More of a proof of concept than

[gerryr]

The way I view tutorials may or may not be the same as others. I think there are a very few instances where a tutorial is really necessary, like how to set up a pressure pot or how to do powder coating. Beyond that I view the requests for tutorials as nothing less than someone wanting to profit from someone else's effort. I also think the statements like "I don't want to re-invent the wheel" are just excuses for not wanting to put any effort into creating something or even the exploration. They want to arrive at the destination without actually making the journey.

 

[ed4copies]

Reflecting on tutorials and shows:

When I started making pens over a decade ago, the "tutorial" was a book, usually by Dick Sing (for me). IF I attempted and failed, I bore the cost of that failure - kit costs were about $7 and materials another $3 or so. So, every ruined pen added $10 to my "education cost".

NOw, I turn a pretty decent pen. In contributing to this site, I am already relieving others of the mistakes I made to GET to this level, and the cost I bore in that journey, which was, at least HUNDREDS of dollars in wasted pens.

So, when I make an outstanding pen, it results from my "education" and has a cost that is attached. SO, IF I choose to tell you how to avoid that cost, you should consider the VALUE of the gift you are getting........OR, if I choose NOT to tell you how, you will, most probably have a number of unsuccessful attempts that will make the resulting product more VALUABLE to YOU> In other words, we will BOTH see the resulting pen as being HIGHER PRICED. That means I won't run into you at a craft show, selling it for half my price, cause it HAD no PAIN, to you!

While this is WAY off this thread: I see LOTS of people return to my booth. The "craft show professional shoppers" come early the first morning, SEE every booth (rapidly) and take booth NUMBERS. (I have my business cards available with my booth number on the back-I've played this game!) Those people RETURN to the booths they consider the "best" and buy there. Sorry, if you don't "make the cut".

As always, I PRESENT this as a logical reason, IF you read it as an attack, I truly apologize. It is not my intention to belittle ANYONE!

 

[GaryMGg]

Originally posted by alamocdc

Billy,
My most sincere apologies to you for posting my opinion and opening the floodgates, dragging your wonderful work into a guttered thread.
That's the last thing I'll say in this thread.
Kind regards.
G

 

[alamocdc]

Gary, you owe me no apologies. You simply stated your opinion concerning my decision not to do a tutorial. Others have made their opposing opinion quite plane. And that's okay too. I actually knew that this thread would open a can of worms... Yes, I enjoy stirring the stick on ocassion.[}] Saturday, Ed and I had a discussion concerning some of the issues that have been debated here in the last two days. And his post above details some of the rationale we talked about. There are those who feel no guilt in taking the ideas of others and "competing" with them. More power to 'em, but I cannot function that way. Let's say for example that Dawn actually shared with me how she makes her dichroic glass pen blanks (she hasn't, and I would never ask). Now let's say I find myself in the same show as Ed and Dawn. How would I NOT be competing with them? Denying that is pure rationalization. Period. Ed doesn't want that kind of competition. It takes food off the table. And I don't blame him a bit.

Let me take a moment to share a personal business experience that proves this point. Ten years ago I was one of about 18 miniature custom diecast shops in the country that produced QUALITY diecast customs. Most of us couldn't afford the cost of our own domain back then, but eBay provided us a great place to reach our customers (collectors). This lasted several years until more and more people tried to capitalize on our success. Each shop WAS in competition with the other, but we each had our specialties that appealed to the collectors so things were good. We did real body work on the vehicles, removing casting lines, filling pits, etc. We used rivets quality automotive paints, real rubber tires and rivets to reassemble the vehicle so it was as close to "factory" as possible. But the new kids on the block (so to speak) were producing cheesy computer generated graphics, not changing the tires & wheels, and using epoxy (JB Weld at best) to hold the vehicles together. It only took about three months before the collectors quit buying customs on eBay. The death of the custom shop reaching the collecting multitudes was nearly immediate. Even if they'd dealt with us before, they had been "burned" by the "copiers" and were not willing to risk their hard earned cash for further gambles (in their eyes).

Please note: The point of my example here deals is meant to deal more with competition, than the lack of quality by others that was our demise. AND this is not to say that other penturners who copy something they've seen produce a lesser quality product. My point is that even though the 18 or so shops were competing with each other, we each had our area of specialization that drew in some of the same collectors. For example, one guy was a graphics artist at Disney and produced some of the most awesome flames I've ever seen. Another specialized in the VW Bus. Another specialized in led sleds, etc. The same holds true for SOME penturners. Some have their areas of focus... Ed, Jonathan, Chris Thompson, the Gisis, Eagle, Anthony... the list goes on. And if you replicated what they did and entered the same show you WOULD be competing with them. Would it hurt them? Maybe not, but it might and it could.

Some don't care. They're only in it for themselves. But I can't operate that way. I like to be able to sleep at night and I have to look at my mug every morning when I wash my face and brush my teeth (Hah! You thought I was gonna say shave, didn't you?).

 

[ed4copies]

Nah,

I've seen you. SHAVE isn't in the cards!!

Thanks Billy!

 

[wdcav1952]

This thread has had some interesting twists and turns. One leaves me confused. Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301

 

[gerryr]

Very well said Billy.

 

[DCBluesman]

Originally posted by wdcav1952

Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301

It should be obvious from these two statements, William.

If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.

If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.

It's all about the money and making a return on someone else's work. I find this attitude to be enough to cause me to lose my lunch. Whatever happened to integrity? I guess it's now for sale at craft shows in certain parts of the country. Sheesh!

 

[Tanner]

I for one appreciate the tutorials on this site. I surely don't feel anybody asking for a tutorial is doing anything wrong. If they never asked for a tutorial, we wouldn’t have any in the library. It is however the persons perogative whether to do one or not. My job keeps me working long hours. I get the time to make one maybe two pens per week. I also don’t sell my pens, I just give them away. The tutorials are highly valuable to me. I appreciate every effort that goes into each tutorial. If not for the tutorials all my pens would look like my first one. For me it truly is a valuable gift. Please keep them coming.

Gerry, you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself.[:0]

Originally posted by gerryr

Beyond that I view the requests for tutorials as nothing less than someone wanting to profit from someone else's effort. I also think the statements like "I don't want to re-invent the wheel" are just excuses for not wanting to put any effort into creating something or even the exploration. They want to arrive at the destination without actually making the journey.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=9659

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

There are allot of naive comments in this thread.

Here is a challenge

Name one profitable idea that has not been copied.

 

[gerryr]

That was 3 years ago and since then I have done exactly one such pen. Last I checked, it was still acceptable for people to change their mind based on whatever reason they choose.

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by wdcav1952

This thread has had some interesting twists and turns. One leaves me confused. Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301

Actually, I have turned a couple of pens since that post, but Cathy and her pop are always going to turn more.

I also wouldn't say I'm passionate about the issue, but I think we all participate on this site to get better and to help others, therefore, we should all be 'passionate' about helping one another, in my opinion.

Also, I've never had a problem with a person not sharing information and wouldn't have an issue if any individual decided not to create a tutorial. My only issue in this thread is that the OP's logic seemed off, based on his initial few posts.

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by DCBluesman

Originally posted by wdcav1952

Why is a non-turner so passionate about the subject of tutorials?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32301

It should be obvious from these two statements, William.

If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.

If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.

It's all about the money and making a return on someone else's work. I find this attitude to be enough to cause me to lose my lunch. Whatever happened to integrity? I guess it's now for sale at craft shows in certain parts of the country. Sheesh!

If that's what you believe, then you understand nothing.

You clearly don't understand our motivations for turning pens or selling them. As I aluded to in the post that William referenced, we turn pens to give my stepfather something to do. He's of an age that we were concerned that he was going to basically stop doing anything, sit down in his chair, and die. Therefore, we got him involved with this hobby to give him some reason to get up every morning. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars building him a shop and filling it full of tools. We then had a regular outlay of cash paying for the materials. We sell pens to try to limit the out of pocket cost, not to turn a profit. There will never be 'profit' from this.

Also, I am not going to apologize for learning from others. Similarly, I don't expect anyone to apologize for learning from me. By your twisted logic, anyone that participates in this forum should give up selling pens because they would then be competing with the person that they learned from.

 

[Tanner]

Gerry, all I’m' saying is that some of us that don't have your knowledge and experience may need a little help.

You must have changed your mind in the last 1 1/2 years.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18959&whichpage=2#193659

 

[gerryr]

Sometimes those comments are meant as a joke. I have even said the same to Eagle, because he knows it's a joke.

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

There are allot of naive comments in this thread.

Here is a challenge

Name one profitable idea that has not been copied.

Ron,
You are correct, kind of.

Give me the nearly two decades that Xerox enjoyed a monopoly, due to the patents they held. THEN, you may steal all my technology (as many companies did)! By then, I think I can "live happily ever after" on the several hundred billion in profit.

Penmaking has far fewer "barriers to entry" than copier-making, but the premise is similar. Backward engineering is MUCH EASIER than original thought and creativity. There SHOULD be a reward for the "creative" above and beyond the "copier". (BTW, I am not creative)

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by ed4copies

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

There are allot of naive comments in this thread.

Here is a challenge

Name one profitable idea that has not been copied.

Ron,
You are correct, kind of.

Give me the nearly two decades that Xerox enjoyed a monopoly, due to the patents they held. THEN, you may steal all my technology (as many companies did)! By then, I think I can "live happily ever after" on the several hundred billion in profit.

Penmaking has far fewer "barriers to entry" than copier-making, but the premise is similar. Backward engineering is MUCH EASIER than original thought and creativity. There SHOULD be a reward for the "creative" above and beyond the "copier". (BTW, I am not creative)

I think that everyone respects your work and the position that you are taking. I don't believe that anyone is taking the position that anyone should have to post a tutorial for any method that they'd rather keep to themselves. That being said, I think that you would agree that if a person posted a tutorial, others would be free to learn from it and sell any future work that benefitted from that tutorial. I'm not sure why this idea makes some individuals want to rolf, but I think that they are lying to themselves.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Originally posted by ed4copies

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

There are allot of naive comments in this thread.

Here is a challenge

Name one profitable idea that has not been copied.

Ron,
You are correct, kind of.

Give me the nearly two decades that Xerox enjoyed a monopoly, due to the patents they held. THEN, you may steal all my technology (as many companies did)! By then, I think I can "live happily ever after" on the several hundred billion in profit.

Penmaking has far fewer "barriers to entry" than copier-making, but the premise is similar. Backward engineering is MUCH EASIER than original thought and creativity. There SHOULD be a reward for the "creative" above and beyond the "copier". (BTW, I am not creative)

But who should give "The Reward"?
What should the reward be? 15 minutes of fame? A million dollars?

Look at MP3 players, iPod wasn't the first player on the market and the company that sells iPods was started by three kids in a garage that took off-the-shelf electronic parts and hobbled them together on a circuit board.

Every picture that we post of something we turned will be copied, its a fact of life. And almost all of the "New" ideas where created from old ideas.

Bottom line is this:
Woodturners of all kinds are the most generous people I know when it comes to sharing ideas, more generous than any other vocation/hobby around. Even if turners don't write tutorials, they will still will help other turners figure things out. How great is that?

 

[DCBluesman]

Originally posted by sbell111

You clearly don't understand our motivations for turning pens or selling them.

I'm not sure why this idea makes some individuals want to rolf, but I think that they are lying to themselves.

Well, Steve, you are as entitled to an opinion as any one.

I understand your motivation in starting pen turning may have been to give your father in law something to do, but your words since then have proven that you absolutely intend to take ideas that are profitable and not yours and to then profit from them. Whether or not you are capable of producing a profit a profit does not change your motive. Your double-talk does not change your words or the meaning. I don't pretend to understand your wife's reasons or your father-in-law's reasons, but your words tell their own story. As for my comment regarding losing my lunch, I stand by it. You motivation to copy from others for your own personal gain and/or aggrandizement is nauseating to me.

As for tutorials, I would dare say I have contributed plenty to this community in terms of tips and tutorials. I do not mind sharing and, in fact, I enjoy it. I do mind the sulf-indulgent attitude of a few mis-directed individuals who think copying the work of another is an acceptable practice. I further mind the all-too-common attitude that tutorials are somehow a right. The prevalent attitude of a few over-zealous proselytizers is a large reason for many of our seasoned veterans ceasing to post. We get sick and tired of reading the rantings from a tiny but vocal minority of self-important individuals who feel that membership comes with entitlements.

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by Tanner

Gerry, all I’m' saying is that some of us that don't have your knowledge and experience may need a little help.

You must have changed your mind in the last 1 1/2 years.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18959&whichpage=2#193659

Tanner, I am sure you just forgot to read the first page of the thread you posted the link to. On that page you would note that Curtis, the original poster stated that he was working on a tutorial. That puts Gerry's comment in a somewhat different context as he was commenting on a tutorial already promised rather than the way you spun the reference.

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by DCBluesman

Originally posted by sbell111

You clearly don't understand our motivations for turning pens or selling them.

I'm not sure why this idea makes some individuals want to rolf, but I think that they are lying to themselves.

Well, Steve, you are as entitled to an opinion as any one.

I understand your motivation in starting pen turning may have been to give your father in law something to do, but your words since then have proven that you absolutely intend to take ideas that are profitable and not yours and to then profit from them. Whether or not you are capable of producing a profit a profit does not change your motive. Your double-talk does not change your words or the meaning. I don't pretend to understand your wife's reasons or your father-in-law's reasons, but your words tell their own story. As for my comment regarding losing my lunch, I stand by it. You motivation to copy from others for your own personal gain and/or aggrandizement is nauseating to me.

As for tutorials, I would dare say I have contributed plenty to this community in terms of tips and tutorials. I do not mind sharing and, in fact, I enjoy it. I do mind the sulf-indulgent attitude of a few mis-directed individuals who think copying the work of another is an acceptable practice. I further mind the all-too-common attitude that tutorials are somehow a right. The prevalent attitude of a few over-zealous proselytizers is a large reason for many of our seasoned veterans ceasing to post. We get sick and tired of reading the rantings from a tiny but vocal minority of self-important individuals who feel that membership comes with entitlements.

Clearly, you have chosen to read more into my posts than is actually there. I suspect that you already had a chip on your shoulder and now you are trying to mold my posts to fit your preconceptions. I suggest that rather than doing this, you simply read the posts. There's no hidden meaning.

Also, before you call other people self-important, over-zealous, misdirected, et al, I suggest that you read your own posts. You probably will need some compazine after wading through that dreck.

 

[ldb2000]

Can't we all just get along [}]

 

[Sfolivier]

Listen, at this point, I barely remember who made the pen. I totally don't remember who's accused of being selfish, who's accused of stealing ideas or who is what. Unless you really have an outcome in mind, could you just stop this discussion? Before you pick a fight, you should always ask yourself why you're doing so and what you are fighting for. I don't see any point to this thread anymore and would even like to see it closed.

It's pretty clear that nobody's idea will prevail, that nobody will look worse than the other and that nobody will have an epiphany. Can't we just stop this B.S. now? You're all starting to look bad. If anything, you owe it to our host who is trying to run a forum about woodworking. Not a forum about pointless arguments between people of the same trade, or at least with the same hobby.

 

[alamocdc]

This has now become the thread that just wouldn't die. Everyone who has posted has their opinions and that isn't about to change any time soon. You all know where I stand. And after receiving a phone call from an old friend tonight, I'm even more steadfast. To that end, I'm requesting that the moderators lock this thread. Further rattling of swords will not bring anything but more rhetoric and useless banter.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Some folks just don't know when to stop. I am sorry I am having to lock another thread here at IAP.