Pepper Grinder

[Daniel]

Well here I am. Lowering myself to the Other Things We Make thread.
Actually I have been planning my revolt from pens for quite a while.
I bought a whole set of pepper grinder kits from CSUSA a couple of years ago. Actually set down and drew up a series of designs that ties them all together. I even pawed and wadded my way through e-bay until I found just enough of the right pieces of wood to make the whole set.
I actually cut and glued the blank for the largest one about a year ago.
Used wood glue. well read on.
Anyway night before last I finally got the nerve or caught up enough or however you want to look at it, to actually put that monster in the lathe. well I was not sure if my eyes where playing trick or what but it seemed a bit bigger than a pen blank. so I decided to turn down the speed of the lathe. i would have turned it down farther but my lathe won't go farther. Turns out it should have been turned down farther.
I flipped on the machine and the thing was so unbalanced the lathe tried to leave the shop. seriously it was heading straight for the door, saying something about enough of this. so I trimmed up the beam on my band saw and tried again. flipped that switch and this time the wood had had enough. it promptly got off the lathe and gave a pretty good crack across my thumb, luckily it is not broken cause it should have been. A glue joint had failed. Now I had had enough. I go in the house and fume, go back out to shop and re glue the blank.
Day two. Get to my shop and do some more trimming on the log. mount it to lathe. I think both machine and wood are laughing at me now. flip the switch and everything seems bearable. start turning. wow maybe this will all smooth out after all. I get most of the blank rounded and the lathe is beginning to show signs that it will stop bouncing. bang there goes another glue joint. glue it all up again, and again, and again. in all the joints have failed over 5 times. I originally used wood glue but switched to super glue. Each time a joint failed I could not get the blank glued back together perfectly straight so I lost more diameter getting it round again. now I do not have enough wood left to make my original design.
so far here are my thoughts.
1. wood glue not so good for large glue ups.
2. I need the laminated pieces to make a better fit in order to get a good glue joint.
3. most likely my $99 HF lathe is not gonna be sturdy enough for this job.
4. start over with a single piece of wood rather than a lamination.
5 maybe I can still get my original design in a smaller diameter version if things start working soon.
Any pointers are welcome.

 

[Aderhammer]

Did you clamp together the pieces tightly when you used the wood glue? I just made a lamp that has 9 joints and no probelm turning it. I'm not sure why urs would have failed unless you didn't clamp or the wood was oily or waxed and didn't take the glue.

 

[Daniel]

Yes to the clamps, and all the wood was either cherry, walnut, or maple. so no oily issues. none of it was waxed. some of my cuts could have been better as the thickness of the wood exceeded my largest power saws ability to cut in one pass.

 

[JimBobTucson]

My experience with domestic woods and wood glue have been excellent. I have done a number of laminated cutting boards, chessboards, cabinet door panels, pens, and bottle stopper. Typically the glue joint is stronger then the wood itself. I do joint all glued surfaces, apply glue to both mating surfaces, and clamp for 2 to 3 hours.

 

[Draken]

How old is the glue you were using?

 

[Daniel]

The glue is only a few months old, can't say for sure but it is not old.
I reglued everything with thick super glue as the joints came apart. I spent a few hours working myself up to it, went out to the shop tonight and explained to the balnk that it woudl either be a pepper mill or the dogs new chew toy. not sure that really helped but I do now have the whole blank round. May be able to salvage most of my original design which suprised me. the lathe has started setting still like it should. hopefully the worst is over.
from what I could see when the joints broke is that the glue let go right at the surface of the wood. the glue itself did not break, shatter or anything like that and the wood did not tear out either which is what I would have expected. So basically my guess is that the glue did not bond to the wood as well as it should have. Don't know why as all surfaces where newly sawn clean surfaces. If anything not all the joints where tight even when clamped. The super glue seems to be able to deal with that better. at any rate it seems to be turning now. working on my nerve to go try and cut some profiles now.

 

[winpooh498]

Sorry, but that is a funny story. Our Jet Mini has headed out the door once, until we didn't let it have a choice with the bolts into the bench top! Good luck with the mill, even if the original design doesn't work out let the blank lead you to the final shape.

Good luck!

 

[Randy_]

Different species of woods expand and contract at different rates due to temp and humidity. With those blanks having sat around for so long, maybe there were stresses built up in the glue joints. Not enough stress to pop on their own; but with the added catalyst of turning forces, maybe it was enough to pop the joints.

Oops.....just reread the post and see that you reglued some of the blanks and they still popped. If you did not do a good job of sanding the joints to remove the old glue, a second failure would not be surprising.

Don't know what is going on here; but something has to be wrong. I've seen too many pepper mills made out of laminated blanks to think that it is not possible.

I've never been a fan of CA on wood. Seems like it works better on non-porus surfaces. Without seeing your problem first-hand, the only thing that comes to mind would be trying an epoxy or polyurethane glue.

 

[Aderhammer]

Originally posted by Daniel

Yes to the clamps, and all the wood was either cherry, walnut, or maple. so no oily issues. none of it was waxed. some of my cuts could have been better as the thickness of the wood exceeded my largest power saws ability to cut in one pass.

Funny same choice of woods for my lamp, great minds think alike!

 

[jeffj13]

Fixing #2 will likely change your opinion of #1.

Also, how long were you letting the glue cure. To reach maximum strength, wood glue needs about 24 hours. With flat work you can typically unclamp joints after an hour, but that assumes no stress on the joint. Given the stress of turning, I would wait at least 24 hours.

jeff

 

[dbriski]

Wood glue need a very thin and even layer on the wood and the wood needs to join completely across the joint. Wood glue will not fill the gaps it relys on wood to wood contact and a really really thin glue line. My guess is your joints weren't clean enough. With good joints, wood glue is your best bet for this type of glue up. Also were the glue joints that failed end grain joints? End grain joints don't hold very well.

 

[Daniel]

David, I tend to agree with you on why the joints failed at first.
Seems the super glue fixed the separating problem. I now have the whole blank round and about half of it to shape. I think I am going to still get my design but 1/4 smaller in diameter than originally planned. I may end up liking that better as the drawing even looked a bit large. I am taking my time though and hope to have it finished on sat. I think the worst is over and my spirits have lifted. thanks for being with me during this thematic time. Dawn, I'm glad you got a laugh out of it, at least some good came out of the whole thing. sheesh I feel like a newb that needs to be shown where the on switch is.

 

[Daniel]

Oh David, Yes the joints where end grain and you may have hit on my biggest reason for failure. I had not even thought of that although I know it, at least should know it. that and the joints where not tight through out there surfaces. with the super glue holding the same joints I would say the gaps it did have are a contributor as well. In the future I will sacrifice that extra 1/4 inch diameter in order to get clean one pass cuts. I was seriously ready to swear off pepper mills. It is really not like me to give up on things but I was starting to feel like a certified idiot.

 

[Daniel]

I WIN!!!
Wanted to post this, I still have to make the top and do the finish. but those will be a breeze in comparison.

Thanks for all the help. I think I would have givin up had it non been for this group to go gripe to.

 

[ed4copies]

Hey Daniel,

A FIVE YEAR SUPPLY of pepper on the table all at once!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice job!!

 

[Randy_]

Daniel: If you want to try something a little different in your pepper grinder, McCormick makes something called "PEPPERCORN MEDLEY" that comes in their own little glass and plastic disposable grinders. (which can be refilled and reused if you are determined)

The mix is black pepper corns, pink pepper corns, green pepper corns, white pepper corns, whole allspice and whole coriander in roughly equal proportions. Sounds a little weird; but really is good.

The McCormick stuff is pretty expensive if you use a lot of pepper ($3.50 for less than an ounce) so once I figured out that I liked the mix, I bought some bulk peppercorns on the Internet. There are lots of sources; but the one I chose to do business with with is: http://www.bulkpeppercorns.com/black_peppercorns

 

[ed4copies]

Daniel,

I doubt you want any help at this point, but for future reference, you could have turned a tenon on the spaulted part and a mortise in the walnut to accept it (on both ends). This would have helped your glue along with a mechanical joint. Of course, you still need a hole through it (1"ish), so the tenon should be 1.5" min OD.

I imagine drilling that was a treat anyhow. Hope you did it in sections, where possible.

Again, nice piece!!!

 

[Daniel]

Thanks for the link Randy, What goes inside this thing is up to my wife. Actually she wants one just a bit smaller, around 8 inches tall. I like the tenon idea Ed. and yes I did drill it all one piece, won't try that again. I was only off by 1/2 inch from one end to the other. pretty good for hand drilling. But I could use my drill press if I drilled seperate sections. I learned a lot making this one.

 

[Randy_]

OK, Daniel. I have a couple of questions now that we have a picture.

First off, how tall is the pepper grinder and what is its maximum diameter?

It appears that the joint between the cap and the body (where the twisting occurs) is about 3/4 of the way down from the top where the dark and the light wood meet. Is that upper section drilled out so it can hold peppercorns or is it solid?

Even if the upper section is hollowed out, it must still weigh a ton!! Do you know how much it actually weighs?

And finally, what type of grinder mechanism did you use?

It is sort of an unusual design for a peppermill; but I think when it is finished up, it will make an attractive piece.

 

[Daniel]

Randy, The top knob is not on it yet but will be a traditional looking top (seems I have misplaced that piece of wood[:I]). The mill will be 24 Inches tall when finished. max. dia. is 3-1/8 inches, originaly planned to be 3-1/2
So far it weighs about 1 and a half pounds (No pepper corns). and the parts came from CSUSA. There stainless steel Deluxe version.
I made this one as a part of a complete set for display. I don't think we will actually be using it. would be fun for Christmas eve at my parents. But the real market I see for it is in restaurants. Being in Reno there are several that like to make a show of your meal. They will use grinders of this size so that the waiter or waitress can reach across the table to put pepper on your salad etc. I will have to try again to get a good 24" display though.
This one is anything but great work but I learned a ton in the process. most of my joints show gaps, I actually had to fill a bunch of voids and tear outs,and there are a few placed that I had to glue several small pieces of wood together to make a large enough block. I will not try this again with anything less than 3-1/2 by 3-1/2 stock and that is with planning for the grinder to be 3 to 3-1/8 diameter. I think now that 3-1/2 would be to large. this one is already a hand full but comfortable.