Making a Pro Team pen

[Rollerbob]

Prolly been mentioned before but had a request for a Texas Ranger pen. Am I subject to copyright laws or other legal matters?

 

[mrcook4570]

Both the name and logo are owned by MLB. One must be licensed by MLB in order to use them.

 

[alphageek]

Personally, I would recommend doing something in colors that "remind you of" or resemble the team. I know there is people here that can match colors.

However doing a team name or logo could be a dangerous thing and not worth the risk.

 

[skiprat]

I think this has been mentioned before and IIRC then the consensus was that if you used an item of theirs, like a sticker or badge, and then cast it, it would be ok. But if you made something to LOOK like theirs and sold it as authentic then you could 'potentially' be in trouble.

But I honestly think that unless you were going to mass produce something then nobody would care.

 

[bitshird]

[size=+10]Don't Even Think About It​

[/size]

[size=+5]They can and will sue you[/size]
[size=-12]but you can't get blood out of a turnip[/size]
just do a Bernie Madoff and give all your assets to your sweetheart!!!
:clown::clown::clown:​

 

[NewLondon88]

but you can't get blood out of a turnip

I tried that line with the IRS once. They sent back a note that said

"Yes We Can"

AFAIK, (as mentioned) if you bought a licensed product and cast it yourself,
there is no violation. If you duplicate it, this is a violation. Will it be
prosecuted? Hard to say. You may not show up on their radar.

I recall seeing a case where the NFL sued a church for taping the game and
showing it an hour later because church services interfered with viewing
or something along those lines. I would have thought that one would be
below the radar, too.. so who knows?

 

[Rollerbob]

Maybe I'll just order one from the Rangers, mark it up and sell it him, huh?

 

[skiprat]

Maybe I'll just order one from the Rangers, mark it up and sell it him, huh?

Oh don't be a chicken!!!!:biggrin:

 

[Rollerbob]

Oh don't be a chicken!!!!:biggrin:

Easy for you to say!:biggrin: I'll just tell them some guy from the other side of the pond made it. Full address, please!!:tongue:

 

[DCBluesman]

Yes, it is infringement. Even casting a sticker can be considered infringement. Not all trademark owners are picky about one-ofs, but some (MontBlanc) get downright offensive.

For trademarks which are considered to be well known, infringing use may occur where the use occurs in relation to products or services which are not the same as or similar to the products or services in relation to which the owner's mark is registered.

 

[GouletPens]

You're walking a fine line here, certainly nothing you would do with the intention of copying the team's overall brand you should feel 100% secure about it unless you're licensed. Chances are they won't catch you, and chances are it's not going to bite you, but if you are purposely making a product with the intention of representing the team and you don't have their consent, then you're infringing no matter how you try to justify it.

If I knew I could sell a pen to one of my customers under the Heritage Pen brand and I did it without Lou's permission, I might get away with it but bottom line is I'm selling a pen using all of the hard work Lou's put in to make his brand known. That's just not fair to Lou. Now, with a pro team like that you can say they're so big and they won't miss the money or desensitize it however you like, but bottom line is someone has put the work into building a brand and they want to make sure the products sold with their name on it represents the brand like they wanted. I went through the licensing process with Virginia Tech, so I have a great respect for those who do legit licensing work! I would never intentionally make a work to go around a trademark licensing....it's just not right. Just think if someone out there was selling pens under your name without your permission and without you getting compensated...you'd be pissed!

 

[workinforwood]

Yes, it's illegal. Do what Bill Clinton taught me..deny deny deny! :biggrin:

 

[rjwolfe3]

I thought that was lie lie lie.

 

[Rollerbob]

You're walking a fine line here, certainly nothing you would do with the intention of copying the team's overall brand you should feel 100% secure about it unless you're licensed. Chances are they won't catch you, and chances are it's not going to bite you, but if you are purposely making a product with the intention of representing the team and you don't have their consent, then you're infringing no matter how you try to justify it.

If I knew I could sell a pen to one of my customers under the Heritage Pen brand and I did it without Lou's permission, I might get away with it but bottom line is I'm selling a pen using all of the hard work Lou's put in to make his brand known. That's just not fair to Lou. Now, with a pro team like that you can say they're so big and they won't miss the money or desensitize it however you like, but bottom line is someone has put the work into building a brand and they want to make sure the products sold with their name on it represents the brand like they wanted. I went through the licensing process with Virginia Tech, so I have a great respect for those who do legit licensing work! I would never intentionally make a work to go around a trademark licensing....it's just not right. Just think if someone out there was selling pens under your name without your permission and without you getting compensated...you'd be pissed!

Totally agree with your statement.:wink: Making pens for me is certainly a sideline hobbie. I just wasn't sure how it was viewed by pro teams. I can assure you it ain't worth gambling to make a few bucks to face the deep pockets of some pro team!

 

[Rojo22]

I do want to ask those who are in the know. If I buy a sticker that is licensed, do I have the right to put the sticker on whatever I like? And then cannot I sell the item that I affixed it to? If I do this with a sticker and a pen, could I do it with a car and a bumper sticker? I bought the sticker, and am selling a pen, which happens to have a sticker on/in it. I paid the proper price and have a licensed product, so I dont understand the rub there. Of course I am not a lawyer, who probably could fabricate whatever case they wanted to with enough money......

 

[GouletPens]

I do want to ask those who are in the know. If I buy a sticker that is licensed, do I have the right to put the sticker on whatever I like? And then cannot I sell the item that I affixed it to? If I do this with a sticker and a pen, could I do it with a car and a bumper sticker? I bought the sticker, and am selling a pen, which happens to have a sticker on/in it. I paid the proper price and have a licensed product, so I dont understand the rub there. Of course I am not a lawyer, who probably could fabricate whatever case they wanted to with enough money......

I'm no lawyer nor am I giving legal advice, but I'd say you're still violating the licensing. Yes, you can buy that sticker and put it on whatever you want. HOWEVER, if you're buying that sticker and reselling it for a profit, then you'll most likely need to be licensed. The key here is the selling, not the making. You can make whatever licensed product you want and keep it for yourself in your house with no trouble(I think). But if you sell anything that's licensed, whether you made it or bought it from someone else, you need to be licensed. After all, you think the sticker you bought was actually made by the person you bought it from? No, it probably came from China! The person reselling it has to be licensed, so if you're selling a pen using that sticker you most likely need to be licensed as well.

This is where you might need to find out the license rules for the individual team. If you sell your car and it has an NFL sticker on it, does that make it an NFL licensed car? You're in the grey area here, so more research might need to be done on a case by case basis. All in all though, I'd say don't bother. When you're treading on thin ice like this, you're almost hoping you don't sell many of these pens because you're increasing your legal exposure with the sale of every pen. I say, why put your efforts into developing a product that's success is going to open you up to legal action?

 

[rjwolfe3]

I am wondering if you make such a pen for your own personal use but not for sale and put it on your website under your gallery, can they come after you for copyright infringement?

 

[Phunky_2003]

For copyright infringement I believe you are safe if you make it for yourself. Or even if you make it for a gift. However this falls into another category. This is a trademark your dealing with and a whole different set of laws and regulations. I wouldnt even post the pen on my site if I made one. I believe you'd still be liable for unathorized use of there trademark by posting the pen.

However Rollerbob you can get around it by using the team colors. Colors and fonts are not copywritten or trademarked.

And I haven't done this but there is a scroller who has and carries the licenses with him. He contacts high schools and gets a license for the school. He then makes stuff under those. I wouldn't have the gumption to try anything like that though. Some just dont care I guess.

James

 

[skiprat]

I just found this on the web. I would love us to find a definitive answer as this really is an interesting topic:biggrin:




Quote;
The first sale doctrine allows purchasers of copyrighted material to sell that which they have purchased without violating the copyright laws. The theory here is similar to that of the exhaustion doctrine in patent law. The copyright owner must derive all revenue from the so-called first sale, and cannot control the future disposition of the article originally sold.
Under a strict reading of the copyright bundle of rights, selling or distributing a copy of a work that is covered by a valid copyright is an infringement. The problem arises in this scenario. You purchase a book that is copyright protected. You read the book and now have no use for the book. You sell the book. By completing the sale you have distributed a copy of a work that is covered by a valid copyright. If it were not for the first sale doctrine what you just did would be copyright infringement; namely distributing a copyrighted work without the permission of the copyright owner.
The key to understanding the first sale doctrine is to know that the copyright owner only has right to prevent others from copying and distributing (for free or for profit) copies of a work covered by a valid copyright. In the above example there has been no copying and, therefore, no infringement. You have taken what you purchased and transferred all right, title and interest to another. The copyright owner cannot stop this. The key, however, is that there has been no copying.
End quote;

So if the above is true, then it seems to me that if I bought a NFL pro team sticker from them, I would be entitled to clear cast it on a pen tube and sell it. Of course, I'm sure that I would have to be careful how I named it. If I said that it was ' An authentic Pro team pen' then obviously I would be lying and commiting an offence. However, if I said it was a 'Pen with authentic pro team sticker cast inside' then I'd be ok.
If I COPIED the image from the net without paying for it then that too would be illegal.
If I created an image similar to the same sticker, like segmenting etc, then I guess it would depend on how I sold it.
We regulary sell cartridge pens with the manufacturer clearly still visible and no-one says anything.
If I bought a nib from Lou and just cast it as a paperweight, then I surely all I would have to say was that it it is what it is?

 

[NewLondon88]

So if the above is true, then it seems to me that if I bought a NFL pro team sticker from them, I would be entitled to clear cast it on a pen tube and sell it. Of course, I'm sure that I would have to be careful how I named it. If I said that it was ' An authentic Pro team pen' then obviously I would be lying and commiting an offence. However, if I said it was a 'Pen with authentic pro team sticker cast inside' then I'd be ok.
If I COPIED the image from the net without paying for it then that too would be illegal.
If I created an image similar to the same sticker, like segmenting etc, then I guess it would depend on how I sold it.

That wouldn't come under copyright law, but under Trademark infringement
which is a separate issue.. and the law has lots more bite to it.

We regulary sell cartridge pens with the manufacturer clearly still visible and no-one says anything.

That's covered under 'first sale' doctrine. You have paid for the product,
and what you do with it is up to you.

If I bought a nib from Lou and just cast it as a paperweight, then I surely all I would have to say was that it it is what it is?

I don't even know that you'd have to say anything, but you couldn't
represent the new product as having his endorsement unless he
specifically says so.

 

[jkeithrussell]

Colors and fonts are protected under a weird area of intellectual property known as "trade dress" which basically protects a team's ownership over its colors, logo, and font (among others). Be very careful here as all pro sports franchises are very aggressive about protecting their intellectual property rights. From what I have read, I don't think there would be a problem in making a pen in a certain team's colors. But, there would be a problem if you were selling the pen as "Dallas Cowboys Team Colors Rollerball!" Any use of the colors in conjunction with the team name or logo will get you a cease and desist letter.

Edit to add: For your reading pleasure, Google "intellectual property trade dress."

 

[Rollerbob]

That wouldn't come under copyright law, but under Trademark infringement
which is a separate issue.. and the law has lots more bite to it.



That's covered under 'first sale' doctrine. You have paid for the product,
and what you do with it is up to you.



I don't even know that you'd have to say anything, but you couldn't
represent the new product as having his endorsement unless he
specifically says so.

What Skip was saying began to make sense!:wink: But after your reply, I'm not so sure. How could buying say a NFL logo and casting it not come under first sale? It now belongs to you to do as you see fit. Maybe you tire of it just like buying said book. Of course you are modifying the logo, which may be where the gray line begins!:redface:

 

[bkersten]

Colors and fonts are protected under a weird area of intellectual property known as "trade dress" which basically protects a team's ownership over its colors, logo, and font (among others). Be very careful here as all pro sports franchises are very aggressive about protecting their intellectual property rights. From what I have read, I don't think there would be a problem in making a pen in a certain team's colors. But, there would be a problem if you were selling the pen as "Dallas Cowboys Team Colors Rollerball!" Any use of the colors in conjunction with the team name or logo will get you a cease and desist letter.

Edit to add: For your reading pleasure, Google "intellectual property trade dress."

Here's a little description of it.
http://www.edisoninventors.org/nl_articles/using_trade_dress.pdf

 

[Rollerbob]

[/color]


Here's a little description of it.
http://www.edisoninventors.org/nl_articles/using_trade_dress.pdf

Bob, very interesting read, thanks!!:wink:

 

[GouletPens]

What Skip was saying began to make sense!:wink: But after your reply, I'm not so sure. How could buying say a NFL logo and casting it not come under first sale? It now belongs to you to do as you see fit. Maybe you tire of it just like buying said book. Of course you are modifying the logo, which may be where the gray line begins!:redface:

I think this is where the first sale might not apply anymore....if you alter the licensed product you purchased to then sell another product under the trademark of the organization, I think the organization's team of lawyers could argue that's not a 'first sale' anymore, b/c it's a new product. Like with my VT pens, if I made and pen and stuck a VT sticker on it and sold it as a VT pen, I think the school would have a problem with that.

 

[Rollerbob]

I think this is where the first sale might not apply anymore....if you alter the licensed product you purchased to then sell another product under the trademark of the organization, I think the organization's team of lawyers could argue that's not a 'first sale' anymore, b/c it's a new product. Like with my VT pens, if I made and pen and stuck a VT sticker on it and sold it as a VT pen, I think the school would have a problem with that.

Yup, think I answered my own question with the last sentence. Still interesting why someone would want you to make a pen with a Trademark Logo, or for that matter any Trademark item. Why not just buy from them, unless of course they are looking for a cheap knock off!! Which again, I think I just answered my own question, geez!:frown:

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Go for it Bob!!!! Live a little (dangerously:biggrin If you get caught, be good and they will shorten your parole.:wink:

 

[GouletPens]

Yup, think I answered my own question with the last sentence. Still interesting why someone would want you to make a pen with a Trademark Logo, or for that matter any Trademark item. Why not just buy from them, unless of course they are looking for a cheap knock off!! Which again, I think I just answered my own question, geez!:frown:

As the customer, there's no legal implication for them with you making a trademarked item. Most people just don't really think about it.

 

[NewLondon88]

What Skip was saying began to make sense!:wink: But after your reply, I'm not so sure. How could buying say a NFL logo and casting it not come under first sale? It now belongs to you to do as you see fit.

Exactly. First sale covers just that .. the first sale. Once you buy it, they
cannot control it anymore.