Refill standards

[bitshird]

A few weeks ago I asked whether the refills supplied with the kits were worth a Darn, well I got my answer, they ain't worth squat!! I've only been turning pens for a couple of months, and I was so proud of my first pen that it's my daily user, I don't do a tremendous amount of writing, but I do a bit, I have to fill out grade sheets and some 2 page reports each day.
My old parker pen usually lasted a year or more between refills, This Rhizong POC lasted less than two months, So lets figure it out, The plating (satin pearl) has held up so far, the transmission has lasted through out many demonstrations, but the stupid thing quit writing (out of ink) in two months, so we have a 1.65 kit that before sold should have the refill replaced with a cross, or if so equipped a parker refill, where does that put the kit price, I sure as H#ll don't want to sell some one a 20 or 30 dollar pen that's only going to last for two months...
I guess the cheapo piece O crap plating isn’t the only problem with the pen kits is it!
Ken Ferrell

 

[Brewmeister35]

Well, if you pay 1.65 a kit but good refills are $1-$2 each, that should be a little clue. Also, if you have a gel refill, those go quick!

 

[PenWorks]

Does the phrase "you get what you pay for" ring a bell []

 

[gerryr]

The Cross type refills that come with CSUSA and Berea kits last quite a long time. I made my wife an Olympia and it finally needed a new refill after about a year. Cross type refills do not last as long as the Parker type do because they don't have as much ink in them.

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by bitshird
<br />A few weeks ago I asked whether the refills supplied with the kits were worth a Darn, well I got my answer, they ain't worth squat!! I've only been turning pens for a couple of months, and I was so proud of my first pen that it's my daily user, I don't do a tremendous amount of writing, but I do a bit, I have to fill out grade sheets and some 2 page reports each day.
My old parker pen usually lasted a year or more between refills, This Rhizong POC lasted less than two months, So lets figure it out, The plating (satin pearl) has held up so far, the transmission has lasted through out many demonstrations, but the stupid thing quit writing (out of ink) in two months, so we have a 1.65 kit that before sold should have the refill replaced with a cross, or if so equipped a parker refill, where does that put the kit price, I sure as H#ll don't want to sell some one a 20 or 30 dollar pen that's only going to last for two months...
I guess the cheapo piece O crap plating isn’t the only problem with the pen kits is it!
Ken Ferrell

Of that $1.65, about 40 cents is shipping. You are receiving ALL the components and you readily admit it will cost you over a buck for a "good" refill. By your math, that leaves less than a quarter for the brass tubes, centerband, nib and clip-2 part.

I'll be first in line to complain about the margins our suppliers get, but I DO KNOW how to replace a refill - so if a compromise is necessary, I can't think of a better place!!!

JMO[][][]

 

[louisbry]

I agree with Ed Brown. However the alternative is that refills are overpriced.

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by louisbry
<br />I agree with Ed Brown. However the alternative is that refills are overpriced.

THAT, too, is completely correct!!!!!!!!!

 

[workinforwood]

I bought some refills in different colors so customers could have an option. I got them at staples and there was huge signs on the windows, 40% off all ink. They did not give me 40% off at first, but in the end after some arguing they did! Sign said "INK"..didn't say "printer ink". [][][]

 

[ed4copies]

For your arguing pleasure,

"printer ink" is actually called "toner" or "Ink-jet ink"

So, you were ABSOLUTELY correct.

(But, YOU knew THAT!!!)

 

[wdcav1952]

If you don't want to buy refills for the $1.65 kit buy #2 pencils from the back to school supplies. [8]

 

[bitshird]

I think you guys missed the point, Every bodies been griping about the platting, all of the suppliers sell the refills for about the same for a pack of 5, but a genuine cross costs about 3.25 to 4.00 which is less than a pack of 5 cross style refills, made by Quai Gong Phung in eastern Yang province.
And I look at it like why should I lay out 15 to 50 bucks for my first pens, I have a fair amount of confidence in my abilities but NOT THAT MUCH[:0], I did state that the kit was a piece of crap, POC remember?and I had asked about the difference in quality of the refills that most likely all come from the same factory to be sent to the packagers,in Thailand Taiwan or China also I know the price breakdowns , transmissions .65 in lots of 10 ,brass tubes 1.60 for pack of 10. yadda yadda yadda adnauseum .
I'm really just P1$$ed off that unfortunately I have sold 4 of these pens, and given 3 or 4 more as gifts.
I really don't mind buying refills for them and since my floor reports have to be in blue or black ink that lets out the least intelligent response to my question but thanks for trying "Cav".
I remember reading that in pre war Iraq ball point pen refills were being made for about $0.03 each, are you sure the refills in the 8 to 15 dollar kits are better?, or are we back to that perceived value syndrome
Ken Ferrell

 

[Rudy Vey]

I don't know what pen kits you buy from whom, but I am doing this for many years (guess 6 or 7 now) and have a lot of pens under my belt. This, I believe, makes me able to give a beginner some advise.
If you would do a search on refills here, you would find that the refill issue comes up every so often , mostly from beginners.
Let me tell you, from my extensive experience, there quite some differences in the refill quality.
First: all my ball point kits come from Berea, and all refills, Cross-style or Parker-style, are of great quality. Customers came back to me for the same refill their pen came with, because the brand name C or P they replaced it with after it run out did not write as good as the initial cheapo, no-name refill. Thats a fact and I have made well over 1000 ball points and also use my own pens, so I know what I am talking about.
Second: The Hausser refills coming with Berea's rollerballs are crap!
They last a day or maybe two. I either toss them out right away and replace them with a high quality Schmidt refill, or give a Schmidt as a spare refill (cost is not much but it is very appreciated by customers; just put this extra refill in your price!!). These are btw the refills coming with CSUSA rollerball kits.
Third: I have tested the much hyped Pilot G2 and Uniball refills (which I use for writing my checks). They are not bad, but a Schmidt beats them hands down always in writing quality. When I bought these to compare them with the Schmidt, I was disappointed. These refills do smear and are writing not equally good on all papers. The Uniball refill I keep in some pens I use to write my checks, they are supposedly the only ones that cannot be removed from checks ("check washing") - so these are the only ones that are "check-safe".

 

[Randy_]

Ken: Over the past few years there have been quite a few posts by folks who had customers who thought the refills that came with the kit pens were better than the Cross or Parker brand refills. You are buying absolutely bottom of the barrel kits and I don't think it is reasonable to indite all kit pen refills based upon the experience you have had.

 

[bitshird]

Rudy and Randy,
Thanks for some intelligent dialogue on the subject, I only bought 20 of these cheap kits just to get started, Now I've been doing more Euros and Cigars, , Thanks for the tip on Bereas refills, I was going to order some rollerball pen kits from Arizona Silhouette, I just order the refills from him, unfortunately I’ve started 4 antler pens with these kits, but won’t be able to do any thing with them until I get new refills, Thank god I didn’t get any thing with gold plating as well.
I watched the jewelry business go to hell in a hand basket by imported junk, I sure don’t want to contribute to this, I retire next march and will probably be doing this and some jewelry prototyping full time.
I tried to find out as much as I could before making a purchase on pens, Ya live and learn and learn to live .
Thanks for the help
Ken Ferrell

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by bitshird
<br />Rudy and Randy,
Thanks for some intelligent dialogue on the subject, I only bought 20 of these cheap kits just to get started, Now I've been doing more Euros and Cigars, , Thanks for the tip on Bereas refills, I was going to order some rollerball pen kits from Arizona Silhouette, I just order the refills from him, unfortunately I’ve started 4 antler pens with these kits, but won’t be able to do any thing with them until I get new refills, Thank god I didn’t get any thing with gold plating as well.
I watched the jewelry business go to hell in a hand basket by imported junk, I sure don’t want to contribute to this, I retire next march and will probably be doing this and some jewelry prototyping full time.
I tried to find out as much as I could before making a purchase on pens, Ya live and learn and learn to live .
Thanks for the help
Ken Ferrell

Ken, get Schmidt refills!!
Either here:
http://www.yafaoutlet.com/88815.html

or cheaper here:
http://www.theinkflow.com/schmidt_cat.htm

or here:
www.swisherpens.com
(best price is when you buy 12 or more, just $1.20)
I had some time back planned a group buy for these refills, but due to too little interest, it came never to fruition (minimum buy was 2000 pieces!!).

 

[redfishsc]

This whole problem is part of the reason I almost exclusively write with a fountain pen now, aside from check writing.

I always write my checks with a standard black Parker-style. From what I have read, these cannot be "washed" since they are pigment based and not dye based.

I have a good handful of parker-style pens (mostly cigars and sierras) that I have as back-ups in case I run out of FP ink.


BTW, I only use the Pilot G2 Refill, but for the simple reason that I have had good success with them in the rollerballs (you absolutely HAVE to be sure to NOT buy the "extra fine" but the "fine" and I wish they had a "medium" or "broad" G2).

 

[Randy_]

I've had good luck with the Gel Impact RT Uni-ball refill by Sanford. They have a 1mm tip that they call "BOLD." It is the same as most BROAD tips. I found mine at Wal-Mart; but it is hit and miss as they don't always have them in stock. Never tried to get them at Office Depot or similar places.

 

[wdcav1952]

Ken,

I'm sorry, I thought the gentle art of sarcasm was within the intelligence level of the forum. I will try to remember to insert emoticons (those are the funny faces on the right side of the page) often so as not to lose you with my posts.

The main point is that I get so tired of people bitching about quality and seeming to expect Sach's Fifth Avenue service at Kmart prices. Bought in a 10 pack, slimline kits will run from $1.65 to $1.75 apiece. The company in China has to make a profit, after paying their workers a pittance. They have to ship them to the US, and the shipping company probably likes a profit. Rather than risk losing you with following the chain of distribution all the way down to you, suffice it to say that everyone in the chain prefers a profit over a loss. Finally, you get the kit for less than $2 and you bitch that the ink doesn't last long enough for you. Frankly, although I don't write important floor reports for my boss, I have more to worry about in life than having to buy a refill for a pen.

I do pen turning for fun and relaxation, and the yammering about poor quality because your $2 kit isn't accurate to 10 decimal points strikes me as ludicrous.

Ottenga una vita,

 

[redbulldog]

Cav;
You put it very well, my sentiments exactly!!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I'll break my own rule by posting on a bitch[V] tread, Cav you took the words right out of my mouth.[^]

Originally posted by wdcav1952
<br />Ken,

I'm sorry, I thought the gentle art of sarcasm was within the intelligence level of the forum. I will try to remember to insert emoticons (those are the funny faces on the right side of the page) often so as not to lose you with my posts.

The main point is that I get so tired of people bitching about quality and seeming to expect Sach's Fifth Avenue service at Kmart prices. Bought in a 10 pack, slimline kits will run from $1.65 to $1.75 apiece. The company in China has to make a profit, after paying their workers a pittance. They have to ship them to the US, and the shipping company probably likes a profit. Rather than risk losing you with following the chain of distribution all the way down to you, suffice it to say that everyone in the chain prefers a profit over a loss. Finally, you get the kit for less than $2 and you bitch that the ink doesn't last long enough for you. Frankly, although I don't write important floor reports for my boss, I have more to worry about in life than having to buy a refill for a pen.

I do pen turning for fun and relaxation, and the yammering about poor quality because your $2 kit isn't accurate to 10 decimal points strikes me as ludicrous.

Ottenga una vita,

 

[gerryr]

ROTFLMAO[][][]

 

[workinforwood]

There was a great interview I heard on NPR while trucking around the other day. It was about a guy that moved to china to research and write a book about chineese run factories. It was very interesting. The average worker, especially in a factory that is light duty, probably a pen factory would be that, the workers would all be women. They would make an average of $100 per week and work 7 days a week for 12hr shifts. The live in the factory in a dorm shared with 3-10 other people, depending on the factory. 3 meals a day and the dorm are free. The main diet consisting of Pork products, averaging 100 pigs per factory per day. You/I can design my own pen, send it to china, get 10 bids to build it within a day, and have tens of thousands of my pens on my doorstep in under a week. They can re-tool the whole factory to fit whatever your needs are in half a day, ship out several thousand pens that same day to the plating company, then the packaging company and have them at UPS by noon the next day. It's unbelievable.

Yea, you guys are so right about the cost and you get what you paid for. Besides that, how could a factory or distributor know what tip and what color ink your customer wants anyhow? Isn't it your job to either have a case or different refills on hand or at least inform the customer that they can hit up office depot, staples, walmart or wherever and upgrade their pen to the ink and tip style they desire? Be sure and carry a couple of them parker's that write upside down and in the water..those are inspirational to the younger crowds, that also seem to prefer acrylics. Just my opinion of course.

 

[SimonJester]

There are fountain pen inks that can not be washed off of a check. I don't recall what they are, but you may want to ask the pre-eminent fountain pen ink authority: Greg Clark at http://www.inksampler.com/. Greg wrote several versions of a book called The Fountain Pen Ink Sampler, putting each ink through a rigorous testing process. He has now retired from chiropractics and is no longer updating the book.

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by SimonJester
<br />There are fountain pen inks that can not be washed off of a check. I don't recall what they are, but you may want to ask the pre-eminent fountain pen ink authority: Greg Clark at http://www.inksampler.com/. Greg wrote several versions of a book called The Fountain Pen Ink Sampler, putting each ink through a rigorous testing process. He has now retired from chiropractics and is no longer updating the book.

Quick answer, bullet proof inks from Noodlers. I use it on my patient records at the Federal Bureau of Prison since my reports have to be permanent.

 

[DCBluesman]

Worrying about check washing really is so 20th century. With color copiers, printers, scanners and amazing software like Photoshop and others, checks no longer need to be washed. They simply print new ones. As for your signature, 99% of all checksin the U.S. are processed without ANY signature verification. There may be applications for "bullet proof ink" (like William's example), but fear of check washing shouldn't be one.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />.....As for your signature, 99% of all checks in the U.S. are processed without ANY signature verification......

I'm sure Lou is totally correct about this. I have three or four different signatures and they are no way close to being similar. My fountain signature is quite different from my rollerball signature and my "shaky" signature after a hard physical workout is quite different from the other two. And my morning after signature.......heck, I can't even read that one. Oh yeah, I also have a "pissed" signature for signing traffic tickets. Fortunately, I don't have to use that one very much and it doesn't get on my checks.

Oh yeah, the point being I have never had the bank call me to question or verify one of those signatures. I'm guessing it is a lot cheaper for the banks to refund money to their customers when there is a forgery than it is to create a system that would actually verify all signatures as legitimate and allow money to flow in a timely fashion.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Randy, you are probably right about the sigs.. most people don't think about it on checks, but the hardest signature to forge is the one that is carefully and uniformly written out... most of us just scribble something resembling our name... From 1995 until 2005 I worked for a guy who hand signed all of his payroll checks.. his name had about 16 or 17 characters and you could lay the last signature over the first and they would probably match. His partner when he signed the checks would use his first initial in big bold flamboyant script and the rest of his name was a single line.

I only use the tall letters in my name..