Using accelerator to glue tubes

[BrianGrimm]

Greetings all,

I'm very new to pen turning (turned two at a WoodCraft event 10 years ago, then nothing). My question is about how the accelerator works in practice.

After I drill the blank, scuff the tube, apply the glue and insert the tube into the blank, I've seen many people apply accelerator to the exposed end of the blank/tube. Does the reaction triggered by the accelerator travel down the tube, or is it only working on the glue exposed at the end of the tube?

I've tried to find this information from manufacturers, all I've found is info about the initial chemical reaction.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[jokker78]

That's a good question. Who really knows?

 

[leehljp]

It does not travel down/go deep unless there is only air for it to go through. There is little extra contact after the initial outside/end contact.

The results of lack of good contact:
Some people have excellent experience with CA and tubes; many use epoxy and the rest use polyurethane glue. Poly has the least "blowouts"; Epoxy has less blowouts than CA, but that is subjective due to the fact that more people use CA, or CA and accelerator. I had my share of it long ago and it was amazing to see a blow and a smooth underside where the CA came loose and then all the spaces that CA did not contact both the blank and brass. It is surprising how much of the space between the tube and blank are NOT filled/in contact with CA or epoxy.

Accelerator does not increase that contact area appreciably. It has been my experience that CA and epoxy have about the same adhesion area.

Poly glue does. But polyurethane glue is messy and takes over night or all day to cure.

To dispel any illusions on how much CA or epoxy is inside between the tube and the blank, I can give two examples. 1 is purely subjective but consistent: I have filled globs of CA and coated a tube in a thick layer of CA; then plugged an end of the tube and twisted it slowly into the blank. Gobs of epoxy came out the other end. Later after a blowout, it was obvious that pushing epoxy out did not create full contact. Thick and medium CA did the same.

2. All one has to do is check with people who use cast blanks and coat the inside. For a while, it was thought to be enough to paint the tube. But enough people realized the unevenness of CA or epoxy attachment. That alone speaks to CA (and epoxy) not adhering as much as originally thought. At this point, people started painting the inside of the cast blank to give a more consistent background.

I know you are looking at the CA + accelerant, but there is more to it than a yes / no answer.

 

[MPVic]

It does not travel down/go deep unless there is only air for it to go through. There is little extra contact after the initial outside/end contact.

The results of lack of good contact:
Some people have excellent experience with CA and tubes; many use epoxy and the rest use polyurethane glue. Poly has the least "blowouts"; Epoxy has less blowouts than CA, but that is subjective due to the fact that more people use CA, or CA and accelerator. I had my share of it long ago and it was amazing to see a blow and a smooth underside where the CA came loose and then all the spaces that CA did not contact both the blank and brass. It is surprising how much of the space between the tube and blank are NOT filled/in contact with CA or epoxy.

Accelerator does not increase that contact area appreciably. It has been my experience that CA and epoxy have about the same adhesion area.

Poly glue does. But polyurethane glue is messy and takes over night or all day to cure.

To dispel any illusions on how much CA or epoxy is inside between the tube and the blank, I can give two examples. 1 is purely subjective but consistent: I have filled globs of CA and coated a tube in a thick layer of CA; then plugged an end of the tube and twisted it slowly into the blank. Gobs of epoxy came out the other end. Later after a blowout, it was obvious that pushing epoxy out did not create full contact. Thick and medium CA did the same.

2. All one has to do is check with people who use cast blanks and coat the inside. For a while, it was thought to be enough to paint the tube. But enough people realized the unevenness of CA or epoxy attachment. That alone speaks to CA (and epoxy) not adhering as much as originally thought. At this point, people started painting the inside of the cast blank to give a more consistent background.

I know you are looking at the CA + accelerant, but there is more to it than a yes / no answer.

Hank, I totally agree - I have had blowouts with epoxy even though I took care to rough the tube, coat the inside of the blank, etc. The poly is the way to go, regardless of the mess factor.

 

[greenacres2]

Awesome answer Hank--lot of good stuff there, and i've seen most of it in person. That's a post that just summarizes the tube gluing very well.

I glue most resins and some very oily woods with epoxy, and the rest of wood with thick or gel CA. I hit the ends of the blank with a kiss of accelerator, only to keep me from sticking it somewhere it doesn't belong (end of thumb, bench top, pair of scissors, or anything else that should not have been there in the first place!!) As Hank said, if i got good coverage on the blank, there should not be any migration of accelerator beyond a mm or two.
earl

 

[WriteON]

Start without it. After you get your technique established you can decide to use an accelerator or skip. I rarely use it. Glue and let it cure.

 

[studioseven]

I saw a video once on using accelerator. The presenter called the accelerator a catalyst meaning that the hardening would travel the length of the ca on the tube. I am by no means an expert on this just contributing something I saw. Myself, I always left my blanks dry for 24 hours before turning.

Seven

 

[MTViper]

I've used CA, epoxy, and poly. I almost never use CA any more because it doesn't give me the hold I need. I never use it with a synthetic blank and never used accelerator. I rarely use poly any more because of the time it takes to dry. My go to glue now is System Three BarrelBond. It combines some qualities of poly and epoxy. As it dries it expands. I've never had a failure since I switched to BB. And I usually let my blanks dry for 24 hours before I turn them just to make sure.

 

[KenB259]

I stopped using CA for gluing in tubes long ago. Don't know why you use accelerator when gluing in tubes, because I had many instances of the tube sticking out 1/4 inch or more when the glue stuck tight. I switched to epoxy and have not regretted it. The recommended drill bit us not always the best one. You don't want the hole too tight. If it is you will end up with a glue starved "joint" , for lack of a better word.

 

[jttheclockman]

I never use CA because I believe it is too brittle and any catch can break it loose of tube and it is not gap filling as other have pointed out. I do not use poly because it is a mess that is not needed. I do use System 3 epoxy and have ever since I started turning pens and never had a failure. The key is a good drill sized hole and that comes with experience. You do not want alot of slop and you do not want to tight to starve the joint. I apply epoxy to both inside blank and around tube. Insert from one end swirling as I do. Pull it out and respread glue on tube and now insert from opposite end and I know full coverage has been achieved.

 

[Warren White]

I started with epoxy, then switched to medium CA (no accelerator); then switched Gorilla Glue (I think it was white Gorilla Glue), then settled on Clear Gorilla Glue. I see no need to use anything but the Clear Gorilla Glue now (WAY easier to clean up). Remember to add a bit of water to the drilled hole (I use a q tip with a sparse amount of water, but be very judicious with some woods since they have a tendency to expand when wet). I leave the blank at least overnight before cleaning them and beginning to turn the blank.

Works for me, but others have their own methodology as you see.

 

[WriteON]

CA...faster, cheaper, easier to work with/apply. Nothing wrong with either. (epoxy or CA).... but do not constantly breath CA
.

 

[Gary Beasley]

After experiencing too many breakouts I tried wicking some thin CA into the ends where I could see slight gaps between the tube and wood. This resulted in way better results for me though I do have to clean up the insides of the tube ends with an exacto knife to get the bushings to fit.

 

[More4dan]

I use both CA and Epoxy. I add glue to the blank opposite of the end I insert the tube and on the tube itself. That way as the glue spearheads out and off the tube it encounters the glue in the blank to give better coverage. The accelerator sprayed on the ends? All I can see is to harden the glue so the blank doesn't stick to my fingers.


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[More4dan]

I use both CA and Epoxy. I add glue to the blank opposite of the end I insert the tube and on the tube itself. That way as the glue spearheads out and off the tube it encounters the glue in the blank to give better coverage. The accelerator sprayed on the ends? All I can see is to harden the glue so the blank doesn't stick to my fingers.


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@#$& auto spell/fill. The glue spreads out ...




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[BrianGrimm]

I appreciate all of your comments. As suggested, I'll try different methods until I find what works for me.

 

[BrianGrimm]

...
Remember to add a bit of water to the drilled hole (I use a q tip with a sparse amount of water, but be very judicious with some woods since they have a tendency to expand when wet).
...

Thanks. This was the question I was going to ask next, knowing that Gorilla Glue requires some moisture to activate.

 

[WriteON]

After experiencing too many breakouts I tried wicking some thin CA into the ends where I could see slight gaps between the tube and wood. This resulted in way better results for me though I do have to clean up the insides of the tube ends with an exacto knife to get the bushings to fit.

plug the tubes ends with dental base plate wax

 

[howsitwork]

I go with epoxy but slow setting stuff so I have manoeuvring time. Spread it using a stick into the blank hole and scrape round. Then apply some to the plugged tube end ( i use blu tac to plug the tube) and insert it twisting as I go. Last bit I use a tapered insertion tool made from HDPE again twisting as I push it home just below the blank end.

I have had blow outs happen and on examining the tube and blank bits I am happy with the coverage achieved and adhesion. But I do on occasions, if I see any gaps or torn grain at the end of the blank, apply a small amount of this CA to gap fill and firm up the timber in that area. With CA I found the coverage was not as good due to the CA being absorbed into the timber in places. Not tried CA with plastics or cast times so cannot comment but I stick ( no pun int) with epoxy.

With both methods I allow the epoxy glue or CA to cure overnight in a warm place .

I am told by a very experienced turner( but have not experienced it ) that accelerator can lead to surface curing and you can still,have some pockets of liquid CA inside which ,as you turn can cause some issues ( his spectacles became splattered and his language became "liberal" ) BUT this was on bowl blanks not pen size blanks.

 

[Chasper]

I use thick CA and I spray accelerator in both ends. I have occasionally glued in a tube, squared the ends within 5 minutes, and turned it down to size within the next five minutes. I don't do that with most of what I make, but if a have a special order that is rushed I will do it that quick. It is my strongly held belief that poor glue jobs don't cause blow outs, overly aggressive tool work causes blow outs. Any glue will hold if turned carefully, no glue will hold if the turning is too aggressive.

I've turned 3-4,000 pen sections annually for the past 10-12 years, 99% of them were glued with thick CA. I still get a blow out now and then when I'm in a rush.

 

[pshrynk]

@#$& auto spell/fill. The glue spreads out ...




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Spears works, too!

 

[KenB259]

I appreciate all of your comments. As suggested, I'll try different methods until I find what works for me.

That's the absolute best course of action. Same goes for applying a CA finish. Find what works for you.


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[MyDadsPens]

I never use CA for pen tubes - it has very weak strength against impact - like a catch during turning, maybe even a drop onto a hard floor ? I would never waste Accelerator on tubes its way too expensive.
I used epoxy for a while BUT I hate the 5 minute open time if I have a bunch of blanks -its not long enough - I also had some failures a few years ago from the $1 harbor freight epoxy (I think it was old) I have never had a failure with original Gorilla Glue (don't use white its the same as titebond and not good on metal) I don't find Gorilla messy it can be easily cleaned with acetone ---I have used it when it is so old I need pliers to squeeze the bottle and I love the foam - it tells me it has gap filled and when its hard, its ready to turn - I let sit overnight BUT on a few occasions I have turned blanks after 8 or 10 hours of cure time - Also a great benefit to Gorilla is you can use a 9/32 drill bit instead of the 7mm bit not only cheaper but you can easily get 9/32 at Home depot or tractor supply.
To wet the blank before Gorilla get a $3 brush from Walmart that cleans metal straws (Qtips introduce cotton to the hole which I don't like) check blanks after 10 minutes to make sure the tubes haven't crept out due to not level resting - if you want to test the strength of gorilla try dealing with a slightly proud tube after a couple of hours of drying
NOTE - With the hard foam I think a pen mill is a must for Gorilla glued blanks

I do wood blanks most of the time ---Any guys here use Gorilla for the Acrylic pens ?

 

[ramaroodle]

Short answer. Don't use CA on tubes. My feeling is that when you seal the ends it keeps the rest of the CA from curing. Not sure about that but I think CA cures in air. I stopped using CA on tubes. When your blanks blow apart you'll see there is no glue bond. Either 2 part 5-minute or 30-minute epoxy or Gorilla Glue. (poly) Use a Qtip to coat the inside of the blank with water. It activates the glue.

I use either GG or epoxy on acrylic. Both work well.