Lets Discuss

[jttheclockman]

I know at times this can become one of those tempered discussions and has in the past but a new spin on it. I constantly see not only here but on FB and ebay and other places people making tons and tons of blanks to sell. hey go for it.

But here is my problem. I see and I am not mentioning names so do not PM me. I see people making blanks with sports logos, military logos, disney logos and this includes watch part pens too, brand name decals, even Harley logos, school logos and so on. The copyright question always comes up in these situations and I still am not clear on the legal ramifications on the use of these logos but with that said. Say a person gets the licence or letter of clearance from whatever company to go ahead and make the blanks and now sells them.

Now you go and buy them and make your pens and now sell the pens. What legal right do you have??? Some of these companies such as Disney and Harley Davidson are extremely protective of their names. I have seen this first hand at a couple craft shows where items were made using the names and brands and they were told to cease selling them right there.


The seller of the blanks got the clearance but you do not. Has anyone encountered anything like this and if so please share your story. Would be nice to have cold hard facts and not guesses. Hope it is understood what I am asking. Have a good day.

 

[Edgar]

Well, I'm no lawyer & I don't play one on TV, so my opinions aren't worth much.

However, if a blank maker has clearance to make blanks with a trademarked name or logo, I would presume that said company's lawyers would also have asked enough questions about the use of those marks to realize that the blank itself is not the final, intended use of the marks - what would the purpose of that be?

So, my take on it is if the blank maker has clearance, then I should be able to use that blank to make the intended end product of that blank.

But, like I said - what do I know?

 

[jttheclockman]

Well, I'm no lawyer & I don't play one on TV, so my opinions aren't worth much.

However, if a blank maker has clearance to make blanks with a trademarked name or logo, I would presume that said company's lawyers would also have asked enough questions about the use of those marks to realize that the blank itself is not the final, intended use of the marks - what would the purpose of that be?

So, my take on it is if the blank maker has clearance, then I should be able to use that blank to make the intended end product of that blank.

But, like I said - what do I know?

Well Edgar I am like you I have no idea and that is why I asked because I see more and more people taking liberties with this trademark logo stuff. It is like and this has been bantered about here to with watch part pens. The watch face was intended for one purpose but you are now using it for something else, do the same rules apply or does it fall under a junk watch or steampunk material. Confusing. Maybe it comes down to do it until you get caught.

 

[duncsuss]

John --

No disrespect intended, but you're asking this question in the wrong place.

Try on a forum of trademark and/or intellectual property rights lawyers if you want an answer based in law rather than speculation.

 

[Edgar]

It seems to me that this is two separate issues:

One is the case where a blank maker has a license or other authorization to use a mark to make pen blanks. In that case, it seems evident that the intended end product containing that mark would be a pen rather than the blank itself.

The case of repurposing a product containing a licensed mark is a little different. I personally think that using such a product (say a watch dial) should be allowed since it's still a watch dial, just on a different medium. (Some lawyers may disagree though ). However, if one is careful to dissociate themselves from the mark's owner and it's clear that there is no attempt to defraud, the worst you would likely incur would be a cease & desist letter. Printing your own logos & marks is a different story though - that could result in a demand letter with more teeth than a simple cease & desist order.

(Again just my humble opinions based on many years in business and dealing with such things on an occasional basis from both sides - not a legal opinion at all.)

 

[CREID]

John --

No disrespect intended, but you're asking this question in the wrong place.

Try on a forum of trademark and/or intellectual property rights lawyers if you want an answer based in law rather than speculation.

I would think this would be a perfect place to ask. If someone got permission to use a trademarked logo to make a blank specifically to sell to someone that is going to make something else with it and possibly sell IT, they better know when the person who purchases it and makes something with it and sells it they have the right. If the person making the blank hasn't gotten permission for all that they are leaving themselves open from both ends.

Now for all you out there celebrating Cinco de Mayo, say all of the above 3 times fast.

 

[jimmyz]

Based on my experience, you better be careful when using a copyrighted symbol on a pen blank. I've been to many craft fairs, where vendors have college team logos on birdhouses, etc. They all have told me they need to have permission/license to do so. Don't get yourself in trouble selling a $15 pen blank.

 

[alphageek]

John,

I'm afraid you're asking a question that won't be too many GOOD answers for. Most of the blanks in question that you are talking about I can pretty much guarantee do NOT have permission. I'm talking specifically about logo ones (sports, vehicles, disney - etc) don't give out that permission often, nor is it cheap!!!

If those blanks were being sold with permission, I guarantee that the seller would be telling people exactly how that permission extends to them as it would be a huge bonus to their sales. I'm afraid that people are just lucky to stay below the radar.

 

[showcaser]

As long as the seller of the blanks is licensed and is licensed to wholesale products he makes,you should be covered. When asked about your products by the trademark people you tell them where you got the the licensed blanks. They have a list of licensees . I was licensed to use the Air Force Logo on my products and as long as I let the USAF Trademark office know I could do wholesale. I let my license go as it was not profitable with all the insurance requirements involved. Thats what it was like with Military trademarks. Yes ALL military logos are trademarked not public domain.
Patrick

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Have you ever found a blank maker that had permission to sell blanks with logos on them? I'd say that that part alone is unlikely..

 

[Indiana_Parrothead]

i am going to throw another twist into this. I understand that finding artwork of any kind on the Internet and making a decal of it and making that into a pen is going over the line as far as trademark infringement. But what about buying a pack of stickers or decals that are licensed and using those to make into a pen?

Mike

 

[showcaser]

This would be a good place to start for USAF Air Force Trademark and Licensing Program - License Holders
ultimately you need to do your own due diligence ....after all it's your butt on the line.
Patrick

 

[jttheclockman]

John --

No disrespect intended, but you're asking this question in the wrong place.

Try on a forum of trademark and/or intellectual property rights lawyers if you want an answer based in law rather than speculation.

I ask this question here because I see blanks that are in question being sold. I was looking for someone who may have run into a situation and no better place than to ask on a penturning site like this. That is the way I see it.

Based on my experience, you better be careful when using a copyrighted symbol on a pen blank. I've been to many craft fairs, where vendors have college team logos on birdhouses, etc. They all have told me they need to have permission/license to do so. Don't get yourself in trouble selling a $15 pen blank.

As I mentioned I have seen this first hand also at craft shows for other things not pen related. Seen a lady who made pillows and blankets from Disney material sold in fabric stores asked to cease and desist right there. She had to close her entire booth. Saw other things as well.

Have you ever found a blank maker that had permission to sell blanks with logos on them? I'd say that that part alone is unlikely..

There are those advertising as such. Just not sure how far they are allowed to go. Now I see on the link that was provided on the military stuff, I see a couple names I recognize and I see they claim to sell pens and I suppose that is how they get around this. But again that is their end. But what about further down the chain. Remembering suppliers names may present a problem unless you are very diligent with it.


Maybe as Edgar says this is two different questions and you can not lump them together. One maybe more legit than the other. Anyway it is food for thought. I do not sell blanks but will make a few pens that have brand name items and probably will end up selling them. May have to just take my chances and play dumb. I am good at that

 

[pianomanpj]

HUT Products sells dome and foil logos of well-known companies for their pens, so either they or their supplier must have a license. Therefore, I would think that the license would extend to the end-user. I'm no lawyer, but I couldn't imagine HUT being able to sell these otherwise.

 

[Smitty37]

With the USA graduating twice as many lawyers and half as many doctors as we need as a nation this can be a problem. Colleges and Universities seem to have an outside organization that has the job of protecting their rights to certain trademarks. I forget the name of it but that is what they do.

It's a fuzzy section of law and many of the cases get decided on specific details of the use - a famous case is one that Disney lost regarding the use of licensed yard goods to make pillow cases (I think) for sale. The courts ruled that such a use did not violate Disney's trade mark protections.

There are also a lot of fuzzy area's regarding whether trade marks apply nationally or are limited to a smaller area. A business can have a trade mark that is protected locally but if someone opens a business using the same thing some distance away their use might have the same protection in their area.

Also their can be an issue of who used it first - If someone is already using the trade marked item when the trade mark is issued, they probably retain their right to use it.

However, all that being said, if I bought one blank from a person who has the legal right to sell it, there is no question that I can use it for it's intended purpose, which would include the right to sell it. Whether the same rule would apply if I bought 100 of the blanks would probably depend on the licensing agreement the blank maker has.

I suspect the internet gives them fits because the shear number of violators make it almost impossible to stop all of them. Particularly when many of them will be located, and shipping from, outside the USA. And, business names are so easy to change.