onewaywood
Member
Could some one tell me the pros and cons on using non stabilized
blanks ..[?]
blanks ..[?]
Pen Blanks
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coach
Member
If they are burl or spalted, they are hard to keep together. You will get piths or it will blow out. I'm hooked on BB's eye candy though. Try it and you will feel and see the difference.
driften
Member
Stabilized wood allows you to turn stuff that would have been too soft to do otherwise, but feels a little more "plastic". Natrual wood tends to be easier/faster to turn and tends to feel warmer and more like wood. Stabilized wood actually can be finished with just sanding and buffing kind of like doing plastic. Stabilized wood is less affected by temp or humidity. Natural wood tends to cost less then stabilized wood.
I bet you will get other opinions.
I bet you will get other opinions.
Well said, Jeff!
Scott
Member
In general terms, stabilized blanks are better than non-stabilized blanks in all things except for one - the cost. If I never used anything but stabilized blanks the rest of my life, I would be happy. But the cost gets in the way. [
]
Of course there are some woods that do not take to stabilizing, like the oily rosewoods and such. And I would still want to turn Cocobolo! So take the above statement with a grain of salt. [8D]
Scott.
]Of course there are some woods that do not take to stabilizing, like the oily rosewoods and such. And I would still want to turn Cocobolo! So take the above statement with a grain of salt. [8D]
Scott.
Daniel
Member
Besides holding the soft punky and otherwise unusable types of wood togehter so that it is quite usable for a pen. stabalizing removes the woods ability to expand and contract with chnges in humidity. wood is like a bunch of tiny sponges. when the air gets drier so do the little spnges. when the air is wetter the little sponges get wetter. problem with these sponges is they also get bigger and smaller. on the scale of a pen even a tiny movement means the wood will crack. various woods move at differing rates but all will move. this is what will cause a crack to appear in the barrel of a pen days weeks of even months after it has been turned.
melogic
Member
I think Jeff and Daniel said it best. I like stabilized blanks but my wife hates them. She says they are too hard and have tendency to break. I've tried to tell her to think of these blanks as an acrylic and treat them as such and she will be fine.
vick
Member
No one seems to have mentioned yet that stabelized blanks can decrease your finish time since a ca blo finish is not requires. Just a little friction polish and/or wax and you are good to go.
As for the hardness issue, it seems to depend onthe blank. I had a piece of stabelized Iron Wood and it was like turning a rock. I also seem to see a difference depending on who stabelized it. Different process or something.
As for the hardness issue, it seems to depend onthe blank. I had a piece of stabelized Iron Wood and it was like turning a rock. I also seem to see a difference depending on who stabelized it. Different process or something.
jrc
Member
I have never used stabilized wood, I use only local reclaimed wood. If there soft and punky soak them with CA. Burls I rarely have a blow out. If I used only perfict wood there would be so much beautiful wood that would go to waste.
Soaking a punky wood with CA IS stabilizing it! []
]
leehljp
Member Liaison
I am learning lots here. I am having to shed some of my woodworking impulses too. I thought I liked stabilized blanks better but I see the advantage of non-stabilized blanks in many cases.
The problem I had with non stabilized blanks is that I turned about 20 non stabilized blanks over a couple of months and finished them with CA-BLO. They were turned perfectly with the bushings and fit perfect with the nib and centerband. After a few weeks, I noticed that they had shrunk a fraction of a mm. They were no longer smooth from the barrel to the nib or centerband. Most people (LOML) never noticed this and evne dismissed this when noticed. LOML says I am my own worst critic. BUT if I get to the stage of selling a pen for $50 or more, I am sure the potential buyer will notice the smooth transition.
So, Why is the wood perfect when assembled, but not 3 or 4 weeks later? Is the wood shrinking a fraction of a mm? This has been on paddauk, walnut, cherry, rosewood and wenge. I really try to get the pen (wood) diameter to match the nib and CB perfectly. It Might be impossible, or that I am going about it wrong. If I used an "other than straight" design, it might not be as critical.
Opinions and critiques please - I do want to learn. Lou planted in my brain the idea of non stabilized blanks as being OK and I respect that idea. Now I need to learn how to make up for my deficiencies either in concepts or technical know how.
The problem I had with non stabilized blanks is that I turned about 20 non stabilized blanks over a couple of months and finished them with CA-BLO. They were turned perfectly with the bushings and fit perfect with the nib and centerband. After a few weeks, I noticed that they had shrunk a fraction of a mm. They were no longer smooth from the barrel to the nib or centerband. Most people (LOML) never noticed this and evne dismissed this when noticed. LOML says I am my own worst critic. BUT if I get to the stage of selling a pen for $50 or more, I am sure the potential buyer will notice the smooth transition.
So, Why is the wood perfect when assembled, but not 3 or 4 weeks later? Is the wood shrinking a fraction of a mm? This has been on paddauk, walnut, cherry, rosewood and wenge. I really try to get the pen (wood) diameter to match the nib and CB perfectly. It Might be impossible, or that I am going about it wrong. If I used an "other than straight" design, it might not be as critical.
Opinions and critiques please - I do want to learn. Lou planted in my brain the idea of non stabilized blanks as being OK and I respect that idea. Now I need to learn how to make up for my deficiencies either in concepts or technical know how.
driften
Member
If you are having problems with wood movement after finishing esp after a CA finish it could be the wood was not dry enough before starting.
Non-stabilzed blanks are OK. Nothing wrong with them. Each material has +/-
Non-stabilzed blanks are OK. Nothing wrong with them. Each material has +/-
In dealing with non-stabilized blanks, you are dealing with two separate forces of nature that can cause <b>tiny</b> increases and decreases in size. Both have to do with heat and its effect on the structure of the wood.
With oily woods, the heat build up from turning and sanding causes the oil to expand slightly. As it cools, it returns closely to it's natural size. In non-oily woods, the heat associated with turning and sanding dries the wood out. Upon cooling, the wood then attains its natural moisture content based on the surrounding environment, thus causing it to expand slightly.
There are other factors involved, but this is the primary cause for the movement and leads to much of the cracking of snakewood, ebony and the like. To minimize this movement, the blanks need to be turned and finished very slowly over a period of hours if not days. For the most part, the movement is not visible although it may be felt with the fingernail test.
Most very oily woods cannot be stabilized and thus the attempt to minimize movement by boiling and drying these woods. I've had and heard mized results with this method.
Most non-oily woods can be stabilized. The stabilization replaces the water in wood with plastic. Plastic is virtually impervious to moisture gain and loss, however, plastic is subject to softening when heated, either through turning or sanding.
I am currently conducting tests on both snakewood and ebony to see if there is a process to keep the movement down during pen production. The results should be applicable to all woods on a lesser scale. I'd love to have others run the same or similar tests to see if the results are consistent and to see if any conclusions can be reached. If you are interested and commited to a trial like this, drop me an email.
On a side note, a disadvantage to turning stabilized blanks is you sure don't get the lovely scent of wood when you turn.
With oily woods, the heat build up from turning and sanding causes the oil to expand slightly. As it cools, it returns closely to it's natural size. In non-oily woods, the heat associated with turning and sanding dries the wood out. Upon cooling, the wood then attains its natural moisture content based on the surrounding environment, thus causing it to expand slightly.
There are other factors involved, but this is the primary cause for the movement and leads to much of the cracking of snakewood, ebony and the like. To minimize this movement, the blanks need to be turned and finished very slowly over a period of hours if not days. For the most part, the movement is not visible although it may be felt with the fingernail test.
Most very oily woods cannot be stabilized and thus the attempt to minimize movement by boiling and drying these woods. I've had and heard mized results with this method.
Most non-oily woods can be stabilized. The stabilization replaces the water in wood with plastic. Plastic is virtually impervious to moisture gain and loss, however, plastic is subject to softening when heated, either through turning or sanding.
I am currently conducting tests on both snakewood and ebony to see if there is a process to keep the movement down during pen production. The results should be applicable to all woods on a lesser scale. I'd love to have others run the same or similar tests to see if the results are consistent and to see if any conclusions can be reached. If you are interested and commited to a trial like this, drop me an email.
On a side note, a disadvantage to turning stabilized blanks is you sure don't get the lovely scent of wood when you turn.
driften
Member
Hey Lou... I have two snakewood blanks I have been waiting for something nice to use them and am willing to take my time in making them so they don't crack. I guess I should mail you about your tests.
Speaking of the scent of wood turning.... BOW sure does it for me! I love turning BOW.
Speaking of the scent of wood turning.... BOW sure does it for me! I love turning BOW.
Rudy Vey
Member
Snakewood cannot be stabilized!! I had sent some blank to Steve White at River Ridge Prod and he told me that there was no weight gain after the stabilizing, so nothing entered the wood, it is just too dense.
I'm not talking about stabilizing, Rudy. Just applying some rules to minimizing the heat build up in turning some of these difficult woods. In my experience, ebony and snakewood have been two woods where many people have had failures. BTW, Steve also indicated that stabilization doesn't work particularly well with the Aussie woods, amboyna, afzelia, padauk, cocobolo, ironwood and MANY more.
timdaleiden
Member
I guess you haven't turned much Zebrawood. [xx(]
In addition to what you have stated here, I found a couple of good articles on "Wood Movement". The second article lists a number of woods, and rates them on the amount of movement you can expect.
http://www.americanfurnituredsgn.com/wood_movement.htm
http://www.morlanwoodgifts.com/MM011.ASP?pageno=82
It has been my experience that there are a number of things that can be done to minimize cracking of barrels.
Don't use problem woods with pen kits that require diminutive wood thickness.
Do use a glue that has some give to it, IOW, poly or flexible CA.
Do use a finishing method that seals the wood from the outside environment, including the ends of the barrels.
Do use wood that has been properly dried.
B
Bill Baumbeck
Guest
Lou,
Amboyna, amboyna burl, afzilia, afzilia burl and padauk can be stabilized. :>
BB
Amboyna, amboyna burl, afzilia, afzilia burl and padauk can be stabilized. :>
BB
Daniel
Member
Bill,
You once described what you look for in a good stabalization process. I really lke the way you put it. It ahs reamined in my mind since then as basically taking the wood behavior out of it without taking the wood out of it. more accuratly a good stabalization does not fill the wood pours up with "Plastic" but does prevent the moisture from getting in while still leaving the cells of the wood empty or whatever so that the wood still looks feels and acts like wood as much as possible.
anyway you discribed it very well adn in much fewer words. wish I had copied it I've wanted to quote you many times since.
You once described what you look for in a good stabalization process. I really lke the way you put it. It ahs reamined in my mind since then as basically taking the wood behavior out of it without taking the wood out of it. more accuratly a good stabalization does not fill the wood pours up with "Plastic" but does prevent the moisture from getting in while still leaving the cells of the wood empty or whatever so that the wood still looks feels and acts like wood as much as possible.
anyway you discribed it very well adn in much fewer words. wish I had copied it I've wanted to quote you many times since.
Bill--Guess where my next batch is going!!! []
]JimGo
Member
Tim,
Your point about sealing the ENDS of the barrels is a very good one; hadn't thought about that.
Your point about sealing the ENDS of the barrels is a very good one; hadn't thought about that.
timdaleiden
Member
Thank Russ Fairfield. He uses thin CA on the ends, and I am pretty sure he mentions this on his penturning tutorial website found in the links section here.
http://www.woodturner-russ.com/Pen10.html
His tutorial saved me a lot of trial and error.
I just want to add to my previous post, that I agree with Scott that properly stabilized blanks offer many advantages over non-stabilized blanks. I even like the smell. [
]On the downside, I have no idea on what the long-term health effects of turning stabilized wood might be. I assume breathing plastic dust is not good, so dust collection "may" be more important than with non-stabilized wood.
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