the new cheap crapola grade pen lines bother me

[Mikey]

Just replying to last:

On my first page, someone mentioned that you will pay for the quality you get. In speaking with someone yesterday who works for a company that we all buy from (even other retailers) I was told that these copies and other products coming out now look similar and have the same plating, but that the prep that goes into the product before the plating has a lot to do with how well the plating stands up. Applying a nickel base before the platinum plating yields a longer lasting finish. Maybe some of these companies are skipping a step for cost savings? Maybe they are cleaning parts with different chemicals that don't work as well? Don't know for sure, but it's something to think about.

 

[GBusardo]

I am trying to get a grip on the whole situation in my mind, not an easy thing to do [B)]
A lot of people seem to be having problems with different plating and the cost of the platings, me included. The price of the metal would have to play a very minor roll in the cost. Just as an example, in one catalog, CS I think, a copper kit is 2 dollars more than a gold kit. Now, Copper sells for about 3.50 a pound and gold sells for 700? dollars an ounce, maybe. Quite a difference!! Also, copper would probably wear about the same as gold, I would think. What it comes down to is that we need more education from the ALL the suppliers on why the cost differential. It maybe to the advantage of the people who sell a TN kit for the same price as gold to keep us in the dark on why their kit is so much cheaper. On the other hand, it might be to their advantage to tell us the process of their kit is the same as CS or PSI's. If we got the education, we could pick which kits suits our needs. I am believing that just because the catalog says its rhodium, gold, or whatever, it is not giving the whole story.
We need to be educated, will we get it?

 

[Daniel]

Forgive me now for the stir this may cause.
I got offered to go in on a group buy the other day. we can buy slimline kits for .78 ea. and make pens all day long and sell them for $10 bucks ea.
anyone interested? (retorical question)
although there would not be many in this group that would be interested in this. sadly there are plenty of others out there that are. Cheap kits will always be made as long as people will buy them.
I'm not so sure that the plating material has as much to do with the price of a kit as we might think. it is important to us and that may be blinding us a bit to other factors that effect kit cost. demand being one of those. that could explaine the copper versus gold price.

 

[bitshird]

Daniel,
I agree the cost of the metal used in the plating has little to do with the problems that are being discussed on this thread and several others, the pitting that was shown on one pen is reminiscent of what I would get if the electro-cleaning or ultrasonic bath wasn't done completely, that type of pitting is just from quality control in the plating shop/factory, I know because I'VE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM I used to do a lot of jewelry repair and re-plating. The reason that the cost keeps dropping is competition and in that respect we all loose.
The first time I saw a hand made pen was at a flea market in Canton Texas, The guy was turning right there and had a line waiting to buy, he was using a Sherline lathe and worked from daybreak to sunset and was getting 20.00 a pen, this was about 20 years ago
convert that to today’s dollar.
So now I made a pretty bad mistake, I'm getting retired the end of march, so I started turning pens, OK I admit I had no Idea what I was buying, but I didn't want to drop a lot of money on the kits to basically practice on, I bought 20 slim lines for about a buck sixty five and went to work, Well my first pen went dry a couple days ago, (let's not rehash that!!!) but I asked in good faith, and really got an earful from the 100.00 fountain pen guys.
I agree we need to be educated, when ever a car manufacturer comes out with the be all end all revision we get shown it's advantages, same with software of vitamins or Medicines then brand W says NO that's bad. But at least there is some dialogue so we have some Idea what to look for or what we are up aginst
I think it's wonderful that some of the suppliers will replace the lousy plated parts, but what do our customers think, after all they didn't buy from supplier X they bought from You and Me and the other guy, we are the ones with the egg on our face, but why would any one buy a product that the company doesn't guarantee at all, what does that say about that company, OK some of our stuff is OK but some is Crap. where is this line drawn or is it a partially obscured line, like "well some of the parts are OK but some ain't." I don't think I'll do business with them at all. JMHO
Ken Ferrell

PS. For gods sake don’t say any thing about the refills[}][}][:0]

 

[cdcarter]

Problem, as I see it, is that you can't tell what a kit is by looking at it. Only way I can tell is by reading the label the baggie. How do I know it's correct? I make a pen, I sell it. If it's a $3 kit (that I paid $6 for), the pen is probably long since out of my sight before it goes south. Most are given as gifts. The recipient isn't going to complain to the giver, so it'll never come back to me.

So I think the cause of our discomfort is the knowledge that there's no real control on the cheap stuff. I pay for TG, and trust that I'm getting it. I can tell customers the difference, but they glaze over, because they aren't comparison shopping anyway.

So why pay the premium? I think it comes down to self respect. I do it because I want to give people a quality pen. What others do is none of my business. The money is nice, but it's mad money. I can live without it. I do pens because I enjoy doing them. Making junk takes the joy out of it, so why bother?

 

[GBusardo]

Originally posted by cdcarter

So why pay the premium? I think it comes down to self respect. I do it because I want to give people a quality pen. What others do is none of my business. The money is nice, but it's mad money. I can live without it. I do pens because I enjoy doing them. Making junk takes the joy out of it, so why bother?

The problem for me is that how do you know you are making junk? A supplier sells a Rhodium Cigar for 3.50 and another sells one for 6.50, is there a difference?

 

[ed4copies]

yep, Three bucks, your cost!

That's the extent of what you KNOW, you can speculate about anything else.

 

[wolftat]

I can buy gold or chrome cigars for $1.85 each retail($.85 wholesale if I order 2000) if I wanted to. I think I will stick with Arizona.At least when I call I can understand him and get reliable information. You have to decide for yourselves who you can trust or you will get 50 different opinions from 50 different people.

 

[airrat]

I use a 24k gold cigar for my daily use. Actually a couple of different ones. They are both almost a year old and still look great for the finish. Dropping them on their nibs is a different story. I don't sell that many of them with the 24k plating but I do some for people that want to use them at work (in a harsh environment). I talk to these guys daily and none of the plating on those has wore off either.

On the other had I made myself a couple slimlines and they wore off in a week. Those ended up in a drawer and now I just use the cigars.

Not sure why the difference in the 2 kits .

 

[gwilki]

This is a very interesting thread. I have a question for the jewellers and ex-jewellers who have already provided a lot of good information. I am wondering if the finishes that we are using can have a prolonged effect on the plating. For example, is CA off-gassing after we've pressed the pen, and the gas affecting the plating? The same may hold true for lacquer or friction polishes. When we hear that some people have great luck with kits that others refuse to use, I would think that there must be an external problem. It may well be body chemistry. I'm just curious about other possible causes.

 

[loglugger]

24K Slimline pens are all lumped into one, instead of A company slimline, B company and so on. I have used and have people useing PSI 24K slimeline kits for over 3 years and with no wear to speak of. Has anyone else kept track of 24K from the different companys.
Bob

 

[Daniel]

As for CA off gasing and the effects on the plating. I can tell you for sure do not let uncured CA any where near platinum / Rhodium. it will look like aluminum when it is done. I have adopted the thinking that any CA needs time to gas out before it goes near any plated parts.

 

[skiprat]

We could of course flood the big suppliers with questions or invite them to speak here.[}]

If we just asked the simple question; YOU charge $6 for that kit, THEY charge £3, please say why your pen is more expensive. How is your plating better than theirs? Let them fight it out, then vote with your feet.

I think you could get as much knowledge from the replies as you could from the lack of them.

The real issue, I think, is just how much are you (we) prepared to pay for a kit with an everlasting finish. Would you be happy to sell one 'high-end-everlasting-finish' a week for say $300 or 30 cheap slims for $10 each?
If you would rather go the high end route, then buy a decent metal lathe, make your own custom kits and then get them plated yourself.
I will use up all my 'bought' kits soon, thereafter ALL of my pens will be made from A4 grade Stainless Steel. Once I can make a decent clip ( consistantly ) I'm going to start selling.
If you don't want to compete with the rubbish being sold that has been talked about, then don't.

If I had half the skills that some of you guys do, with wood and wood finishes, then I know I could make a killing with custom pens.
I'm afraid that the fact that your 'fit and finish' while infinitely better in OUR eyes, than the rubbish being sold, just isn't enough to guarantee that sale anymore.[]

 

[CrazyBear]

I find that you pay more for the 'Name'.

On a slghtly different product.

I once bought two jackets for winter wear. one was a $400 'Berghausse' outer skin and fleece lining. The other was a cheap $60 'Regatta'outer skin and fleece lining. Guess which one lasted the longest by far. It was also the warmest( It wasnt the Berghausse)

So the price of the item doesnt mean to say that it is going to be the best quality. it is simply an indication of how much money that company has spent advertising their product and how much they have 'convinced' you to pay

 

[wolftat]

I have just received an email from the company in china that has the very low priced kits and.........they claim to be the supplier for PSI and Woodturningz. Now lets figure out what is going on with the pricing and quality. This just seems to be a profitable business and someone has to do it. I was quoted a retail price of $1.85 for black titanium (or any other finish) cigar kits. Anyone want to go in on a group buy? We only have to hit a $5000 minimum. I'm going to keep buying from my suppliers in the USA for now.

 

[bitshird]

Originally posted by gwilki
<br />This is a very interesting thread. I have a question for the jewellers and ex-jewellers who have already provided a lot of good information. I am wondering if the finishes that we are using can have a prolonged effect on the plating. For example, is CA off-gassing after we've pressed the pen, and the gas affecting the plating?

I would imagine that CA off gassing would have an effect on most precious metal plating,
I used to use a technique called 'Cyanide Bombing' when working on gold and silver castings that had areas that were not accessible to polishing brushes , the process dissolved the impurities on the very surface layer of the piece, modern practice does not advocate this procedure any longer because it was and still is
[xx(] EXTREEMLY DANGEROUS [xx(]it also involved adding Technical grade Hydrogen Peroxide to the Cyanide egg , but the Hydrogen Peroxide was just as a catalyst.
Also bear in mind that until about 20 years ago nearly all plating solutions were Cyanide based, so there would also prove a harmful link to CA off gassing and degradation of plated surfaces as the Cyanide was able to keep the dissolved solids of the metal in suspension, []
Ken Ferrell

 

[jrc]

Bad Kits. I got 100 kits the other day and when ordering I ask where they were from, china he said yes. I ask if he had any others, he said no. So it was to late to shop around so I got them. The nib where it meets the wood is to large. Size should be .330 but all of them were .336
I think my days are numbered making slimlines and comfort kits if all you can get is kits like this from china.
I should watch what I saying about china because in twenty years china will be the richest and most powerful country in the world and they might come after me.
If we keep buying these cheapo kits china then the people making the better ones will stop making them and the cheapo kit from chine will get worse and worse. I do not know about you but I can not feel very good selling pens made from these kits.

 

[Stacker]

Originally posted by jrc
<br />Bad Kits. I got 100 kits the other day and when ordering I ask where they were from, china he said yes. I ask if he had any others, he said no. So it was to late to shop around so I got them. The nib where it meets the wood is to large. Size should be .330 but all of them were .336
I think my days are numbered making slimlines and comfort kits if all you can get is kits like this from china.
I should watch what I saying about china because in twenty years china will be the richest and most powerful country in the world and they might come after me.
If we keep buying these cheapo kits china then the people making the better ones will stop making them and the cheapo kit from chine will get worse and worse. I do not know about you but I can not feel very good selling pens made from these kits.

<b></b>
I suppose that there could be some bad kits from China,perhaps due to a bad mould or someone having a bad day. I for one have bought numerous kits,well over 500 from Berea and have found some problems also. For one the nib on the cigar pens,the pen works fine right up until the customer takes delivery then it is sent back to me because the refill will not retract. I replace the nib and everything works fine. Soft metal who knows.
I have on hand about 4750 pen kits from China,soon enough my website will be ready and I will be the next major Canadian supplier. I tried to get my kits from what is listed as G.E. products in Taiwan but was only met with a phone call from some bigwig at Berea(don't remember his name,John perhaps)that told me they didn't need any more dealers. He also told me not to buy kits from China because they are now what Berea was 10 years ago. I told him of my plan to buy from China no matter what he said. That being said, I have yet to see any plating problems with ANY of the kits I have used or sold.
Note: Don't worry Ed, if I can get majestics and emperors at a reasonable cost I will definitely pass the savings on to you.

FYI,
I have bought kits from PSI,something called a traditional Fountain pen and I have yet to see it in the Chinese manufacturers catalogue. I doubt they make them only special order for PSI,obviously they are not getting them from this manufacturer.

Who knows maybe you work for the other guys.

 

[wolftat]

Stacker, was that remark going my way?

 

[MArruda]

Okay... I'magonna get flamed.
I suppose I'm what you would all consider a bottom feeder loser. I just started turning pens and want to try to use it to augment my regular woodworking business. As such, I just bought a bunch of funline kits from Augum's Pen Works. I needed to try to ge tin to it with the lowest cash outlay possible, but my plan is to upgrade kits and start selling other pens when business starts going somewhere. I'm currently only doing slimlines, to sell for $25 a piece. I use purpleheart, redheart, zebra, bocote, curly maple, cherry, walnut, poplar and mahogany for now, some ebony and other woods... just depends on what I find or have as off cuts. I use either bare wood with a carnauba wax, renwax, or CA, depending on the wood and how it wants to be finished. We all have to start somewhere.

On a side note, I compared the funline 24k, augum's 24k and a 24k my dad got from rockler. What's kinda funny is that the funline had the best finish of them all. I don't know if the plating is a few microns thinner, but it was buffed out better nad had a much better sheen and feel than the other two.

-Michael

 

[wudnhed]

I don't see any reason you would get flamed and I sure don't consider someone a bottom feeder because they're using an inexpensive kit. People have different taste and people have different ideas on how to do things. Like you said, "we all have to start somewhere."

 

[wolftat]

I have also bought slimlines from Woodturningz and have had good luck with them. I just want to know who in America actually makes pen kits and not just rebagging foreign stuff. I'm not trying to knock anyones stuff, but I am a Marine and I want to support my country in more ways than by going back to Iraq again and sweating my *** off. I think I need to just retire and relax, someone tell congress to chill out and stop picking fights so I can get some rest already.

 

[DCBluesman]

Currently there are no U.S. manufacturers of pen kits.

 

[Stacker]

Originally posted by wolftat
<br />Stacker, was that remark going my way?

No,no offence intended. I apologize if I did. Just wanted to get my 2 cents in.

 

[wolftat]

Stacker,
No problem, I am just a little sensitive due to my job and the up coming trip.
I think this is just getting us all a little too worked up. We all need to realize that the problem is basically the same as the fuel problems. Maybe we need to accept the fact that if we had thought of buying direct and reselling for a nice profit ,we would. It is the American way after all, free enterprise. I am going to keep buying from Arizona, Woodturningz, and Woodnwhimsie. These are the folks that have been taking care of ME and keeping my customers happy, after all, isn't that what it is all about anyways. I started turning pens for fun and relaxation and I am still doing it for fun and relaxation, and I will continue to do it for those reasons. Cheap kits or expensive kits are all trash when you run them over with a truck anyways.[]

 

[goodwood]

Boy you folks surely use some descriptions of different companies and their products with abandon. PSI taught me how to make a pen with a personal free class in Phila and I have been loyal to them since. I really was tempted by the above posts and bought some 10's from another top grade company. They came their nice they also are not as bright as PSI and since they are of lower luster to begin with the wear problem is negligible. I've never seen one of PSI's that lost it's plating
including mine and the family. If their appearance at manufacture is not of equal luster why such bad mouthing. Harry

 

[its_virgil]

Which kits are cheaper looking; which platings are better looking; which mechanisms are better; which kits I like and which kits someone else likes; which platings are shinner than others. We all have our personal preferences and opinions. What one person really likes others think is the worst of all. In the end we all make what we like or what sells for us....I've never stopped making a particular kit nor started making some other kit or stopped buying from one company and started buying from another because of others opinions. I try most kits and purchase from all of the pen suppliers and make my own decisions. Life is too short to let the choice of pen kits upset me. Oh well, I'll shut up now. Your're welcome.
Do a good turn daily!
Don