New member response

[Stuart Robertson]

Firstly,thankyou for the warm welcome from various members.
As someone new to pen turning the scope of information and experience now available to me is somewhat overwhelming!

Looking through the gallery I am stunned by both the skills displayed
and the time put in to achieve the results.
It would seem that even at a basic level one is going to struggle to recover costs.

I have a number of queries and this may not be the right category to ask them?
1.Bushes a bit sloppy on mandrel leading to body being a little out of round at junctions.Are better quality available or do you have to make your own?
2.Pen kits here are Chinese or Taiwanese. Comments on the quality of these and what else is available out there?
3.Although I am a professional wood worker, how to accurately machine tiny pieces of wood?
Tiny machines?

 

[magpens]

@Stuart Robertson

It would seem that even at a basic level one is going to struggle to recover costs.

I have a number of queries and this may not be the right category to ask them?
1.Bushes a bit sloppy on mandrel leading to body being a little out of round at junctions.Are better quality available or do you have to make your own?
2.Pen kits here are Chinese or Taiwanese. Comments on the quality of these and what else is available out there?
3.Although I am a professional wood worker, how to accurately machine tiny pieces of wood?
Tiny machines?

Commenting, very briefly and inadequately, about your comments and questions . . . but it's a start.

Making pens is not a "get rich" proposition ! . . You can recover costs, and a little beyond that, as long as you're not trying to get paid for your time according to industrial wage scales ! ! !

Question 1. . . Dispense with bushings and mandrel; use the "Turning between centers method" . . details are in IAP Resources . . or ask

Question 2. . . There are some British made pen kits, and there are now (again) some US made pen kits ( I think ).
The best "Oriental" pen kits are made by the Dayacom company. . . They have a website, but not practical for individuals to buy direct.
You can go to their website, find the pens you'd like, and look around for a vendor. . But things are made difficult by vendors changing the names sometimes. . . A couple of vendors are Exotic Blanks, and Craft Supplies USA. . . As some of use for guidance.

You can get some good ideas about desirable pen kits by looking at photos presented in the "Show Off Your Pens" forum here on IAP,
and then asking certain individuals about the kits you are attracted to. . I've tried a lot and can help, but so can others.

Question 3. . . Accurate machining is best done on a metal-working lathe. . I've been using a Sieg mini lathe for over 10 years with good success. . . A fairly steep learning curve but you can do it !

Now, these are only sketchy answers to your questions. . I'd be happy to provide greater detail if I know more completely what you want to know. . . Send me a private message . . "conversation" . . and we can go from there.

There are plenty of people on IAP who can give you the help you may need . . . I may be able to . . . Happy to help if I can. . Give it a shot !

There are many helpful people here so you have lots of resources to draw from . . just choose your path and ask specific questions.

Hoping to help in any way I can.

 

[egnald]

Greetings from Nebraska in the USA!

1.Bushes a bit sloppy on mandrel leading to body being a little out of round at junctions. Are better quality available or do you have to make your own?
I have had bushings that were a little sloppy on my mandrel and others that were tight. The standard "7mm" or "A" mandrel is specified at 0.247 inches +0/-0.0002 inches. What I found was that the stock mandrel that I had was actually 0.242 inches, thus some of my bushings were a little sloppy while others were not. I think it has a lot to do with the tolerances, machining, and plating thickness on the bushings. So, I replaced my mandrel (rod only) with a length of "D Drill Rod" which is 0.246-inches in diameter. This gave most of my bushings a much better fit, some however, were too tight to go on the "D Drill Rod", so for those I switch back to a "C Drill Rod" in my mandrel which is 0.242-inches in diameter. You will also find that there are many members that do not use bushings at all, but turn between centers or that use special turn-between-center bushings.

2.Pen kits here are Chinese or Taiwanese. Comments on the quality of these and what else is available out there?
As Mal already indicated, most will say Daycom in Taiwan has better quality than kits that come out of China. That being said, I have used kits that I'm sure were manufactured in China and have been satisfied with the results (so far anyway).

3.Although I am a professional wood worker, how to accurately machine tiny pieces of wood?
Tiny machines?
I am sure that metal working lathes and mills would be outstanding as far as accuracy when machining wood, but, these are a luxury that not many of us woodworkers can afford. Some use, as you suggested, tiny machines such as those that model builders use like the Byrnes table saw. I don't have any of these things, but I get by with traditional woodworking tools, sandpaper, and a set of digital calipers.

I don't know if my comments will be helpful or not, and I am sure that there are many other members that have much more experience and will be willing to share their expertise with you.

That being said, I am very envious of some of the timbers that are available in your part of the world. - Dave

 

[monophoto]

Stuart

You asked about accurately machining small items in wood. That's an interesting question.

As you know, wood expands and contracts with changes in ambient humidity. You can 'accurately' machine it today, and tomorrow it will be either too large or too small. So the secret to working in wood without going completely crazy (some would argue that being crazy is a necessary prerequisite for working with wood) is to make allowances in the design of whatever you are making so that the natural movement won't be a problem.

Pen turners usually don't have a great deal of problem with wood movement because pens are small, and if there is movement, the movement is also small. However, it's not unusual for a pen turner to find that a wooden pen has cracked because the moisture content of the wood was high when the tube was glued into the barrel blank, and when it later dried, the wood couldn't shrink without cracking. Being aware of moisture content and shrinkage is important, as is the flexibility to occasionally remake a pen if it does crack.

Turners who do larger items are more aware of shrinkage and they simply accept that turnings can distort over time. But if the products they make include metal or glass components that can't expand or contract, they also understand that steps must be taken to anticipate movement. I've used glass test tubes as liners in small vases, and I've learned the hard way that the hole is large enough for the wood to shrink around the glass. I've also made a number of hand mirrors, and I've always made sure that the recess for the mirror is large enough for the wood to compress without touching the glass, and I've also made a point of using flexible glues to attach the glass components.

 

[magpens]

@Stuart Robertson

I made a couple of typos when I did a hasty edit :-

@Stuart Robertson

As some of use for guidance.

SHOULD READ :- Ask some of us for guidance.

 

[Stuart Robertson]

Thanks for your advice Mal,Dave,Louie.
Pen making adds another string to my bow I guess, and allows for a nice bit of wood to dress up a useful item.And with simple design, gives a quick reward for effort.
Selling pens for quite a few dollars against such a now throwaway item is bridge I have yet to cross.

I accept the sponge like nature of wood and limits to accuracy that come with it.Any splitting so far has been where the swage slightly expands the tube on assembly and your hear that little click....
What I had hoped for and expected,in good faith,that the metal tooling,namely mandrels etc
would be machined to better tolerances.This has been a bit disappointing,so thankyou for your collective suggestions regarding this.
In terms of "accurately" machining tiny pieces I was referring mostly to square , rectangular or angular pieces for laminating.Much of my machinery is just too big and fierce for delicate work.
I have today investigated the rabbit hole of model making tools and in particular the Byrne benchtop saw.

With regard to the timbers endemic to these islands;some blanks are available.
My general comment would be that whilst they can look spectacular in a large item such as a table,floor or wall linings in tiny pieces such as a pen they tend to be rather bland and lacklustre. There are a few exceptions to this in select pieces such as Swamp Kauri,Rewa rewa,Totara,Puriri, Black Maire.
And
Burr in any of these,if you can ever find it.
I am most often using locally grown European species such as Yew or elm and anything unusual.
Best regards

 

[leehljp]

Many here stabilize their wood blanks. Even though wood "moves", or in other words contracts and expands with humidity changes, stabilizing under a vacuum and then pressure decreases much of the movement for many wood species. There are a few woods that contract/expand very little with humidity changes.

That said, in general for those that measure with calipers, .005 inches is the target goal of most in measurements - mainly because that is the most accurate that common calipers have. OF course more expensive calipers (triple the price of low end calipers) can measure more precisely, as can micrometers, which can measure at .0001 inch or better.

Some feel that this may be overkill, but the more precise and more consistently precise pen fittings are, the more that higher prices can be expected. Not all people searching for a pen will feel for the transition points, but some will.

To me, it does not take but an extra minute or two at the most, on each pen to bring the blanks into that realm of precision. Some people will not notice, but for those that do, that means extra sales that would otherwise be lost. And for those that do notice, they will be returning customers and probably bring in others who will gladly pay the higher prices for the precision fit - that only takes an extra minute or so per pen.

Bushings:
OH, this assumes that you have higher quality bushings. TBC is a method of turning without the mandrel, which over time can introduce non-concentric or even out of round (oval) blanks. Mandrels work for many, and there are a couple of higher priced mandrels that seem to be getting better reviews than others - Woodpeckers and Whiteside. Still, the less mechanical parts introduced into the equation for round blanks, the more chances of precision.

Blanks should be turned to size as measured by calipers or micrometers, NOT the BUSHINGS. Bushings were long ago described as being "consumables", meaning that they were not permanent as the tools and lathe are. They will wear out fast if they are used to determine the size because, sand paper rubbing over them or slight nicks by the chisel will decrease their size over 10 or 20 or 30 blanks. On TBC, the bushings are removed once "near size" is attained, and then the bushings will be around much longer.

 

[Stuart Robertson]

Thanks for your reply Hank,
Although I purchased the mandrel and bush set up as a "quality" item I can see that this is really not the case.Aside from the sloppy bushings the mandrel saver is also a poor fit to the mandrel shaft and is also sloppy on it's own bearing.
I do prefer to turn both parts of a two piece pen at the same time.
Should one aim for a micro bevel leading into the junction points rather than a flush fit as a square edge will be more conspicuous under expansion or contraction.
Is there an item on TBC turning blanks somewhere?

 

[magpens]

@Stuart Robertson

There are a number of threads and library articles about TBC.

I found this one by doing a search for "Turning Between Centers" ( titles only), which turned up many others also.

Turning Between Centers

The photo guide will help some to better understand what is involved and how simple this method is. Click on the image below to begin download of PDF. Author: George Butcher

www.penturners.org

It is not a difficult technique to learn. . You need a good pair of calipers, a fixed center in your headstock, and rotating center in tailstock.

 

[howsitwork]

Stuart

if you have the time and facilities it's challenging to make your own , exact fitting bushes, make a few matching ones accepting the workshop gremlins will demand their share DAMHIKT

 

[Stuart Robertson]

@Stuart Robertson

There are a number of threads and library articles about TBC.

I found this one by doing a search for "Turning Between Centers" ( titles only), which turned up many others also.

Turning Between Centers

The photo guide will help some to better understand what is involved and how simple this method is. Click on the image below to begin download of PDF. Author: George Butcher

www.penturners.org

It is not a difficult technique to learn. . You need a good pair of calipers, a fixed center in your headstock, and rotating center in tailstock.

Thanks for locating that for me Mal.
A very good 'how to'.
I did do a search earlier but am still fumbling a bit in using this resource and didn't find that one.Also had a quick look on YouTube.
So starting to get a clear understanding of options.
I'm also getting the idea that pen turning is a canvas for creating a little jewel ,in the first instance, to satisfy ,and challenge, oneself.
What happens to it after that,who knows?

 

[Stuart Robertson]

Stuart

if you have the time and facilities it's challenging to make your own , exact fitting bushes, make a few matching ones accepting the workshop gremlins will demand their share DAMHIKT

Many years ago I did pre apprenticeship training in machineshop with milling,lathe work and precision grinding,basic heat treatment etc.So have a good sense of how to do,and how it should be.
However I turned to wood,so to speak,and no longer have access to those facilities.Skills a bit rusty too.
Have to say I am a bit disappointed with the crap I have on hand.
With CNC machining these days there's little excuse...

 

[leehljp]

Thanks for your reply Hank,
Although I purchased the mandrel and bush set up as a "quality" item I can see that this is really not the case.Aside from the sloppy bushings the mandrel saver is also a poor fit to the mandrel shaft and is also sloppy on it's own bearing.
I do prefer to turn both parts of a two piece pen at the same time.
Should one aim for a micro bevel leading into the junction points rather than a flush fit as a square edge will be more conspicuous under expansion or contraction.
Is there an item on TBC turning blanks somewhere?

Many do a tiny bevel or round-over, and that makes for a very good transition in many cases.

Others have answered the TBC question with good links and explanations.