Statesman like pen kit

[ed4copies]

Our suppliers "parrot back" what their "manufacturers" tell them. I'm sure you have also seen the sample nibs, Roy--do they avoid lying on the imprint? No!

So, why do we assume their claims of plating are accurate? Do I trust one over the other? Yes. But that is from a 15 year experience with the owner of my supplier---so I have a personal "comfort level" with the "top man", who is, most likely, the ONLY person who knows what the "spec" is and how it is ratified.

As I have said, you are free to say whatever you wish. For ME, if it sounds "too good to be true", it usually is.

 

[patmurris]

Very interesting discussion, somewhat off topic, but certainly related. Although i haven't been turning pens for long and haven't sold any yet, i feel like dropping my two cents anyway.

Regarding platings, my understanding is that it is the cheap way of making a metallic object look rich without the associated cost of using plain rare and expensive metals, and one of the expected quality is the thickness which is directly related to lasting. I would be very interested in a jeweler opinion on the various pen kit parts since plating is common in that trade.

One other thought that comes to mind and does apply to about everything is "most of the time you get what you pay for". I know there are exceptions, but i tend to think it is a good rule of thumb when buying stuff. You are very likely to get low quality if it's cheap and likely to get better quality if you pay more. That's another way of saying "if it's to good to be true, then it's likely the case". However, i also tend to avoid heavily advertised 'brands' where their products price include a good portion of the advertising cost - which in some instances is the main portion, but i wouldn't think that applies to the pen turning trade.

Finally, "you can fool some people sometime, but you can't fool all the people all the time" - Bob. If our suppliers and manufacturers where stretching the truth to the point of lying, we would know about it by now and they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Smitty37]

I have grave concerns about all the claims made by our suppliers (my own included).

This is one reason why:
Q. What does "rhodium" have to do with white gold jewelry? A. Rhodium is also a precious metal. In fact, it's about ten times costlier than gold! ...

Making it $15000 per ounce, currently.

You BELIEVE it is in our pens, in any meaningful amount??

I am not sure where your information came from Ed but the spot price today per ounce on Rhodium was $1975; gold was $1531; and Platinum was $1735. (Makes one wonder why some pen kit providers call Rhodium Platinum. My supplier marked my Rhodium kits Platinum -- they were instructed to label them and they call it platinum but when I questioned them about it they told me it is Rhodium.

 

[Smitty37]

Trust me Ed

You are free to believe whatever you want. The articles I read indicate that the price swings wildly from 5 to 25 times the price of gold.

The price of titanium--to make TiGold does not seem to encounter huge swings, but our suppliers have nearly doubled the price of those kits "due to cost increases". So, if you think they "absorbed" a 25x markup on rhodium---you are more gullible than I.

As I said, I believed "Iridiium and Germany"--fool me once, shame on you................

Believe what you wish. We have both available to provide the penmaker the choice---

Trust me on this ED the Spot price of Rhodium is an accurate statement of what it is selling for right now...or at the market close. It is currently running about 30% above gold. (it was the last time I checked it also). I have not followed it long enough to know much about the "swings" in price or what might trigger them.

 

[Smitty37]

Three

I don't think rhodium is $15,000 and ounce, or $10,000. It was about $10,000 several years ago, but now I think it's between one and two. In any case, platings are very thin, measured in microns. A Troy ounce is a lot of metal compared to a thin plating on a small pen part. Also, some of the old Gillette razors were plated in Rhodium, so there's no reason not to believe that our pen parts are as well...

Almost exactly 3 years ago in July of 2008 it peaked at around 10,000/ounce dropped like a stone and has been between about $1500 and $3000 since. There has NOT been any recent major increase
in price. In fact it is almost exactly what it was a year ago and just a little higher (maybe 10%) higher than it was 2 years ago. There would be no upward pressure on using Rhodium for at least the last 2 1/2 years.

 

[Smitty37]

You are free to believe whatever you want. The articles I read indicate that the price swings wildly from 5 to 25 times the price of gold.

The price of titanium--to make TiGold does not seem to encounter huge swings, but our suppliers have nearly doubled the price of those kits "due to cost increases". So, if you think they "absorbed" a 25x markup on rhodium---you are more gullible than I.

As I said, I believed "Iridiium and Germany"--fool me once, shame on you................

Believe what you wish. We have both available to provide the penmaker the choice---

I'm not sure the cost increases relate to the cost of Titanium. Pen kits are either thin filmed or coated (not plated) with Titanium Nitride using a PVD coating method usually over Chrome or Nickel. It seems to me (I am still checking on this) that there is an additional very expensive step in getting a TI finish. I'll share what I find out.

 

[IPD_Mr]

A statement was made that we have no way to validate the information that is out there on the Internet. I believe that to be true and keep this in mind when presenting this. This is from eBullionGuide.com and I have no idea if they are legit or an authority, but this is the chart that they provide to show the historical price of Rhodium. If this is in fact accurate, then the price only peaked at $10k for a short period. So over the past almost 20 years the price was only radically high for a three year period. Maybe this is false data and someone could provide something more accurate.

I found several other historical records of price from other websites that seem to support the first chart.

 

[Smitty37]

Thick not necessarily better

In the case of Titanium Nitride coating, I understand that thicker is not necessarily better and that it can be applied too thick and become brittle and chip. That is just from some reading about the material and the coating process. In the case of Titanium Nitride they do not call it plating because the material is actually a ceramic rather than a metal and the way it adhears to the subplate is different than metalic plating which is one of the things that give it it's wear properties.

 

[Smitty37]

Good info

A statement was made that we have no way to validate the information that is out there on the Internet. I believe that to be true and keep this in mind when presenting this. This is from eBullionGuide.com and I have no idea if they are legit or an authority, but this is the chart that they provide to show the historical price of Rhodium. If this is in fact accurate, then the price only peaked at $10k for a short period. So over the past almost 20 years the price was only radically high for a three year period. Maybe this is false data and someone could provide something more accurate.


I found several other historical records of price from other websites that seem to support the first chart.

Mike, that kind of historical data is trustworthy. And you can probably verify it in the Wall Street Journal. There are dozens of places where you can see data like that on any commodity traded on a US commodity exchange, just like you can find it for any stock traded on the NY stock exchange.

I saw virtually the same charts at another site execpt they were a little more detailed and only went back 5 years....

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

A statement was made that we have no way to validate the information that is out there on the Internet. I believe that to be true and keep this in mind when presenting this. This is from eBullionGuide.com and I have no idea if they are legit or an authority, but this is the chart that they provide to show the historical price of Rhodium. If this is in fact accurate, then the price only peaked at $10k for a short period. So over the past almost 20 years the price was only radically high for a three year period. Maybe this is false data and someone could provide something more accurate.


I found several other historical records of price from other websites that seem to support the first chart.

Mike, that kind of historical data is trustworthy. And you can probably verify it in the Wall Street Journal. There are dozens of places where you can see data like that on any commodity traded on a US commodity exchange, just like you can find it for any stock traded on the NY stock exchange.

I saw virtually the same charts at another site execpt they were a little more detailed and only went back 5 years....

I think this might be the chart Smitty's thinking of, notice the sharp drop in 45 days from it's 5 year high. http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1246519#poststop look at post #22 my second post in this thread

 

[Smitty37]

Yes

A statement was made that we have no way to validate the information that is out there on the Internet. I believe that to be true and keep this in mind when presenting this. This is from eBullionGuide.com and I have no idea if they are legit or an authority, but this is the chart that they provide to show the historical price of Rhodium. If this is in fact accurate, then the price only peaked at $10k for a short period. So over the past almost 20 years the price was only radically high for a three year period. Maybe this is false data and someone could provide something more accurate.


I found several other historical records of price from other websites that seem to support the first chart.

Mike, that kind of historical data is trustworthy. And you can probably verify it in the Wall Street Journal. There are dozens of places where you can see data like that on any commodity traded on a US commodity exchange, just like you can find it for any stock traded on the NY stock exchange.

I saw virtually the same charts at another site execpt they were a little more detailed and only went back 5 years....

I think this might be the chart Smitty's thinking of, notice the sharp drop in 45 days from it's 5 year high. http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1246519#poststop look at post #22 my second post in this thread

Yes I saw that one too.

Think about this a little now. Rhodium Fancy Slimline kits in MOQ of 2000 kits are priced higher than 24kt gold by just about 30/35% which is right around the difference in the price of the metal. Gold TN is priced a bit less than Rhodium and Black TN is almost the same as Rhodium. TN uses a more expensive application method.

It is puzzling that GM, Copper, Chrome, and Black Chrome are all priced within a few pennies of 24kt gold although the base metal is much cheaper than gold. This tends to make me think the cost of the plating is really controled more by some factor other than the metal.

 

[Smitty37]

Gold TN plating

My supplier tells me: a) items to be coated with Titanium Nitride are first plated with Chrome. b) their process is thin film which provides a very thin layer of Titanium Nitride. That is a common industrial process and I don't believe it has much, if any adverse effect on the wear properties.

 

[Fibonacci]

Think about this a little now. Rhodium Fancy Slimline kits in MOQ of 2000 kits are priced higher than 24kt gold by just about 30/35% which is right around the difference in the price of the metal. Gold TN is priced a bit less than Rhodium and Black TN is almost the same as Rhodium. TN uses a more expensive application method.

It is puzzling that GM, Copper, Chrome, and Black Chrome are all priced within a few pennies of 24kt gold although the base metal is much cheaper than gold. This tends to make me think the cost of the plating is really controled more by some factor other than the metal.

Again, you have to consider that the amount of actual plating material on a given pen is negligible. The real cost is in the labor of plating, and that is consistent for (almost) any electroplated finish.

It gets more expensive when you have to use a fancier method (PVD, etc.). You also get higher prices when there is a perceived value. Take Black Ti vs gunmetal for example. Would anyone claim that GM is superior? No, everyone recognizes that black ti is better, and thus, will pay more for it.