Newbie with questions!

[rick_lindsey]

Hello! I've always been interested in getting a lathe and setting up a shop in my garage, but everytime I saved up enough to buy a lathe I realized I also needed tools... and a grinder... and a sharpening jig... and a bandsaw for cutting the wood... and a drillpress... and it never happened.

After moving to tucson, I discovered that my new employer had a woodworking club, and in fact had an entire woodshop on the plant-site! I joined the club, and have been going over a couple times a week to practice with the lathe during my lunch hours. At first I was having a hard time, because the lathe tools were all dull and I didn't know how to sharpen them. I still don't, really, but one of the club members showed me how to sharpen them freehand on the belt sander, so that's what I've been doing before I start. I picked up some purpleheart and bloodwood and have been playing at making hairsticks. Another member gave me a handful of pre-drilled pen blanks to play with, and I turned my first pen on my own... a walnut slimline (I took a woodcraft pen turning class last spring).

I decided to make pens for the father-figures this christmas (my father, her father, her step-father, and her grandfather), so I picked up a chunk of cocobola and cut it into 4 pen blanks and 2 stopper blanks (planning to make a bottle stopper for my honey).

I've got a handful of Euro kits and a bushing set for the Euros, (I like them better than slimlines, and they were on sale! I would have gotten all black-titanium but they only had 2, so I also got a platinum and a gold. This was also the kit I made in the woodcraft class). The club has a standard mandrel for slimlines, which I understand will also work for my euros.

Wish me luck as I take my first big step down this slippery slope! I'm hoping to get all 4 pens made before we go to Reno for christmas (a week and a half, yikes!).

I have a few questions and concerns... on my walnut slimline I noticed that the barrels are just a touch out of round... the top barrel is flush with the centerbarrel on one side, but rotate 180 degrees and it stands a bit proud. The bottom barrel doesn't ever get quite flush so it's harder to tell on that one .

I assume this is because i'm turning both barrels together on a mandrel and it's bowing ever so slightly? I've heard of going to "mandrel-less" turning to avoid this problem, how does that work? Are there shorter mandrels available that solve the problem but still use the standard bushings?

Also, my wood is cocobola, which I think i've heard is an oily wood. What finish recommendations would you have for a newbie in a hurry with cocobola? I really like the way the grain looks where I cut it (it was waxed or something so you couldn't really see the grain from the outside of the 2x2x12 chunk), and I think it's a more appropriate wood for the father figures than purpleheart.

thanks!!!

-Rick

 

[Brewmeister35]

Hi Rick,

The out of round can be caused by a few different things. Most often, I think it's caused by the blanks not being trimmed square. When you tighten the mandrel, it causes it to bend slightly while tightening the non-perfect ends. A simple thing to try is loosening the mandrel nut after the blanks are round and re-tighten it. Sometimes it can tighten up a lot while turning them to round. I'll wait for others to chime in about mandrel-less turning with a euro. I do it with anything bigger than 7 mm but the euro's I haven't figured out how to do them without making or buying custom bushings. There is also adjustable mandrels sold pretty much anywhere but I believe the one's from arizonasilhouette.com are known to be the best type. Another option is using a collet chuck.

As far as a finish goes, some will disagree here but since you are new to this and creating these for this christmas, I'd suggest friction polish or deft spray laquer. Cocobolo is a gorgeous wood and is very dense. If you do use friction polish, make sure you get it extremely hot while it's being applied.

Take some time to play with CA finishes when you can. Read the two postings on the old and new ways that have gotten a lot of attention. They are both good methods and best of all, they're different ways since no one way works for everyone you can try both.

 

[leehljp]

I have a few questions and concerns... on my walnut slimline I noticed that the barrels are just a touch out of round... the top barrel is flush with the centerbarrel on one side, but rotate 180 degrees and it stands a bit proud. The bottom barrel doesn't ever get quite flush so it's harder to tell on that one .

I assume this is because i'm turning both barrels together on a mandrel and it's bowing ever so slightly? I've heard of going to "mandrel-less" turning to avoid this problem, how does that work? Are there shorter mandrels available that solve the problem but still use the standard bushings?

Also, my wood is cocobola, which I think i've heard is an oily wood. What finish recommendations would you have for a newbie in a hurry with cocobola? I really like the way the grain looks where I cut it (it was waxed or something so you couldn't really see the grain from the outside of the 2x2x12 chunk), and I think it's a more appropriate wood for the father figures than purpleheart. thanks!!!
-Rick

• As mentioned above, unsquare ends can cause that; also:
• A tad too much pressure from the tail stock can do that;
• OOR bushings can do that (but OOR bushings will cause the same on mandrel-less - until the bushings are removed for sizing and finish sanding.
• OOR mandrel can cause this
• Worn bushings, but I don't think that you would have this problem this early on.
• Stock Wood turning live center; You Need a 60° live center for mandrels. None 60° live centers will cause a wallowing effect in the cusp of the mandrel, which can cause OOR.

I use CA on oily woods often without a problem. On oily woods I do start with thin CA for two or three coats and then add my medium or thicker coats.

 

[rick_lindsey]

hrm, i'm not sure our live center is 60 degrees... i'm just using whatever is on the club lathe at the moment, i haven't measured it ora nything. I trued up my blanks with that little tool (the one with the rod that pokes into the brass tube and then you "drill" the blank until you hit brass), but our tool is rather dull so i might not have gotten good true ends.

The bushings on the out-of-round slimline were actually the club bushings, so i suspect they're pretty old. I've got my own euro bushings though .

I'm hoping to get all 4 blanks cut to length and drilled tonight... it's our club meeting though so I might not actually do any turning today (it would be rude to skip our elections I think, but I'd like to get all 4 blanks prepped and tubes glued in tonight).

Thanks guys!

-Rick

 

[Fred]

If you believe your blanks are not being squared, try making a jig and use a belt sander .. carefully. Check in the Forum Archives for plans on making one. They are rather easy to make and give excellent results as long as they are square to the sandpaper.

Forget about sanding your tools to TRY and get them sharp .. that is NOT the way to go. Grinders are also not the best thing to use either - for lawnmower blades maybe, but not expensive wood cutting tools. Learn about slow, wet sharpening devices such as the Torkmek, which is considered by many to be the Cadillac of slow sharpening devices. JET also makes one, but most here state they use the Tormek jigs with it. The Tormek costs enough so it should be a Cadillac.

Get yourself your own bushings and mandrel(s) and protect them from being used/abused by others. Many here use one set of bushings and one mandrel - this also keeps the bushing set together and therefore easier to store everthing in one place. Plano Plastics (at Walmart sporting goods dept.) makes a nice plactic box with changable compartments for lures - works great for pen parts and such. One box per kit ... They have a group of four that comes with it's own framework which is very handy.

Buy the best tools you can afford - save up if necessary to avoid replacing them in short order. My advice - stay away from the Harbor Freight tools as their quality just is not all there. Turning tools with langer handles are better for control, comfort in use, and stability.

KEEP your turning tools clean and scary sharp. Your turning skills will greatly improve as will your results. For example, proper use of the SKEW will result in less sanding times. :wink:

DON'T LOAN YOUR TOOLS as others may not take as good care of them as you will. They didn't buy them so why should they care if they get dull! Not everyone is that way, but all it takes is one out of the crowd.

Take your tools home evertime you go to the shop too. Sharpen them as often as is necessary, and always prior to starting a new project.

A great finish on Cocobolo is a CA finish. The CA reqcts quite nicely with the oils in the wood and thus makes for a rock hard, glass like finish. Use Micro Mesh to finish off the CA. Take your time in applying and build up a great finish with several coats of CA. Watch out for the instant heat that is associated with the use of the CA on oily woods - it can, and will burn you!

Keep at it and ask more questions here ... we all learn from other's mistakes (If we pay attention that is!) :biggrin:

 

[leehljp]

hrm, i'm not sure our live center is 60 degrees... i'm just using whatever is on the club lathe at the moment, i haven't measured it ora nything.

-Rick

Here is how to check - manually fit the live center up to the small dimple/cup in the end of the mandrel. The point of the live center should totally match the dimple.

If it doesn't and there is a difference between the angle of the live center and the mandrel dimple, make a note to the manager of the club that OOR can and will occur under current conditions. Eventually the point of the woodworking live center will dull and cause a small wallowing effect which will cause OOR as you described.

 

[rick_lindsey]

We had our monthly meeting tonight, but I forgot to go look at our livecenter . On a plus note I borrowed a 7mm drill bit from a coworker and drilled my blanks after the meeting . Some of them didn't go as straight as I'd like (old drill press, i'm not entirely sure the table is flat) but I have rather fat blanks so i think i'll be ok (I cut a 2x2x12 piece of cocobola into 2 3" bottle stopper blanks and took the leftover 6" long piece and quartered it lengthwise).

Fred, I've got my own bushings for the euro, but I haven't bought a mandrel or tools etc. Unfortunately my budget for this stuff is really quite small, and I blew most of it on kits, bushings, and my stopper mandrel (which got bent ). Time to start saving pennies again, though I think I'll put one of the arizona silhouette adjustable mandrels on my christmas list (along with one of their rock-solid looking stopper mandrels with the built-in #2MT)

I may be able to talk the club into buying a sharpening jig next year... they're planning to pick up a "decent" set of turning tools -- I think they may be considering this set : http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=145913&FamilyID=5238

The guy that's looking into it mentioned "Pinnacle" as a brand I think? I guess the ones they have aren't very good (I wouldn't know the difference I'm afraid)

On one of the grinders is something that looks like it might be a sharpening jig, but i haven't the foggiest clue how to use it. It's got what looks like a place to rest the tool handle sticking out to hold it at a particular angle to the wheel... would that be used for a gouge?

While I plan to start a small collection of mandrel/bushings etc. I'm afraid a sharpening system of my own is not in my immediate future. I might be able to invest in a really nice gouge or skew something... when I did my pen at the woodcrafter class I basically used the same gouge for most of my work, except parting the tenon.

I've noticed that I can get a much smoother surface off the skew when it goes well... of course when it doesn't it catches and makes a nice big tearout .

-Rick

 

[monkeynutz]

On one of the grinders is something that looks like it might be a sharpening jig, but i haven't the foggiest clue how to use it. It's got what looks like a place to rest the tool handle sticking out to hold it at a particular angle to the wheel... would that be used for a gouge?

That sounds like a Wolverine jig (google it). In its stock (stationary) configuration, it's used for chisels and scrapers (straight, flat cutting edges). To do gouges with it takes a special accessory, which holds the gouge and rocks back and forth in the "cup" of the stationary arm to shape the gouge tip.

 

[Robert Taylor]

"My advice - stay away from the Harbor Freight tools as their quality just is not all there."


Well Fred I'm gonna disagree with you here. there was a recent article in AAW Journal magazine where they tested the steel in several of the major brands of turning chisels. The Harbor Freieght chisels have a nearly identicle metal composition as the Sorby Tools. That is the $50.00 set not the cheapie $20.00 set. I think many will agree that it is a great starter set for new turners for the money. then they can upgrade the chisels that they use. while a set with matching handles looks pretty on the wall or bench it is not what most turners have/use. just my $.02 FWIW

 

[Scott]

Hi Rick!

Since you said you are a newbie in a hurry, I would suggest you stick with a friction polish this time. It is easy and almost foolproof. The downside is that it is not all that durable, but Cocobolo is a beautiful dense oily wood, and even if the friction polish wears out with use, the patina from using such a nice wood will continue to look good! Then when you have time to practice, then I suggest you move on to a CA finish as many have suggested.

Good luck! They are going to love these pens!

Scott.

 

[rick_lindsey]

Thanks, scott. After doing a search on "cocobola" in the finishing forum hear and reading russ's page about "natural finish" I had come to a similar conclusion . My only question now is should i go get something specific at woodcrafters or just go get a little jar of shellawax at the BORG?

I checked both the mandrel (which seems to be true) and the live center (which appears to be 60degrees) so it sounds like maybe my problem was either non-square ends or too much pressure. I may have used too much pressure when turning as well since my tools aren't usually very sharp. Tomorrow at lunch I'll try turning the first pen since the blank is all set (tubes glued in, used the pen mill on it, etc.). hopefully I'll be able to detect any out-of-round condition on the mandrel from the bushing, and if it looks like i'm still having issues i'll report back with more questions!

thanks!

-Rick

 

[Scott]

Hi Rick,

The stuff I keep around is HUT Crystal Coat (not purchased from HUT), but I have used Shellawax and it is fine too! (Yes, I still occasionally use a friction polish! There are so many nice finishing products on the market - why would I deprive myself of any of them?)

Good luck! I think you'll do fine!

Scott.

 

[rick_lindsey]

I'm thinking I'll go with the shellawax... have to find somewhere to get it though since woodcraft didn't have any. I sent my wife to woodcraft today while I was at work to pick up an extra euro kit and some micromesh, and she came back with a Classic American Fountain Pen (she called from the parking lot so I told her to go back in and buy the bushings too). I'm already slipping rapidly down this slope!

I got the first cocobola Euro turned, and the top barrel turned out fairly nice i think, but i turned it a bit much at the nib end . I went ahead and sanded and micromeshed it, but discovered after the fact that i need to go back and hit the nib end again (the inside of the little dip got missed at one of the coarser grits i think so i'm gonna start back at 220 or so just for that end of the pen). I may go back to woodcraft (again!) and buy some extra brass tubes for euro kits so that if I have time I can make a replacement set of barrels from bloodwood and not have to use this first set.

Is it really useful to go through all the micromeshes on the bare wood? I did 600 and cleaned it off with paper towels, and it doesn't look that much shinier/smoother after doing all the micromeshes. I would assume that if I were polishing after applying a finish that the micromesh will make a big difference, but is there any point in going past 600 before applying the friction polish?

thanks!

-Rick

 

[gljjr]

If you turned the nib end down too much, you can build it back up with CA and then sand it down to the correct size. At that point you may as well finish the pen with a CA finish I would start off with a couple of coats of thin CA and then several coats of Medium CA until you are well proud of the size you want. Then get the 220 paper out and start slowly sanding it down to size. Then work your way through all the finer grits of sand paper and MM and finish off with a nice chrome polish or plastic polish and you are done. Very easy and actually takes very little time as you are only spending about 15-20 seconds on each of the MM steps.

BTW: Harbor Freight sells a knock off of the Tormek sharpener that often goes on sale for $69. I picked up one and the Tormek jigs work on it just fine. For my occasional use it was a great investment! All my tools and knives are now VERY sharp! Most times, I just use the leather strop at the beginning of a turning session to touch up the tools now. I don't even have to hit them with the grinder. Once you get the tool sharp, it is much easier to keep it that way! As soon as it feels like it is not cutting correctly put it on the strop and bring it right back into shape. Your tools will last longer, and you will spend far less time sharpening them. Granted it may not last as long as the Tormek might, but I figure I can buy 4 of them at that price before I get to the cost of the Tormek.

IMHO if I'm doing a friction finish I stop at 800 and don't use the MM. If I'm doing a CA finish I go all the way down. I like the matt finish from the HUT Crystal Coat with the 800 on some woods. If I want a glossy pen I use a CA finish.

 

[rick_lindsey]

I played around a bit with the overturned blank, mostly it turned into CA finish practice. I think my "thin" CA might be a bit old -- it didn't want to cure very fast, when I kept rubbing my paper towel back and forth, back and forth, it would get tacky and eventually tear off a piece of paper towel. On the plus side after I sanded that piece of paper towel off and sanded it back up through micromesh it was nice and shiny . I think I see where a CA finish can take me, I just need some more practice to get there.

Unfortunately I ruined another cocobola blank . It turned right nicely, and I put some sanding sealer on while sanding it up, then used a friction polish on it. I think i read once that it should smoke while applying friction polish? I got a touch of smoke on one barrel, all was well. On the other barrel I tried to make it smoke, and ended up discoloring the blank . I was then trying to do the same thing all over the blank and ended up scorching some of the wood away .

Ah well, live and learn! Eventually I'll get one of these pens finished without a mishap
-Rick

 

[Scott]

Wow Rick! Are your fingers OK? Sounds like you were producing some serious heat! ;-)

I think you're on the right track! It's nice to buy extra brass tubes for the kits you are using, and make up extra blanks. Turn them all, and then pick the best to put your kits together with. If they all turn out nice, just buy more kits!

You know we are going to want to see pictures, don't you? ;-)

Scott.

 

[rick_lindsey]

Yeah, I'm hoping I can hold you off until I have a pen that I *didn't* screw up before I post pictures

-Rick

 

[mywoodshopca]

Here is how to check - manually fit the live center up to the small dimple/cup in the end of the mandrel. The point of the live center should totally match the dimple.

If it doesn't and there is a difference between the angle of the live center and the mandrel dimple, make a note to the manager of the club that OOR can and will occur under current conditions. Eventually the point of the woodworking live center will dull and cause a small wallowing effect which will cause OOR as you described.

I think thats the problem I had.. after a few pens on the new mandrel, noticed my live center was all worn down, almost like a part of it was stuck inside the mandrel rod.. I origionally thought a but of ca somehow got in there and snapped it off..

Been having a issue with oor lately as well.