Stabilizing penetration question

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elkhorn

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I'm having a problem with the amount of penetration I'm getting with my stabilization process.

i've done about 25 blanks and have used very little liquid (probably no more than 3 to 4 oz). All the blanks were very dry. Some of the blanks were from Mt. Vernon (walnut and cherry, about 200 years old), some 50 year old pipe briar, and a spoke from a 1929 model T. All were very dry.

My technique is to put the blanks in the chamber separated with 1/8 inch aluminum rod so that the liquid can flow around them. I then run the vacuum pump for approximately two to four hours (until there are no more air bubbles coming out of the blanks). In Salt Lake I'm at an altitude of 4,300 feet and I am pulling the maximum vacuum I can which is about 25 1/2 inches of mercury at this altitude.

I then released the vacuum and let the blanks sit in the stabilizing fluid for twice as long as the time that they were under vacuum. I then take them out, wrap them in aluminum foil and put them in the toaster/broiler oven (about 175 to 190 degrees F for about 1 1/2 hours). When I turn the blanks on the lathe, there is no evidence of any penetration by the stabilizing liquid.

I'd be grateful for any help.

Thank you!
 
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plantman

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My only thought, after many years of furniture and auto restoration, is that old tight grained wood seems to shrink as it ages. It also absorbes materials into the pores and seals them not allowing moisture in. If it hasn't rotted in 100 -200 years it's some dence wood. I have always had trouble getting antique wood to absorb stains or oils. Don't know if that answers your question, but just something I have noticed over the years. Jim S
 

Jim Burr

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What criteria are you using for penetration John...not an argument...just a question. I don't have a functional lid for my Turn-tex chamber anymore, although we are at the same elevation...can't help with a test.
 

elkhorn

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Thanks, Jim & Jim (is that Jim squared?).

My criteria is that when I have purchased "stabilized" blanks in the past (PSI, IAP members), I was able to finish them like an acrylic blank. The blanks that I have stabilized are still like "plain wood" when I turn them. They can't be finished with just micro mesh and polish, but need more.

Thanks again!
 

low_48

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I'd say you are trying to stabilize very hard, dense woods. Not everything is going to need stabilization, and wood like briar burl just isn't going to take on much fluid. Trying to remember, are Model T spokes made from hickory? It's just not a porous wood.
 

plantman

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The only other thing I would try would be to turn to size, finish sand, apply a alcohol ink to try to bring some color back into the wood, and finish with CA. When redoing old furniture, I would use Formbe's Wood Restoration to get some oils back into the woods. There are other products out there to rejuvinate old dull woods also. Jim S
 

Monty

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I know you said the wood was old and ry, but did you check the moisture content before you stabilized? Wood that is dry in the shop still has a residual MC which can be as high as 10-15% when measured with a moisture meter? The MC of blanks for stabilization with CJ should be 0% or as close as possible. IIRC, Curtis dries his blank in an oven at about 120*F over night before he stabilizes. I find that I can dry mine in a microwave oven using several 30 second runs until the MC is 0% when they have cooled.
Also, as has been pointed out by others, hard solid wood and oily wood does not take CJ very well for stabilization. However they may stabilize well with commercial high pressure stabilization.
 

MesquiteMan

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Sounds to me like you may be comparing apples to oranges with your comparison of your blanks with purchased blanks. Were the ones you did the same species of wood as the blanks you have purchased? Remember, each species of wood will stabilize differently due to the density of the wood and how much "empty" space you have in the wood. The more "empty" space, the higher the concentration of resin you will end up with in relation to the amount of wood and the more like acrylic it will work.

That does not mean your dense blanks are not stabilized well or that you did not get penetration. As a matter of fact, if the "empty" space int he wood is virtually 100% filled with resin, it is about as perfectly stabilized as you can get.

Now if you want to have blanks turn more like acrylic, then I suggest you use a wood that is very punky and highly compromised with a lot of "empty" space. This will allow you to get a higher concentration of resin and a higher resin to wood ratio. These blanks will finish more like acrylic. Remember, stabilizing does not magically turn a piece of wood into plastic. The blank still has wood in it and depending on the density, it may have more wood than resin like it appears you are experiencing. Take a punky piece of wood and do the exact same process and you will end up with a finished blank that is 3 parts wood and 1 part resin.
 

ed4copies

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In playing with stabilizing, I did some hard maple. Like you, I didn't think I got great penetration. Dawn suggested I add dye and see what happens.

Very educational---in the same batch, some were dyed through to the center, others were not. I surmise the wood was more dense in the ones that did not dye all the way through. More experimenting is in order!!

FWIW,
Ed
 

MesquiteMan

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See my comments in red below:

I know you said the wood was old and ry, but did you check the moisture content before you stabilized? Wood that is dry in the shop still has a residual MC which can be as high as 10-15% when measured with a moisture meter? The MC of blanks for stabilization with CJ should be 0% or as close as possible. IIRC, Curtis dries his blank in an oven at about 120*F over night before he stabilizes.
I recommend 215° F for 24 hours before stabilizing. The temp needs to be above the boiling point of water to be able to get 100% of the water out of the wood. I do not believe this is his problem, though.

I find that I can dry mine in a microwave oven using several 30 second runs until the MC is 0% when they have cooled.
Also, as has been pointed out by others, hard solid wood and oily wood does not take CJ very well for stabilization. However they may stabilize well with commercial high pressure stabilization.

High pressure is NOT going to do any better than just vacuum, it will just do it quicker. I can get complete penetration in cast iron with just vacuum! As mentioned in my previous post, it all has to do with concentration rather than penetration.
 

MesquiteMan

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You did not mention what resin you are using but if you are using Cactus Juice (or similar), please feel free to give me a call at your convenience to further troubleshoot and discuss your issues. One thing of concern if you are using Cactus Juice is your cure temperature is lower than recommended (200° F).
 

edstreet

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No longer confused....
Try this. ...


[*]First adding any type of dye or any other elements reduces the permeability of the stabilizing fluid and penetration is reduced, more often than not (denser materials is drastically increased). This holds true for any chemical, trace element, natural resin in the wood, etc that is added to the stabilizing candidate before processing, i.e. drying, cutting, shaping.


[*] simply recording the weight of the pre-stabilized block and post-stabilized block for long term reference is a good key indicator of how things are progressing. If your pre and post weights are very close to equal then you have some serious problems on your hands that needs attention.


[*]Having a lower thickness and approaching the wood target area from both sides (small undersized hole in the middle where the tube will be going along with under turned wall thickness) will double your penetration. Less thickness = better penetration; old adage is don't stabilize scrap and trash material that will be removed.


[*]Your nose is a super good indicator as to penetration. Simply smelling like wood when it's cut is a good sign of poor penetration of the resin. Proper stabilized material will yield 100% coverage and not only seal the wood fibers but saturate the wood fibers in it's entirety and result in plastic, not wood smell. If you smell wood then you have unsealed wood, the stronger the wood smell = the less stabilizing you have. Allow it to dry and fully cure for a week or 2 (defumigate) then slice it open and smell while it is being cut and the fresh cut block afterwards. Having any wood smell on a post processed block is instant failure.


[*]Give it the water test, adding water to the polished block will discolor and give the 'wet look' to poor stabilized material; while good proper stabilized materials will not change. The more drastic 'pop' you have the less stabilized results you have.


[*]Perhaps the best all around test is the kitchen scales and a bucket filled with something like DNA or just plain water. Chop the block into small sections, record the weight of the stabilized material while it is DRY. Then submerge the block for a good day or 3 then re-check the weight and record that, allow it to dry briefly (read 1-2 hours or so) then re-check and record the weight, rince and repeat at longer intervals. Proper stabilized material will *NOT* change that much in this test. [However non-filled open areas will still retain fluid if the area is not filled, i.e. voids] The presence of capillary action is a direct indicator of how much 'filling' you will need in the blank down the road.


[*] stain test: Dunk the cut block from above into a bucket of alcohol based stain, let it sit there for a few days then slice the block open in multiple sections/areas and look at dye penetration. Good proper stabilized material will resist penetration in all forms. You will have some due to open structures, i.e. voids, gaps, cracks and the like. After that take the sections that have stain then wash the area and note how much of the stain is removed, this part of the test results in some of the most controversial topics when it comes to stabilizing.
 

MesquiteMan

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My comments in Red below as they relate to at least to using Cactus Juice and Alumilite dyes which I do happen to be the expert on!. I can not say for sure on any others and my comments are not meant to be argumentative at all:

Try this. ...
[*]First adding any type of dye or any other elements reduces the permeability of the stabilizing fluid and penetration is reduced, more often than not (denser materials is drastically increased). This holds true for any chemical, trace element, natural resin in the wood, etc that is added to the stabilizing candidate before processing, i.e. drying, cutting, shaping.

This is certainly the case with any kind of powdered dyes. However, it is NOT the case with Alumilite dyes and Cactus Juice. Alumilite dyes are a 100% homogenous liquid and do NOT affect the penetration of the resin in any way, shape, or form.


[*] simply recording the weight of the pre-stabilized block and post-stabilized block for long term reference is a good key indicator of how things are progressing. If your pre and post weights are very close to equal then you have some serious problems on your hands that needs attention.

See my comments above regarding concentration vs penetration. I can get 100% penetration and virtually full concentration in a piece of ebony but only have a 7% weight increase. Ebony is a dense, hard wood. The denser, harder, heavier the wood is, the less air space there is in the wood and therefore, the less potential for resin uptake. Wood is made up of cellulose, hemicellulose, and lignin. The tighter these components are packed, the heavier and denser the wood is. Cellulose, hemicellulose, and lignin weigh the same volume for volume whether it comes from balsa or ironwood. The difference is the empty space between these components.
If the ebony has all of the empty space filled with cured resin, then it is fully stabilized, even if it only has a 7% increase in weight!


[*]Having a lower thickness and approaching the wood target area from both sides (small undersized hole in the middle where the tube will be going along with under turned wall thickness) will double your penetration. Less thickness = better penetration; old adage is don't stabilize scrap and trash material that will be removed.

100% penetration is 100% penetration! How can one double penetration if you are already achieving 100% penetration? One can get 100% penetration in any thickness of material without any kind of holes in it given enough time at the various stages. Smaller pieces with the hole drilled will make the process go faster but it will not make for better results. The issue you run into then, however, is that due to some bleed out of any heat cured resin, you will need to re-drill the hole after curing which, for me, eats up any savings in vacuum or soak time achieved by pre-drilling.


[*]Your nose is a super good indicator as to penetration. Simply smelling like wood when it's cut is a good sign of poor penetration of the resin. Proper stabilized material will yield 100% coverage and not only seal the wood fibers but saturate the wood fibers in it's entirety and result in plastic, not wood smell. If you smell wood then you have unsealed wood, the stronger the wood smell = the less stabilizing you have. Allow it to dry and fully cure for a week or 2 (defumigate) then slice it open and smell while it is being cut and the fresh cut block afterwards. Having any wood smell on a post processed block is instant failure.

Or better yet, use a black light in a dark room. At least the resin I mention above has fluorescent dye markers in it for just this purpose. Take a sacrificial blank and rip it in half length wise. Then compare it to a non-stabilized blank in a dark room with a black light. You should see a difference. Granted, if it is a hard, dense wood, it will not jump out like a diamond in a goats rear, though since the ratios of resin to wood will be low.


[*]Give it the water test, adding water to the polished block will discolor and give the 'wet look' to poor stabilized material; while good proper stabilized materials will not change. The more drastic 'pop' you have the less stabilized results you have.
[*]Perhaps the best all around test is the kitchen scales and a bucket filled with something like DNA or just plain water. Chop the block into small sections, record the weight of the stabilized material while it is DRY. Then submerge the block for a good day or 3 then re-check the weight and record that, allow it to dry briefly (read 1-2 hours or so) then re-check and record the weight, rince and repeat at longer intervals. Proper stabilized material will *NOT* change that much in this test. [However non-filled open areas will still retain fluid if the area is not filled, i.e. voids] The presence of capillary action is a direct indicator of how much 'filling' you will need in the blank down the road.
[*] stain test: Dunk the cut block from above into a bucket of alcohol based stain, let it sit there for a few days then slice the block open in multiple sections/areas and look at dye penetration. Good proper stabilized material will resist penetration in all forms. You will have some due to open structures, i.e. voids, gaps, cracks and the like. After that take the sections that have stain then wash the area and note how much of the stain is removed, this part of the test results in some of the most controversial topics when it comes to stabilizing.
 
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