That final .01"

[Xander]

Hi. Tried out my new Woodchuck Pen Pro today. Nice.

I'm still new at turning and pens, just finished my 10th pen and man is it NICE. (more on that in SOYP). I'm still using bushings and mandrel and probably will for a while, except for applying CA to wood blanks (if I can get delrin finishing bushings). I've always been very careful, methodical, and generally a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things mechanical. In the past I've spent countless years buidling cars, restoring military jet aircraft for museum, generally doing stuff with my hands ... but BIG things where close enough is usually good enough, nothing small like a pen.

Anyway, it seems that I'm taking a very long time to turn a pen. I won't go into the hour it takes to drill the blank, or paint, glue, ... etc.
I guess I can 'rough' out a blank in a reasonable time but then I spend an hour getting the last 0.01". It's ... turn close to bushings, measure, turn more, measure, turn, measure, measure again, turn just the slightest hair, measure.... still too big, turn, measure.... not quite, turn, measure... still not there.... just a whisker off, measure.... AAARRGGGGGGG.

How can you tell how much to take off for that elusive 0.01"? Is this something that will come with experience? I'm I being too critical?

This last pen turn out magnificent, all the previous efforts were pretty good too. I think I might be getting "better' or at least more demanding of myself.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

For me I do worry about the .01 just not the .001 I don't think there is an easy way. Just turn and measure. I find a skew works wonders for taking off those little bits without making a mess.

 

[Lucky2]

Hi. Tried out my new Woodchuck Pen Pro today. Nice.


This last pen turn out magnificent, all the previous efforts were pretty good too. I think I might be getting "better' or at least more demanding of myself.

How will we ever know how magnificent it looks, if you don't post a picture of it?
Len

 

[Xander]

Hi. Tried out my new Woodchuck Pen Pro today. Nice.


This last pen turn out magnificent, all the previous efforts were pretty good too. I think I might be getting "better' or at least more demanding of myself.

How will we ever know how magnificent it looks, if you don't post a picture of it?
Len

...just finished my 10th pen and man is it NICE. (more on that in SOYP).

Look in SOYP "Green Lantern"

 

[Lucky2]

Hi. Tried out my new Woodchuck Pen Pro today. Nice.


This last pen turn out magnificent, all the previous efforts were pretty good too. I think I might be getting "better' or at least more demanding of myself.

How will we ever know how magnificent it looks, if you don't post a picture of it?
Len

...just finished my 10th pen and man is it NICE. (more on that in SOYP).

Look in SOYP "Green Lantern"

Sorry, I missed the SOYP abbreviation, my mistake. But don't mind me, I tend to stick my foot in my mouth more often then not lately. And I already checked out the "Green Lantern", it looks fantastic.
Len

 

[Xander]

Hi. Tried out my new Woodchuck Pen Pro today. Nice.


This last pen turn out magnificent, all the previous efforts were pretty good too. I think I might be getting "better' or at least more demanding of myself.

How will we ever know how magnificent it looks, if you don't post a picture of it?
Len

...just finished my 10th pen and man is it NICE. (more on that in SOYP).

Look in SOYP "Green Lantern"

Sorry, I missed the SOYP abbreviation, my mistake. But don't mind me, I tend to stick my foot in my mouth more often then not lately. And I already checked out the "Green Lantern", it looks fantastic.
Len

No problem. My foot spends more time where it shouldn't aught to be then on the floor :wink:
Thanks for the positive comment on the pen.

 

[GrantH]

I urge you to at least try without a bushing set and mandrel. Turning between centers allows for MUCH quicker turns and MUCH nicer fit in my opinion.

 

[Lenny]

Perhaps your asking the wrong question.:wink:

How about ... How much undersized do I turn it so that, after applying 20 coats of CA finish and then sanding with all the grits of MM, I will end up at exactly X.XXX?

 

[Xander]

Perhaps your asking the wrong question.:wink:

How about ... How much undersized do I turn it so that, after applying 20 coats of CA finish and then sanding with all the grits of MM, I will end up at exactly X.XXX?

That part is easy. It's WAY easier to sand down to size after CA. I do that for wood blanks. And if I go under size.... just add an extra coat of CA.

What is the issue is... on acrylics which do not have CA to build up a finish.... I'm spending a very long time making SURE I DON'T GO UNDERSIZE, but at the same time not being OVERSIZE either. Got to get it EXACTLY right.

With wood and CA, you can be off by "a lot" and still finish right on the money.

 

[leehljp]

What is the issue is... on acrylics which do not have CA to build up a finish.... I'm spending a very long time making SURE I DON'T GO UNDERSIZE, but at the same time not being OVERSIZE either. Got to get it EXACTLY right.

With wood and CA, you can be off by "a lot" and still finish right on the money.

Here is where it is for me - I don't put all my eggs in one basket this time of year. :wink: :biggrin: . . . Meaning, there is no "one" tool that I use to turn pens. I have a round end scraper, scraper with an angled end and two WoodChuck Pros. I don't know exactly what it is except for "feel" for different steps.

I use the Woodchuck Pro to turn down to round and then down to close to size. The Woodchuck does well and makes smooth cuts, but I still use my home made angled scraper for the final turnings. I keep a .1micron sanding pad next to the lathe and keep my special chisel S H A R P just for situations that you described. I firmly believe that the WCPro will do this too, but I just have to get the "feel" for the new tools. I just got mine (both of them) back in February and am just now getting used to them.

The real problem is that a good tool takes a little time to get the proper "feel". It is sharp and cuts well and smooth, but it is the "feel" that comes from experience that allows the finesse cuts.

 

[1080Wayne]

Xander

Don`t think there is anything in the 10 commandments of pen turning that says you shall not build up an overturned acrylic pen with CA .

 

[Xander]

Xander

Don`t think there is anything in the 10 commandments of pen turning that says you shall not build up an overturned acrylic pen with CA .

Perhaps not, but I'm of the mind that it is better to do things right and not have to fix errors. CA on acrylic is not going to have the same "finish" as a correctly turned and polished pen. Some people on this forum seem to do 'whatever' to complete a pen with little or no regard to quality. As an example, there is a thread somewhere in which someone made a comment about the all too frequent use of "OOPS bands" and the continual "nice save" comments. To me, if you have to 'save' a pen you are not taking the care to produce quality.

Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I take more care (pride) in what I produce, but so far I have not had any "oops", with the exception of a drip on a CA finish which was corrected with a sand and re-apply. Yes, I have not made near as many pens as most people here but at the same time, I have a lot less experience and practice. When I've made 100 pens I might have a few failures but it won't be due to sloppy work.

 

[bensoelberg]

That part is easy. It's WAY easier to sand down to size after CA. I do that for wood blanks. And if I go under size.... just add an extra coat of CA.

What is the issue is... on acrylics which do not have CA to build up a finish.... I'm spending a very long time making SURE I DON'T GO UNDERSIZE, but at the same time not being OVERSIZE either. Got to get it EXACTLY right.

With wood and CA, you can be off by "a lot" and still finish right on the money.

This statement leads me to believe that you probably do turn to just undersized on a wood blank, then build back up to oversize with CA and sand back down to perfect. How much oversize are you after you've applied your CA? Turn to slightly more than that on acrylics then pretend like you've just finished putting on CA and sand to perfect. For me, I turn until I'm between .03-.015 over the finished size, then I usually start sanding with 240 grit. Once the blank has been sanded, I'm between .015-.007 over. I sand with 320, and 400. At that point I'm usually about .002 over. After my micromesh, I'm pretty dang close to perfect. If my calipers still say I'm a thou over or under, my fingers can't tell.

 

[InvisibleMan]

I set my calipers to .25mm larger than final size and turn until they just fit over the blank. Then sand/mm, rounding the corners over just slightly as I go - not too much or it will leave too large of a gap between the blank and the fittings.

When assembled, there is a slight rounded off curve where the blank meets the fittings, but it looks like it was meant to be that way, because it was. Gives a little room for error, looks good, feels good, and works every time for me.

 

[PenMan1]

The final .0001 is the difference between pen turners and pen makers. It's not the tool that makes the difference. It is a process that comes differently to everyone and it's called experience.

The key is NOT to even TRY to rush the final fit and finish process. In fact, this is the point when I measure, adjust, measure again, adjust some more. After a few thousand pens you'll have your process defined, but I'm not sure you can speed up without sacrificing quality.

My "tool" of choice for the final .001 is 600 grit Abranet, followed by 9 grits of Micro Mesh, 3 polish coats and a buffer with wax.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[Xander]

The final .0001 is the difference between pen turners and pen makers. It's not the tool that makes the difference. It is a process that comes differently to everyone and it's called experience.

The key is NOT to even TRY to rush the final fit and finish process. In fact, this is the point when I measure, adjust, measure again, adjust some more. After a few thousand pens you'll have your process defined, but I'm not sure you can speed up without sacrificing quality.

My "tool" of choice for the final .001 is 600 grit Abranet, followed by 9 grits of Micro Mesh, 3 polish coats and a buffer with wax.

Respectfully submitted.

Yeah, I get that. I'm not rushing. If I need 3 days, I take 3 days. It's just that I've read some people claim to take 30 - 45 minutes or less to make a pen. I can't see how that is possible. Like I said, I take an hour just to drill the blank. Anyway, I'm sure with time and experience I'll be able to get closer to final size without so much stopping to check. And I'll know how much to remove for .xx" or when to start sanding.

Right now though, it's a good thing I'm not selling. I'd hate to charge for 6 hours of my time. :biggrin:

 

[Andrew_K99]

... Right now though, it's a good thing I'm not selling. I'd hate to charge for 6 hours of my time. :biggrin:

Charging for the 6 hours isn't a bad thing ... the fact that you might only make a couple bucks an hour might sting though :tongue:.

 

[brownsfn2]

Yeah, I get that. I'm not rushing. If I need 3 days, I take 3 days. It's just that I've read some people claim to take 30 - 45 minutes or less to make a pen. I can't see how that is possible. Like I said, I take an hour just to drill the blank. Anyway, I'm sure with time and experience I'll be able to get closer to final size without so much stopping to check. And I'll know how much to remove for .xx" or when to start sanding.

Right now though, it's a good thing I'm not selling. I'd hate to charge for 6 hours of my time. :biggrin:

In just my personal experience I have made a pen in as little as 45 min for an acrylic and as long as 2 days for one where I let the CA cure overnight.

The 45 min pen was not my favorite as far as quality, was not relaxing to make, and was just not fun. Since the sole purpose of my hobby is to relax, reduce stress, and have fun I decided it is not worth rushing the process.

I think that for me it is much more fun for me to make one in a few hours as opposed to rushing through it. I find that the quality gets better when I take about 2 hours as opposed to 45 min. So I often stop the lathe, re-measure, analyze, examine closely, etc. etc.

I guess my point is that in my experience the time to finish should not concern you too much unless this is your job and you need to do volume because you are charging low prices counting on volume. If this is a hobby then take time and have fun.

I am in my 40's so I look at it like I have at least 25 to 30 years to perfect my retirement hobby.

 

[Andrew_K99]

The time it takes you to make a pen has a lot to do with your shop set up. Those making a lot of pens have all their tools ready to go at all times. And they're probably make 5-10 of the same pens at the same time which speeds things up greatly.

Don't get too focused on the time it takes, just make the best pen you can!

AK

 

[Shock me]

I spend an hour getting the last 0.01". It's ... turn close to bushings, measure, turn more, measure, turn, measure, measure again, turn just the slightest hair, measure.... still too big, turn, measure.... not quite, turn, measure... still not there.... just a whisker off, measure.... AAARRGGGGGGG.

How can you tell how much to take off for that elusive 0.01"? Is this something that will come with experience? I'm I being too critical?

To your experience question, the answer is "yes". With experience, you will come to learn how to better judge that you have removed .01" of material. You will develop a feel for how many "whiskers" you must shave off to get there and what that whisker pile looks like. You will not have to measure nearly so often because you will know intuitively that you are not there yet. You will occasionally overshoot and need to build thickness back with CA, I agree with those who advise against doing this intentionally.

As for too critical? No, far from it. In a pen, .01" is huge. I prefer to turn a Sierra style pen with a slight bulge of 0.56" at its maximum about one third of the way from the cap end. If you hand me one of my pens that's off by .01" at the bulge, I'll know it immediately and I will have rejected the pen from sale. At the bushings, it's REALLY huge, I agree with those who said that you should be aiming for a tolerance of .001" (and I hope Andy's .0001" is a typo, as I'm truly not worthy to stand in the presence of one who can achieve a tolerance of 2 1/2 microns...).