PMG Opinions

[ldb2000]

Jim . Your work , at least the pens you have shown so far , would qualify you for admittance into the PMG , the main question is "Do you really care if you become a member?" .
When I first started making pens I found the Guild before I found the IAP . I sat for hours drooling over the work of Jay Pickens and the Gisi's and Bruce Boone and thought that someday I would like to become good enough to be accepted into the Guild .
Well a few months ago I submitted a pen and was accepted . It is one of the proudest moments in my life . I still love to go look at the gallery and drool over the photos of the members and dream of making pens of the caliber of some of these people . I live for the challenge of producing a pen that will top the ones listed there , and someday I might , but until then I will keep drooling .
Anyone who has seen the work there and says that being a member and having a photo gallery with the likes of these people wouldn't boost their ego a few points is either lying or a fool . I don't give a rats a.. about the politics of the guild , it's the work that these people do that inspired me to work towards becoming a member .
If your just trying to show off or brag about being a member then don't bother applying because most of these people really do care about being the best penmakers they can be and it shows in their work . If you really care about this craft and you feel that your work shows a love for the craftsmanship in making the best pens you possibly can then I say " Go for it " , your pens are definitely worthy of acceptance .

Cav . Please send me an application to the BBG I think I can help further the cause (and my hair would meet the requirements)

 

[Ligget]

The problem I have is with a sentence from what Lou posted "Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)".

I make pens from kits, I really enjoy this aspect, I can manage a perfect fit and finish but have problems coming up with the new or novel application, this would have been easier for the first person to do but gradually gets harder as membership numbers increase.

So if I make pens from kits and have perfected the fit and finish does this mean I will never meet the application criteria of the PMG, unless I add something unique?:crying:

 

[jttheclockman]

The problem I have is with a sentence from what Lou posted "Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)".

I make pens from kits, I really enjoy this aspect, I can manage a perfect fit and finish but have problems coming up with the new or novel application, this would have been easier for the first person to do but gradually gets harder as membership numbers increase.

So if I make pens from kits and have perfected the fit and finish does this mean I will never meet the application criteria of the PMG, unless I add something unique?:crying:

Yea Mark neither you nor I will never get in the club. What a shame. :crying: I guess I do not have that big of an ego to need a title after my pens. I will just be happy to share them with us common folk.

 

[ldb2000]

The problem I have is with a sentence from what Lou posted "Perfection in fit and finish is expected along with a new or novel application in materials, construction, decoration, design or other unique feature(s)".

I make pens from kits, I really enjoy this aspect, I can manage a perfect fit and finish but have problems coming up with the new or novel application, this would have been easier for the first person to do but gradually gets harder as membership numbers increase.

So if I make pens from kits and have perfected the fit and finish does this mean I will never meet the application criteria of the PMG, unless I add something unique?:crying:

Mark . I think you are missing the point of the PMG . The guild was founded for those who feel the need to go beyond the perfect kit pen and make a pen that is uniquely their own .
It's not a sign of a "Big Ego" to want to make a pen that goes beyond a beautiful kit pen as someone stated . There is nothing wrong in not wanting to make anything other then beautiful kit pens , and you have made some of the most beautiful kit pens I have ever seen and your finishes are superb (I wish I could get the finishes you get) .
I feel that what the kit manufacturers offer us leave allot of room for improvement , so I go beyond a plain kit pen and modify them or in some cases design my own creations and this is where the PMG comes in . Nothing against the new turners that ask the same questions over and over but after awhile you just want to say enough , search first then ask questions . The PMG avoids this problem by making Advanced penmaking a requirement .

 

[Ligget]

Hi Butch, I didnt say anything about a big ego.

 

[ldb2000]

Hi Butch, I didnt say anything about a big ego.

No Mark you didn't someone else did .

 

[TowMater]

I think some of you folks need to form the Anti-Guild.

I always wonder at the motivations of folks that harbor such strong feelings, but don't bother posting please, as I quit reading about 3 pages ago and just went to the PMG site and looked around for myself.

The great, and at the same time terrible, thing about the internet is that you can start up a group like this anytime you like and call it pretty much anything you like.

I may start up the Lazy Couch Slug Guild if I ever get up the energy.

Greeneyedcat dude, your pens rock. If anyone deserved to be part of an advanced group I would say you are there!

 

[workinforwood]

Several people miss the point of the Guild. Regardless of whether you think the founders are worthy, the ultimate goal is worthy. The guild wants people with new idea's, to expand penturning as a whole. The point of the guild is to have nothing but vast variety of techniques and idea's so as to inspire all others that wish to advance their own skills. If you are happy just making a cigar pen kit, nobody has anything against that. Someone that just makes kit pens from a single piece of wood does not belong in the guild, because of the simple fact that it does not inspire people to explore new idea's. That's all it is all about. It doesn't really have anything to do with your fit and finish, other than the fact that if you make some really awesome new pen design but it is all ragged and rough fitting, then it will defeat it's own purpose of inspiration. When I read what the guild is, that is what I read. You have to look between the lines in some ways to see this. Because of what I believe the guild to truly be, I believe it should exist. I believe John <greeneycat>, should join the guild so that the rest of the world has easy access to his shared idea's and concepts. It's a library of fresh new idea's, nothing more, nothing less.

Now I wish we would stop berating the guild. You don't like the guild, fine, that's your right, but why carry on about it? Start your own private club with your own rules. Only one stopping you is yourself.

 

[scubaman]

Now here is the best information I got out of this topic. Thanks Scott. When I submitted my application I put down I was interested in seeing the gallery and was told it was for members only. I just thought it was another pen turning forum. Did not know it had such a history. HA HA I can see their pens.:tongue:

I'm constantly surprised by people that can't read what's in front of their eyes. If you go to the guild main page, I think it's all spelled out there - there is a link to the gallery right there, you click it and it takes you there! There is also a note that we do NOT use the yahoo 'join' button, and a link to the application page - you click it and it takes you RIGHT THERE. We tried the yahoo JOIN process, and it did not meet our needs. Re. the 'rejection' notice you (or someone) was commenting about - again, if you read it, only the title has the word reject in it... that is out of our control, yahoo adds that. Of course we could not send any notice to people who did not read the main page and clicked JOIN and expect them to perhaps go back and find the info for themselves - I can tell you we had more complaints when people tried to join and nothing happened... so we send a (what I believe to be) very polite letter with the correct information. I'm afraid there is not a single process that will make everyone happy. I would love to be able to suppress the JOIN button, or to take the word REJECT out - but as long as we use yahoo we can't.

I'd like to take the opportunity to address a couple of the issues brought up in this thread, since a lot of people are not aware of the history and some of the posts above present a rather distorted view. I'll just present some facts, I'm not going to drag this out into a discussion. Of course, this is my own perspective.

The Guild was formed before the IAP. The IAP was in part a reaction to the Guild. I'm not inferring that the people that were involved in setting up the IAP (all of whom I know fairly well, I think) never thought about forming such a group before the Guild was set up. But much of the framework was a reaction to the Guild, an improvement. Lots of democracy, lots of rules. The IAP has changed since then, some of the concepts worked, some did not. E.g., the notion of an elite group within the IAP and membership tiers was a subject of much discussion. Who claims to be perfect? Groups evolve. The fact that the Guild has changed over the years is grounds for attacking it?

The Guild is what it's members make it. As it turns out, lots of folks join and never post again, not even pens, let alone discussions. Not exactly what we had in mind when we set it up - but then it's not something to force, and at this point, there *ARE* lots of alternatives that were not there when the guild was formed.

People joining the craft now have no idea where the craft was 6 years ago. What is commonplace now was state of the art once. Closed-end pens, even glued-up pens were NOT always there. Today's penturners benefit from the evolution of the craft. To look at an advanced pen of a few years ago and snicker just shows disrespect for history.

The notion that the Guild is just a platform to promote myself personally is ludicrous. When I managed to get some exposure for the Guild, all members were invited. Some members have got individual exposure in some of the media - I have not. 'nuff said.

Guild-bashing is a sport around here, for some. There are some individuals that love attacking the Guild and me personally. Well, it's their agenda, and I won't even go into the background as to what got them there. I just do not care for the dissemination of false information, half-truths and negative innuendo.

No Guild member has ever claimed that the Guild is the only place for advanced pen makers, as far as I know. I know many many very talented pen makers that have no interest, for any number of reasons. That will always be the case. There are many Guild members that make pens far above what I can make personally - and there are many non-Guild-members whose level I will probably never reach.

I think the Guild can be proud about what we have done for pen making. Things today's newcomers to the craft take for granted. In an indirect sense, the Guild is even responsible a little for this very place to be here, and the way it is operating - if only by providing contrast :smile-big:

Whether to apply? This is where this thread started... This is up to the individual, whether they see a benefit. The Guild has a little bit of name recognition in pen circles at this point. It may help, there's no guarantee. If we get another group-exposure you'll be offered the opportunity to participate. The Guild may change in the future - if the members are interested. The Guild is *NOT* my personal circle of friends... I know some but not all of the members, the council members (btw the term 'elders' died long time ago ;-) are a group with various strengths and areas of expertise, chosen for that reason. We prefer pens not to be widely shown before a submission, simply because it's harder to judge independently and not be swayed by knowing the applicant's identity or by 'public opinion'.

 

[scubaman]

I generally don't post such long posts, and in the time it took me to write this I see a few more pages were posted. WOW! Life is getting too fast for me ;-) I just want to acknowledge a lot of sane information posted above.

 

[jttheclockman]

I see my name was brought up twice here so I will respond. I reported what I found and was sent by way of email. I am glad we are all able to see the great looking pens there. I and am sure many can read things on forums and maybe do not comprehend them right away so if you want to say I am guilty of missing the invite on their home page than shoot me. As far as the problem that I see it is in the name "GUILD" and the concept behind it. If the group was called "Advanced Pen Turning" or something on that line it probably would not take on the negative conotation that it has. I am finished with this conversation Have a great turning day and continue putting out those fantastic pens for all to see on all sites. It gives us beginners motivation.

 

[ed4copies]

Editorial opinion, somewhat unrelated:


Congratulations
IAP members!!
​

This topic has, in the past, degenerated to name calling and nasty entries. I believe this community has raised it's standards. This thread has stayed on the facts and people's opinions, but no one has taken "personal shots!!"

Please KEEP UP the GOOD discourse --- on ALL threads!!

I truly LIKE this group!
and we ARE maturing!
​

 

[Ligget]

Just to personally cover my ass, I was clarifying a point I had, that was carified "thanks Butch", I didln`t want folks thinking I was a guild basher as I may want to join sometime.

I agree with Ed that the group has matured, keep it up everyone.

 

[Russianwolf]

As far as the problem that I see it is in the name "GUILD" and the concept behind it. If the group was called "Advanced Pen Turning" or something on that line it probably would not take on the negative conotation that it has.

precisely. As the "Pen Makers Guild" name implies it would include ALL types of pen makers, not specifically "advanced" or "creative" which I think is the intention.

I don't have any complaints against the group personally, just that one criteria I mentioned doesn't seem to make sense to me.

 

[bruce119]

You know when I first started I discovered the Guild. Before I even knew what it was or meant it seem like a plateau I wanted to achieve. I even had the pleasure of Kurt visiting me very early in my first few months of pen making. He helped inspire me to create. I think I have created a few unique things mostly in the blank part of pen making though. I still have a desire to join the guild and I don't think I am quite there yet. My problem is not skill I just need to take some time and do that masterpiece. Like I told Kurt when he visited me when I apply I want it to be one time the first time. I had my sights set on the guild early in my pen making but now since I am doing shows and making some blanks I just don't have the time. But I do still want to get there Don & Rich are two others that inspired me also. And that is what I would want to do help to inspire others.

 

[wolftat]

This really is not that important in the big picture, so I am going to start my own club and I'm not going to let anyone in ever, for any reason. If you would like to join my club please send the $21,000,000 application fee and if you don't hear from me with in a week, don't be suprised. Now on to better things.

 

[ed4copies]

Neil,

Your check is in the mail and I promise I won't...........................................

fill in the blank!!

Ed

 

[chriselle]

This really is not that important in the big picture, so I am going to start my own club and I'm not going to let anyone in ever, for any reason. If you would like to join my club please send the $21,000,000 application fee and if you don't hear from me with in a week, don't be suprised. Now on to better things.

OK! As long as I don't have to submit a pen.:wink:

 

[Texatdurango]

Wow, I just read through all of this, what a load of garbage from some of you!

The sad thing is that more than likely some of those jealous individuals bashing the guild or bashing individuals in the guild, have probably been helped out by guild members right here on this forum without knowing it!

Personally I have been given lots of advice by Richard on threading and making hidden clips and never once felt he was talking down to me and think some of you guys need to find something more constructive to do if all you can do is bash fellow forum members!

 

[jttheclockman]

I didn't read any bashing of individuals did anyone else??? Opinions!!!!!!!!!! Everyone is entitled to them. Everyone can't agree on everything. Would be a boring world.

 

[bobskio2003]

As a Guild member for about 3 or 4 years now I can say the biggest thing I see out of the guild is the rapid progression of pen making. It's too bad that the photographs aren't in chronological order because then you'd see a real progression (just as has happened in other forms of turning). I got in (I believe) because I was one of the first to work on the knot. I believe I got in just before Ron McNight(? - Sorry not good with name). He was much better at his photography and promotion and really pushed the knot designs and that is just fine with me. But by today's standards I doubt I'd ever be accepted (although I continue to push myself as time allows). I have seen many great pens in this forum and again I suppose if there was a chronological way of seeing pen photos you would see the same progression but the Guild really emphasizes that progression while this forum (while doing the same thing) also encourages and helps out the new folks to pen making and everything in between.

 

[wdcav1952]

I didn't read any bashing of individuals did anyone else??? Opinions!!!!!!!!!! Everyone is entitled to them. Everyone can't agree on everything. Would be a boring world.

Re-read the thread looking for references to Rich K, also known as the founder of the PMG.

 

[jttheclockman]

Re-read the thread looking for references to Rich K, also known as the founder of the PMG.

William there is an underlying message in there that is way before my time of joining this site or any other turning site so I can not comment on that.

 

[wdcav1952]

John,

I have no fight with you on this or any other subject. Since you posted that you had not noticed any bashing of an individual, I made my post. Of course you are right in that this was far before you joined and you have no part in it. I just wanted to make the point that an individual had been bashed.

Enough, someone post a pretty pen.

 

[greeneyedblackcat]

John,

I have no fight with you on this or any other subject. Since you posted that you had not noticed any bashing of an individual, I made my post. Of course you are right in that this was far before you joined and you have no part in it. I just wanted to make the point that an individual had been bashed.

Enough, someone post a pretty pen.

OkeeDoKee, here you go Cav a pretty pen

 

[wdcav1952]

Dadgumit, Jim, I said a pretty pen, not an awesome one!!! :biggrin:

 

[greeneyedblackcat]

Dadgumit, Jim, I said a pretty pen, not an awesome one!!! :biggrin:

My Bad :O Is this one better

 

[wdcav1952]

Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!

 

[ed4copies]

Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!

Hail, Cav, full of bull,

you need the lord with you,

"Blessed" would be your favorite word

And "blessed" would be the fruit of your labors,

should you succeed. Everyone would say, JEEEZZE!

Holy Cav!!! he had a prayer!!

(Just for YOU!!!)

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally Posted by wdcav1952
Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!

Hail, Cav, full of bull,

you need the lord with you,

"Blessed" would be your favorite word

And "blessed" would be the fruit of your labors,

should you succeed. Everyone would say, JEEEZZE!

Holy Cav!!! he had a prayer!!

(Just for YOU!!!)

Ed, after careful and very appreciative consideration of the first prayer ever dedicated to me, I have to ask: Do I get special "Cav"ary beads to go with it? :biggrin:

 

[BRobbins629]

Originally Posted by wdcav1952
Yes, that one I at least have a prayer of making one like it!!





Ed, after careful and very appreciative consideration of the first prayer ever dedicated to me, I have to ask: Do I get special "Cav"ary beads to go with it? :biggrin:

You could try this pen blank

 

[wdcav1952]

Bruce, thanks, but I am looking in to buying the Cheeto someone said looks like Jesus for a special blank!

 

[ed4copies]

Did you say CA???

Bruce, thanks, but I am looking in to buying the Cheeto someone said looks like Jesus for a special blank!

Monty is looking forward to helping you succeed with that one!!!

 

[workinforwood]

I let out a fart that looked like Elvis, but it got away.