of the big shows that we sell at. Her pens are really well made, but to my eye, her booth looks like the PSI catalog threw up. She doesn't have anything unique because she buys all of her kits and blanks off the rack. Customers have seen her stuff in dribs and drabs from every other pen maker that they have ever seen.

 

[Dan Hintz]

My main money maker is electronics (at least it was in years past). It's one of the few (only?) areas I can be truly creative and create things no one else can/has. Plenty have wanted to copy my projects, told me straight to my face, and my reply is always the same... I wish you luck. If they're willing to put in the time/effort to recreate what I've done, more power to them. If they manage to improve on what I've done, then I'm impressed.

But I don't begrudge them for wanting something I have created. If they want it, they have two choices: 1) Buy mine, or 2) Make their own. I know the satisfaction of deciphering someone else's work (part of the reason "reverse engineering" is in my resume's skillset), and I know the satisfaction of doing a job yourself. If they're willing to put in the time and energy to copy me, they deserve their well-fought booty.

From an artistic standpoint, I am not a "creator"... my muse spends the majority of her time plastered, and the only thing that makes her perk up is when she sees someone else's beautiful work. It gives her ideas, which causes me to try and not just recreate what I see, but create plus. I try to take it to the next level. But to get to that next level, I often have to reach the same level that gave my muse her ideas... which looks like copying. And it is. But not only that, it's working out the kinks and perfecting a skill.

I see copying as flattering. It's pretty arrogant to think because you chose a specific style of paper to put on a pen that you own the idea of any paper... or bottlecaps, or stamps, or, or, or... I would guess I see something truly unique in pens about once every few months. For that few minutes, I marvel at the quality of the work, the true artistic nature of it. And then I go back to seeing the same kits that I and everyone else makes day in and day out. But man, those unique pens sure do inspire my muse...

 

[beck3906]

Stealing Intellectual Property at the Art Fairs - Art Fair Insiders

 

[Smitty37]

Stealing Intellectual Property at the Art Fairs - Art Fair Insiders

This is talking specifically about copyright violations related to photographing their work. I don't pretend to know anything about that, I know performers normally ban camera's from their performances so it must have some validity. That being said, it is an argument that just does not hold up if you take a picture yourself and post it in a public domain like this forum.
Anyone can both study it in detail and print it. With respect to pens and pen blanks, I believe much more copying is done through this media then at Art Shows.

 

[Whaler]

After reading all of these posts, was bored and had nothing else to do, I think everyone that is capable should create something new and different so the others have something to copy.
To me the whole thread is childish crap.

 

[Daju]

I once knew a Frenchman. A very skilled craftsman and excellent model builder. I mean in the days when physical rather than virtual architectural models were highly sought after. His mantra was " I'll do it for you but I won't show you how." Unfortunately he passed away before he could see to the continuation of his skills. So the question is, are true apprentices considered copycats?

 

[beck3906]

Protecting intellectual property.....

Does Penn State protecting its bolt action count?

And what about Jeff Powell? He's invested hundreds of hours writing code for his blanks.

What will be said when this style blank floods our shores?

 

[Janster]

....well then, can I now not expect ANYONE to make a Masking Tape based pen?...:wink::wink:

 

[seamus7227]

Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.

I have my own opinion on this subject, but it is apparent that the masses out there are all about "copying" rather than supporting the within the group so I wont waste too much of my breathe. However, the highlighted comment above begs the question, "what determines whether or not a blanks price is 'inflated' or not?" After all, does the person questioning that "value" truly understand the amount of time and work that was put into creating them?

I would much rather spend more time turning blanks(that i purchased from a blank maker) and assembling pens, than trying to figure out how it "might" have been created.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Innovation comes from imitation. Aristotle observed, thousands of years ago, that humans learn from imitation. This instinct begins in the cradle - we'd be naiive to think it stops when we grow older. We imitate, and then we permutate. Otherwise, we'd all still be writing with feathers!

 

[Displaced Canadian]

Just because someone is walking behind you doesn't mean they are following you. They may just be going in the same direction.

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

Innovation comes from imitation. Aristotle observed, thousands of years ago, that humans learn from imitation. This instinct begins in the cradle - we'd be naiive to think it stops when we grow older. We imitate, and then we permutate. Otherwise, we'd all still be writing with feathers!

Sounds about right...
Noo It is exactly right.

 

[sbell111]

Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.

I have my own opinion on this subject, but it is apparent that the masses out there are all about "copying" rather than supporting the within the group so I wont waste too much of my breathe. However, the highlighted comment above begs the question, "what determines whether or not a blanks price is 'inflated' or not?" After all, does the person questioning that "value" truly understand the amount of time and work that was put into creating them?

I would much rather spend more time turning blanks(that i purchased from a blank maker) and assembling pens, than trying to figure out how it "might" have been created.

Obviously, the person who is making the 'make or buy' decision is the one who determines whether the price is appropriate.

 

[JP61]

:usflag: Seeking copyright protection for newly developed anti-whine suppository medication.

 

[Dan Hintz]

Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.

I have my own opinion on this subject, but it is apparent that the masses out there are all about "copying" rather than supporting the within the group so I wont waste too much of my breathe. However, the highlighted comment above begs the question, "what determines whether or not a blanks price is 'inflated' or not?" After all, does the person questioning that "value" truly understand the amount of time and work that was put into creating them?

I'm at an age (and tax bracket) that purchasing can often be much easier than making my own... but I still weight every decision with a financial risk/reward ratio. But sometimes you just want to make it yourself for the fun of it. You know you can do it, the cost will be half of a pre-made blank, you're looking for something to do this weekend, so you go ahead with it. You could pay $10 for that blank, or you could spend $2 in parts and 4 hours in time... even a McDonald's employee salary says that pre-made blank is more cost effective, but you make it anyway, because you're a hobbyist. If my business depended upon pen sales, I would more heavily consider buying the blank outright and be done with it.

I would much rather spend more time turning blanks(that i purchased from a blank maker) and assembling pens, than trying to figure out how it "might" have been created.

That's likely because you don't have "The Knack". See here:
Dilbert - The Knack "The Curse of the Engineer" - YouTube
I (and others) truly enjoy figuring out how something was done. It's a sickness.

I recently saw a blank here that I liked, so I asked the maker if they did it via process 'X'. Nope, so I tweaked my description some and got a "getting closer" answer. On my next try I nailed the process. So I figured out how they did it. In return, I offered several ways I would have done it, which gave the blank maker a new (and possibly faster) way of doing it, as well as offering up a wider variety of styles. I didn't just steal the idea, I improved upon it, and gave the improved idea back.

:usflag: Seeking copyright protection for newly developed anti-whine suppository medication.

Do you apply it to your whole head? :wink::biggrin: