ThinkTank: The 360 Herringbone Experiment

[akbar24601]

Okay, there seems to be a tremendous amount of buzz lately about the 360 HB. So here's my thought: instead of wasting all of your efforts trying to figure out how to bleed it out of the guy that already knows how to do it, let's use this thread as a think tank for those of you that don't. It seems to me that there are plenty of you out there that certainly have thoughts, ideas, concepts and even failed prototypes of the design. Why not use this thread to bring your thoughts together. Brainstorm and see what you cancome up with!

Those that do know how to do it, please don't use this thread as a place to give it away!!! Let's get some gears turning! You know as well as I do that these folks can do it and this might be just the avenue that takes them there!

If it seems that someone may be on the right track, some gentle prodding would be fine but give the inexperienced a chance to jump in with their thoughts before you do.

All of you that want to learn, have fun with this! I think that this could prove to be a great experience for many!!!

 

[wolftat]

I personally think that instead of dwelling on a pattern that has been done, we should work to create one that hasn't been done yet. Some of our biggest successes are built out of our failures. But it's your show Dad, so let the games begin.

 

[akbar24601]

A very valid point Son. But, there seems to be a whole lot of people that want to spin their wheels on this one so why not give 'em a playground to do it in! Besides, who knows what kind of new craziness may stem from this.

Oh yes, a side note to all: Please, don't anyone just sit on the sidelines and feel that they are not worthy to participate!!! Every idea is a valid one and can typically find a home somewhere. You may be the only person thinking your thought and if you don't spit it out for fear of lack of experience or whatever then we all just might miss out on the next best thing since the Donut Holes!!!!!

 

[Wheaties]

Is there somewhere to go that explains what this is? Sorry, I'm still learning. What exactly is HB 360? I know no one knows how to do it, but I don't even know what it is.

Thanks

 

[ed4copies]

Okay, there seems to be a tremendous amount of buzz lately about the 360 HB. So here's my thought: instead of wasting all of your efforts trying to figure out how to bleed it out of the guy that already knows how to do it, let's use this thread as a think tank for those of you that don't. It seems to me that there are plenty of you out there that certainly have thoughts, ideas, concepts and even failed prototypes of the design. Why not use this thread to bring your thoughts together. Brainstorm and see what you cancome up with!

Those that do know how to do it, please don't use this thread as a place to give it away!!! Let's get some gears turning! You know as well as I do that these folks can do it and this might be just the avenue that takes them there!

If it seems that someone may be on the right track, some gentle prodding would be fine but give the inexperienced a chance to jump in with their thoughts before you do.

All of you that want to learn, have fun with this! I think that this could prove to be a great experience for many!!!

No, Steve, I'm afraid I DON'T KNOW that. I believe there are many folks who CAN figure things out. But, not too long ago, someone said, on this very forum, "I can't do this with just the TUTORIAL (with pictures), isn't there a video or U-tube??"

We, who are old, have raised a generation of children who can really push buttons on video games. Never HAD to figure out why the car won't start. Never rode a bike, no need to FIX it!! In short, their life experience is "ask, someone will provide."

This thread will, I hope, prove there are "other" mindsets. Now, all you old guys shut up and let the youngsters "strutt their stuff"!!!

I'd sure like to be proven WRONG!!!

 

[Phunky_2003]

Dunno if I am a youngster or an old guy....... dunno which side of the fence to sit on. Can I just go sit by the cooler and drink?

Umm I will ask a question that's been on my mind. Whats the difference between a herringbone.. herringbone 180 and herringbone 360? And for that matter if you know how to do the herringbone 180 wouldn't you just double whatever it is for the 360?

Guess we clarified I'd be a youngster...

 

[Rollerbob]

Ed, I'm old and I don't know how to do it!!:frown:......................but I can ride a bike and fix it!!:biggrin: Do I have to shut up??

 

[akbar24601]

Thank you ED! I do stand corrected. My wording was wrong and I am glad that you called me on it

Is there somewhere to go that explains what this is? Sorry, I'm still learning. What exactly is HB 360? I know no one knows how to do it, but I don't even know what it is.

Thanks

Hiya Wheaties! The following pic shows the 360 HB design. It is your basic HB design that actually wraps around the whole blank.

 

[ed4copies]

Bob,

I'm OLD and DON'T KNOW how to do it. But, if I wanted to make one, I would look at the pictures here. The edges are square on Bruce Robbins pic.

If I go much farther, I will be exhibiting the talent I believe has died. I will be FIGURING OUT how to do it. Let's HOPE LOTS of people will show that talent. It would make Eagle smile.

 

[PR_Princess]

I find the timing of the discussion on this thread (and the related ones), strangely appropriate.....and fitting. Thank You Steve et al.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming.....:biggrin:

 

[jimbob91577]

Steve, do you happen to have an end shot of the same blank you just posted?

 

[ed4copies]

Steve, do you happen to have an end shot of the same blank you just posted?

BRILLIANT query!!!!!!
​

 

[ed4copies]

Ed, I'm old and I don't know how to do it!!:frown:......................but I can ride a bike and fix it!!:biggrin: Do I have to shut up??

A) That was a RUDE choice of words on my part, I apologize, "Sit back, pop some popcorn and watch the show" would have been MUCH better.

B) I have no RIGHT to TELL anyone what to do, so consider it a SUGGESTION, certainly NOT a command.

Sorry, I was caught up in getting it posted and got downright UNcivil - MY ERROR!!!

 

[Wheaties]

I still must be lost on this. Why can't you just glue up the pieces in the correct order. What's the major hurddle I'm not seeing?

 

[jimbob91577]

I think I may have figured it out, but don't have the means to build it...who should I ask (in a PM of course) for confirmation - just looking for a yes or no answer not details.

I won't share until who I ask shares.

UPDATE:
Sorry, my thought process doesn't produce what is pictured in the post on page 1...

 

[jimbob91577]

I still must be lost on this. Why can't you just glue up the pieces in the correct order. What's the major hurddle I'm not seeing?

Probably good joinery. I imagine getting all of the glue joints just perfect would be a big problem.

I think there is a much simpler way to do it.

 

[skiprat]

Personally, I think this is wrong. By the end of this thread the whole world will know how to do this design. :frown: Far too soon to ruin someones hard work.
Although the 360 HB was the item in question, I think the discussion was about sharing.

I reckon we should allow the mystery to run it's natural coarse.

 

[jkeithrussell]

I still must be lost on this. Why can't you just glue up the pieces in the correct order. What's the major hurddle I'm not seeing?

Try it. Or sketch it in 3 dimensions. Then, I think, you will see the hurdle(s).

I'm all for people sharing information, and I've had people walk me through a lot of different aspects of pen turning and finishing, but at some point you have to log off and go to your shop and try it. Personally, I hope this doesn't turn into a tutorial (at least not yet) because the project really challenges your ability to think through the design process.

 

[CHEF]

Hi Don't know if I,am in the right place or not . I love the site and I love looking at all the forum's I don't think that I have voiced my opinion. well i hope that you keep it as it is well for me anyway I,am learning so much, and you all give excellent advice for a beginner.I,am getting there I hope it's finish tat gets me sometimes or I forget which pen that I,am doing . But at our age getting a pen off the lathe is an achievement. anyway when and if I manage to get a good pen done I'll post it (when I learn to post to your site) thanks for listening to me I tend to go on and on and on.
-----------------------------------Brian---------------------------------------

 

[workinforwood]

Oh, ok. You make square corner jig with some wood, wax the jig, put some wax paper down on the table. You cut several uniform strips, then set up a stop and chop them up into a bazillion uniform length pieces. I'll just say as a guess, every piece is 1/4" wide and maybe 1/2-5/8 inch long..the length is the tricky part..after you make one, if it's too wide, you shorten the length...and they are 3/4 thick. you press two pieces into the corner jig, add two more and two more, gluing and pressing together as you go till you have a long row. Then you flip the herringbone on it's side and with just single strips, fill in the ends. completely flip and repeat on other side. It's alot of work...be much faster and more productive to make panels and then cut those into staves. I'm 99% sure that would work, but if I am the 1% wrong..then you'll end up with something new and cool just the same.

 

[ed4copies]

Oh, ok. You make square corner jig with some wood, wax the jig, put some wax paper down on the table. You cut several uniform strips, then set up a stop and chop them up into a bazillion uniform length pieces. I'll just say as a guess, every piece is 1/4" wide and maybe 1/2-5/8 inch long..the length is the tricky part..after you make one, if it's too wide, you shorten the length...and they are 3/4 thick. you press two pieces into the corner jig, add two more and two more, gluing and pressing together as you go till you have a long row. Then you flip the herringbone on it's side and with just single strips, fill in the ends. completely flip and repeat on other side. It's alot of work...be much faster and more productive to make panels and then cut those into staves. I'm 99% sure that would work, but if I am the 1% wrong..then you'll end up with something new and cool just the same.

Do you have a U-tube of that?

 

[jimbob91577]

...be much faster and more productive to make panels and then cut those into staves. ...

I'm not sure how you would get the stepped joints though if you did it this way?

 

[Rollerbob]

A) That was a RUDE choice of words on my part, I apologize, "Sit back, pop some popcorn and watch the show" would have been MUCH better.

B) I have no RIGHT to TELL anyone what to do, so consider it a SUGGESTION, certainly NOT a command.

Sorry, I was caught up in getting it posted and got downright UNcivil - MY ERROR!!!

Oh, I was pulling your chain!! No harm no foul. Just making a point, as you reminded me that I was old!!:wink:

 

[hebertjo]

Here is what I have learned from postings by those who know.

BRobbins629:
Hint #1. There's more than one way.
Hint #2 See my avatar (it looks like a flat herringbone pattern)
Hint #3. For my method, it doesn't have to be a glued up blank. It can be built around a tube.
Hint #4 Quesion: are the cuts done on 30 degrees?
Answer: For my method, it doesn't have to be a glued up blank. It can be built around a tube.

After reading Bruce's hints I am guessing that he lays out a veneer in the herringbone pattern and then wraps and glues that around the pen. If this is true then a good deal of planning must be involved to get the pattern to line up once wrapped around the tube and each tube would require a different set of dimensions.

I found this quote from Bruce in another thread:

"Will also work with veneer and a little planning. This one is a 360 degree pattern."


The other method is to glue up a solid blank. I am still working on this one. Here are the hints I have found on this method

TribalRR:
Hint #1:The number rows of herringbones depends on the angle of the triangles. The pics I posted have 3; 6 pieces per layer.
Hint #2: I started with 3/16" thick triangles and went from there...

So it seems that your basic building block must be a triangle and the number of rows of herringbone pattern depends on the angle of the triangle. Just to mess around I made some equlateral triangles (all angles are 60) out of foam and it gave me 4 herringbones and it took 8 pieces to complete one layer. However the last piece did not line up correctly so I am missing something. I suspect that you must use isosceles triangles and that the angle must be exact to get the pieces to line up. That is as far as I got.


With regard to giving away the secret:
Regardless of how you make your 360 herringbone pattern I am guessing it is a ton of work and no matter what resonable price you get for the resulting pen (or blank) it will not be as profitable percentage wise as other blanks/kits that take less time to complete. Here is quote from Bruce that sums it up.


"Thanks to all for your comments. The woods are ebony and maple. I actually have made attempts at this with 3 different techniques. Will consider a tutorial when I have at least one of them perfected. I will say that my technique does not lend itself to making a profit. Took about 10 days to make the blank and that was after figuring out how to do it. With all the early failed experiments and mock-ups, I probably have more than 30 hours in this but the techniques could lend themselves to some interesting designs. More to come... "

 

[workinforwood]

No matter how many ways there might be to pull it off, there sure will be a lot of saw dust!

 

[workinforwood]

I'm not sure how you would get the stepped joints though if you did it this way?

That's a great point Bob! you'll end up with a ton of zig zags around the pen instead of the length of the pen...so I invented the next evolution in pen blank technology! :biggrin: It's tough to sit here and surmise a solution without going out to the shop and doing it. So much to do, so little time.

 

[jimbob91577]

...The woods are ebony and maple. ... "

I would think Ebony would be a tough wood to make a veneer out of that would wrap in that tight of a diameter without blowing out a glue joint or cracking...keep in mind you would still have to leave enough material on the tube to turn/sand away and finish.

I would also wonder how you would overcome the whole "outside of the veneer has a larger circumference than the inside of the veneer" issue. Consider a 3/8" diameter pen tube. The inside circumference of the veneer would be ~1.18" thus if you make the thickness of your veneer say 1/8" the outside circumference would be 1.57".

I'm not saying this isn't the way it is done, but it would sound very difficult to do.

 

[bitshird]

No matter how many ways there might be to pull it off, there sure will be a lot of saw dust!

Or a lot of bloody fingers. As in work your fingers to the bone what do you get
bloody fingers???

 

[workinforwood]

ok. he made two regular herringbone blanks and they are laminated together, but the one on the back is inverted...meaning it's flipped end over end. This way all the straight strips glued on the side angle across to one another.

 

[jimbob91577]

That's a great point Bob! you'll end up with a ton of zig zags around the pen instead of the length of the pen...so I invented the next evolution in pen blank technology! :biggrin: It's tough to sit here and surmise a solution without going out to the shop and doing it. So much to do, so little time.

Actually this was my original thought process too, only I was also thinking of making the miter joint a compound miter...

Be lucky you can go to the shop and do something like this - I don't trust my bandsaw to make cuts that accurately. My garage is slowly becoming my shop as I make more and more trips to the landfill and goodwill.

 

[hebertjo]

I would think Ebony would be a tough wood to make a veneer out of that would wrap in that tight of a diameter without blowing out a glue joint or cracking...keep in mind you would still have to leave enough material on the tube to turn/sand away and finish.

I would also wonder how you would overcome the whole "outside of the veneer has a larger circumference than the inside of the veneer" issue. Consider a 3/8" diameter pen tube. The inside circumference of the veneer would be ~1.18" thus if you make the thickness of your veneer say 1/8" the outside circumference would be 1.57".

I'm not saying this isn't the way it is done, but it would sound very difficult to do.

I totally agree with everything you are saying and I am just guessing at how he did it based on the comments I found. Personally I am more interested in figuring out the other method because it seems it would work for all tube sizes.

 

[jimbob91577]

With Toung in Cheek

- Comment removed by jimbob91577 -

I suggested an idea cheekly and it could be cheep knock-off solution for someone wanting to do something like this but doesn't actually solve the problem at hand and produce the real results.

 

[wolftat]

Just remenmber, if you think you have the answer, don't post it here, this is for everyone to work on, not for one person to figure it out and everyone else nod there heads and run to the shop. I don't think that is why this thread was started.

 

[ed4copies]

He could have printed a picture of a herringbone design, glued it around the tube, and cast it in PR before turning?

I KNOW how to DO that!!!!

 

[jimbob91577]

I KNOW how to DO that!!!!

Have you done it with autumn aspen leaves? If so, I would be interested in having a couple blanks made up if the cost wasn't too prohibitive. And if you think they would look good..

www.aspenlakewoodworks.com

Beware of picture size at the moment - having to make more changes to the website...

 

[bdonald]

Just remenmber, if you think you have the answer, don't post it here, this is for everyone to work on, not for one person to figure it out and everyone else nod there heads and run to the shop. I don't think that is why this thread was started.

I agree, I was sitting here looking at it, and for some reason, something came to me, one of those "slap your head" moments. I wont be able to test it and see for another week <my shop is set up primarily for the lathe now, had to finish up these projects first and reset it>, but looking forward to trying it. Also to see if my deductive reasoning is correct I think it would have taken all the fun out of it if I went down with a printout of step by step instructions, kinda like figuring out the rubik's cube!

 

[miket812]

I am new to this forum and I have very few post. I have only been turning pens for less thean a year and I think that I have figured it out. Before I post it, and give it away I would like to pm whoever it is that is the mastermind and get his approval. I will probly not ever make this style pen due to the work invovled and the time pertaining. I am just wondering if I have the right idea. I do not want to waist anyones time as it is very valuable to us all.

 

[akbar24601]

Steve, do you happen to have an end shot of the same blank you just posted?

No, I'm sorry I do not.

Personally, I think this is wrong. By the end of this thread the whole world will know how to do this design. :frown: Far too soon to ruin someones hard work.
Although the 360 HB was the item in question, I think the discussion was about sharing.

I reckon we should allow the mystery to run it's natural coarse.

Steven, you may be right. But, this is not meant to be something that is wrong. This is just a little something to help people to get thinking. This is not meant to be an answer forum and I for one would be awfully Pissed Off if someone used it as such!!! Clearly these are people that are already considering the possibilities, perhaps they can help one another out and if nothing else, hopefully learn some cool new stuff in the process.

Try it. Or sketch it in 3 dimensions. Then, I think, you will see the hurdle(s).

I'm all for people sharing information, and I've had people walk me through a lot of different aspects of pen turning and finishing, but at some point you have to log off and go to your shop and try it. Personally, I hope this doesn't turn into a tutorial (at least not yet) because the project really challenges your ability to think through the design process.

Exactly the point!!!!! This is not meant to give the answer but to foster creativity! Then wild pen animals can go run rampant in their shops being proud of what THEY were able to come up with!!!

Do you have a U-tube of that?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! LOL ED, you crack me up! That is too funny!!!

Just remenmber, if you think you have the answer, don't post it here, this is for everyone to work on, not for one person to figure it out and everyone else nod there heads and run to the shop. I don't think that is why this thread was started.

Thank you Neil! Very well said!!! Don't blow it for everybody!!! If you think you are on to something run out to the shop and try it! If you figured it out, bow out of the conversation and go strut like a Rooster at what you have done!!!! Just remember, wanting the answer is half the fun, how a person got that answer could totally make or break the deal for them!!!!!

I KNOW how to DO that!!!!

Can I have some when you are done ED! Sounds alot easier than how I do it!

I think it would have taken all the fun out of it if I went down with a printout of step by step instructions, kinda like figuring out the rubik's cube!

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GouletPens]

Bruce lives about 20 minutes from me....maybe I should go knocking on his door....:wink:

 

[ed4copies]

Fastest method?

Bruce lives about 20 minutes from me....maybe I should go knocking on his door....:wink:

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