Jerryconn
Member
please educate me about this. what is the drawbar and it's use in drilling on the lathe.
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please educate me about this. what is the drawbar and it's use in drilling on the lathe.
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wood-of-1kind
Member
I'm open to a donation.
-Peter-
bjackman
Member
Jerry,
A drawbar is a threaded shaft used to hold the tool in place during turning. The inside end of the MT has a female thread machined into it. A long threaded shaft or bolt is then screwed into the MT, going all the way through the headstock. a washer and nut are screwed onto the other end, snugging it down into the MT of the headstock and locking it in place. Hope that helps.
Peter, how did I know there would be those willing to help me out with my theoretical problem. [
]
A drawbar is a threaded shaft used to hold the tool in place during turning. The inside end of the MT has a female thread machined into it. A long threaded shaft or bolt is then screwed into the MT, going all the way through the headstock. a washer and nut are screwed onto the other end, snugging it down into the MT of the headstock and locking it in place. Hope that helps.
Peter, how did I know there would be those willing to help me out with my theoretical problem. [
]
Jerryconn
Member
That helps, Thanks Bill
woodmarc
Member
Interesting discussion! Man I love this group. []
OK! I'm coming in from the cold and am going to buy a collet chuck. Now, Which one? [?][?]
I have read through the posts and have the following questions;
1. What are the ER ratings? and why are they important?
2. Looking at the design of the collets, there appears that,by design, there is some compensation for variances in thickness of the item being chucked, or am I wrong in this assumption. With this assumption, I would only need the 1/4" collet to start with? and this would allow me to use either the Berea or PSI mandrel in the same collet?
I am leaning towards the Beall because it does not use a taper. But I like the price on the WC system. 80 bucks complete.
Thanks
] OK! I'm coming in from the cold and am going to buy a collet chuck. Now, Which one? [?][?]
I have read through the posts and have the following questions;
1. What are the ER ratings? and why are they important?
2. Looking at the design of the collets, there appears that,by design, there is some compensation for variances in thickness of the item being chucked, or am I wrong in this assumption. With this assumption, I would only need the 1/4" collet to start with? and this would allow me to use either the Berea or PSI mandrel in the same collet?
I am leaning towards the Beall because it does not use a taper. But I like the price on the WC system. 80 bucks complete.
Thanks
I reccomend the Beall or anything that will thread onto your lathe's heqad stock.
ER32 is the "Style" of collets.
!/4" collet will get you atarted if you want to use it for a mandrel.
I would also get a 3/4" collet.
I use a wooden"collet" inside the beall when I drll my shell casing pens.
In other words with the smallest and largest collets you can always make your own inserts that won't mar the piece you are working on.
ER32 is the "Style" of collets.
!/4" collet will get you atarted if you want to use it for a mandrel.
I would also get a 3/4" collet.
I use a wooden"collet" inside the beall when I drll my shell casing pens.
In other words with the smallest and largest collets you can always make your own inserts that won't mar the piece you are working on.
bjackman
Member
I also recommend the Beall.
Woodcraft http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5352
downsides: MT2 instead of threaded, (see my post above about the use of drawbars), limited availability of collets, (may actually be a proprietary size, according to my local wc manager)and the ones that come in the set leave gaps in the holding range and only go up to 5/8 inch (I use larger than that constantly).
Positive: reasonable price for whole set, comes in a decent case to keep everything together.
Axminister Jr. http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?preadd=action&key=014-0040
Downsides: uses er25 collets limiting you to maximum of 5/8 inch holding capability, must knock out the collet from inside the chuck with a knockout rod through the headstock.
Positive: Comes from a trusted name in tools, nice shape allowing good tool access
Beall: http://www.woodchipshome.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WC&Product_Code=BEALLCCKIT&Category_Code=GRBU
Downsides: Price is higher (check with tangboy, many of us got ours from him on a group buy for a killer deal! THANKS!!!) larger more blunt end making some tool access more difficult close in to the chuck.
Positive: Comes from a trusted name in tools, er32 collets available in 18 sizes up to 3/4 inch. (can be had on ebay in sets for a better price than individually through supply houses) very versitile for holding/chucking a large range of sizes, mine runs very accurate, (haven't meaured the runout, others have but I don't remember what they said.)
Hope this helps. I got a 12 piece collet set and have a few small gaps between sizes. I have only found one pin chuck I couldn't hold and was able to remedy the problem with a small section of craft paper wrapped about 95% around the pin chuck which gave it enough extra girth to hold and kept things still spinning very concentric.
If all you ever plan to use it for is running mandrels for pens you would only need the 1/4 collet for the standard mandrel and the 5/16 for the Berea B mandrel. In that case cheaper would probably be better, but you may still need to deal with the drawbar issue with the woodcraft model.
Woodcraft http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5352
downsides: MT2 instead of threaded, (see my post above about the use of drawbars), limited availability of collets, (may actually be a proprietary size, according to my local wc manager)and the ones that come in the set leave gaps in the holding range and only go up to 5/8 inch (I use larger than that constantly).
Positive: reasonable price for whole set, comes in a decent case to keep everything together.
Axminister Jr. http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cgi-bin/shopper?preadd=action&key=014-0040
Downsides: uses er25 collets limiting you to maximum of 5/8 inch holding capability, must knock out the collet from inside the chuck with a knockout rod through the headstock.
Positive: Comes from a trusted name in tools, nice shape allowing good tool access
Beall: http://www.woodchipshome.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WC&Product_Code=BEALLCCKIT&Category_Code=GRBU
Downsides: Price is higher (check with tangboy, many of us got ours from him on a group buy for a killer deal! THANKS!!!) larger more blunt end making some tool access more difficult close in to the chuck.
Positive: Comes from a trusted name in tools, er32 collets available in 18 sizes up to 3/4 inch. (can be had on ebay in sets for a better price than individually through supply houses) very versitile for holding/chucking a large range of sizes, mine runs very accurate, (haven't meaured the runout, others have but I don't remember what they said.)
Hope this helps. I got a 12 piece collet set and have a few small gaps between sizes. I have only found one pin chuck I couldn't hold and was able to remedy the problem with a small section of craft paper wrapped about 95% around the pin chuck which gave it enough extra girth to hold and kept things still spinning very concentric.
If all you ever plan to use it for is running mandrels for pens you would only need the 1/4 collet for the standard mandrel and the 5/16 for the Berea B mandrel. In that case cheaper would probably be better, but you may still need to deal with the drawbar issue with the woodcraft model.
Randy_
Member
The ER32 collets used by the Beall chuck have a grip range of 1 mm in the metric sizes and 1/32" in U.S. sizes.
Randy_
Member
Are you sure about the above information?? Where did it come from??
According to the Axminster web site, their Jr chuck uses ER20 collets and will only handle stock up to 1/2" in diameter.
You are not the first person to suggest the Jr chuck uses the ER25 collet. Sure would be nice to find out where this information is coming from.
Maybe we can solve this if someone out there can measure one of their Axminster collets??
Dimensions should be:
ER20 collet: Diameter = 21 mm(0.83"), Length = 31.5 mm(1.24")
ER25 collet: Diameter = 26 mm(1.02"), Length = 34 mm(1.34")
alamocdc
Member
Marc, I too reccommend the Beall. I use mine regularly.
gerryr
Member
When I ordered my first Jr. Emperor kits, I ordered a Beall chuck from Charles(Tangboy) shortly thereafter. I knew all the problems my mandrels created and was somewhat used to dealing with them, but I wasn't going to take chances with Jr. Emperors. I now turn only one barrel at a time using the Beall and the results are like night and day from what I got with the mandrels. I take each barrel as far as applying two coats of thin CA. After both barrels are to that point, I switch back to the mandrel with both barrels mounted to finish it off. I would never use a mandrel for turning again. The Beall will also allow me to do things like turn custom finials for Barons that I couldn't do before.
bjackman
Member
Randy,
I was going purely from memory when I stated the Ax jr. uses er25 collets. If their site says er20 I would go by that. To me that weighs even more in favor of the Beall.
I was going purely from memory when I stated the Ax jr. uses er25 collets. If their site says er20 I would go by that. To me that weighs even more in favor of the Beall.
johnnycnc
Member
I bought the Woodcraft collet chuck set
about 2 weeks ago(long story and rant),turned a few pens using it.
I was reasonably happy with results.
Reading all this,a couple folks wanted to hear results
from someone who has it.
(insert long blah-blah from me);<s>here is a link
(I did NOT want to take up a page and a half here)
to photo gallery http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=39303449708.435609412108.1157673229124&page=1
try "slideshow" and.</s>
Sorry,edited.
go to my photos,"lathe" gallery,
look for comments on photo ,each one.
Hopefully each photo is "nuff said"[}]
If you guys and gals want the full blah-blah,
ask and don't complain!(I can go on). [)][)]
if this is not relevant or my place,
let me know and i'll delete this.
Thanks
about 2 weeks ago(long story and rant),turned a few pens using it.
I was reasonably happy with results.
Reading all this,a couple folks wanted to hear results
from someone who has it.
(insert long blah-blah from me);<s>here is a link
(I did NOT want to take up a page and a half here)
to photo gallery http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=39303449708.435609412108.1157673229124&page=1
try "slideshow" and.</s>
Sorry,edited.
go to my photos,"lathe" gallery,
look for comments on photo ,each one.
Hopefully each photo is "nuff said"[}
]If you guys and gals want the full blah-blah,
ask and don't complain!(I can go on). [
)][)] if this is not relevant or my place,
let me know and i'll delete this.
Thanks
Randy_
Member
http://www.penturners.org/forum/photo_album_view.asp?cname=lathe&mid=2413&cid=3344
Let's see if this works.....IAP album??
Let's see if this works.....IAP album??
woodmarc
Member
Taking all things into consideration, Most especially due the pictures from John(johnycnc). []
The idea of mounting directly to the lathe, and not having to use the MT just makes better sense.
While I am relatively new to this whole thing, Beall seems to be a name that is trusted.
Now where to get it????
Thanks to all for a most spirited discussion, as well as a most enlightening one.
[][][]
]The idea of mounting directly to the lathe, and not having to use the MT just makes better sense.
While I am relatively new to this whole thing, Beall seems to be a name that is trusted.
Now where to get it????
Thanks to all for a most spirited discussion, as well as a most enlightening one.
[
][][]
Randy_
Member
Marc: Far as I know, this is the best place to get a Beall chuck.
http://www.woodchipshome.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=WC&Category_Code=CHU
The best deal, to date, is to buy the chuck at Woodchips and then go to the eBay and buy a set of 11 collets(ER32)(1/8" thru 3/4" in 1/16" increments) from a seller by the name of 800watt(?) for about $50.( a set of 5 purchased with the chuck will cost about $75.) According to some who have done this, the guy is a little difficult to deal with; but will deliver a quality product. Sometimes delivery takes a while; but no one has ever reported losing money.(The guys feedback comments all say the same thing: good product, slow shipping and no response to emails) Spend a little more and get get good service from Woodchips or get a real deal but be "VERY" patient!!
bjackman
Member
John,
I'd be interested in any theories as to why you have less runout on your mandrel than you do on the interior slope surface?
Seems to me they should be equal?
I'd be interested in any theories as to why you have less runout on your mandrel than you do on the interior slope surface?
Seems to me they should be equal?
Randy_
Member
I guess there are all sorts of possibilities; but the simplest would be where the spindle and have similar non-concentricities and are lined up exactlt opposite to each other, they could cancel each other out.
Russ Fairfield, in his web site comments on checking mandrels, suggests suggests trying the mandrel in the spindle in each of 4 different positions by rotating the mandrel 90° at each of 4 insertions into the spindle to see which postion gives the best performance.
Russ Fairfield, in his web site comments on checking mandrels, suggests suggests trying the mandrel in the spindle in each of 4 different positions by rotating the mandrel 90° at each of 4 insertions into the spindle to see which postion gives the best performance.
johnnycnc
Member
Bill,the facts are that several "connections" are playing into this
equation.
1.)The lathe spindle taper to collet chuck shank taper.
2.)The chuck seat taper area for collet to collet exterior taper.
3.)The collet nose taper to collet nut interior taper.
3a.)The collet nut interior thread to chuck body exterior thread.
4.)The collet interior bore to mandrel exterior.
Also,and this <u>is a factor</u>,is simple math:
the .001 runout(rise) at the mt shank will multiply itself over the
distance out to the collet end (run).
If each connection is not perfectly concentric,it will transfer
runout relative to orientation of each mating piece on through
to the next item,be it collet,mandrel,whatever.
Notice I said relative,as in it could multiply,or it could
partially cancel each runout.Progressively turn and try,
check runout to find the best location.Randy's reference to
Russ Fairfield's information is absolutely on track.
Notice in my Lathe gallery that the .004 chuck interior runout
manifests itself as .003 runout on mandrel #1,and .0055 on
mandrel #2.These were turned/fussed with for best readings,btw.
The negligible runout I saw on lathe headstock,and the Beall chuck
having a shorter length,plus made in U.S.A. would lead me,
to go the Beall chuck route,if asked for a recommendation.
And while I have finished blanks on this setup with perfectly
acceptable results,I will use the between centers method,
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16594
(a recent topic by Dario(many thanks!))
to finish more expensive kits.
That's my take on it,thanks for reading![
]woodmarc
Member
OK, I went and did it. I bought the Beal chuck from woodchips. I ordered the the ER32 collets from 800watt on E-Bay and got them today. Man what a difference a quality tool makes!! on the mandrel that I thought were toast, in the beal collet, everything runs true! []
I am once again in debt to the many fine folks who contributed to this thread. FWIW, The BEAL it the cat's meow. anyone still trying to decide on which chuck to purchase, I can say that a collet chuck that screws onto the headstock will be a lot more accurate that with the morse taper. I just don't trust a friction fit. Any amount of dirt or grime in the taper, and everything is off. And when we are working with the tolerances that is required in pen making, every advantage in accuracy should be taken. JMHO.
Again thanks to all for the advice. Now back to the shop!
]I am once again in debt to the many fine folks who contributed to this thread. FWIW, The BEAL it the cat's meow. anyone still trying to decide on which chuck to purchase, I can say that a collet chuck that screws onto the headstock will be a lot more accurate that with the morse taper. I just don't trust a friction fit. Any amount of dirt or grime in the taper, and everything is off. And when we are working with the tolerances that is required in pen making, every advantage in accuracy should be taken. JMHO.
Again thanks to all for the advice. Now back to the shop!
Blind_Squirrel
Member
What is the difference between dirt/grim in the morse taper and dirt/grime on the threads?
woodmarc
Member
The Dirt and grime on the threads will not affect the accuracy as much as on the threads. Besides, it is so much easier to clean what you can see.
Jerryconn
Member
Is this the collet set to get from EBay?
11 PC ER32 SPRING COLLETS SET, 1/8"-3/4"
11 PC ER32 SPRING COLLETS SET, 1/8"-3/4"
Randy_
Member
Probably??
Check out this auction: 140032554990
Check out this auction: 140032554990
Jerryconn
Member
That is the auction I was looking at, if those are the collets for the beall chuck then I am going to get in on it.
Randy_
Member
They are. Don't bid too much, The guy has these on eBay on a regular basis starting at $49.99 and frequently there are no bids. If you are not in a hurry, you will be able to save a few bucks by waiting for another auction.
Jerryconn
Member
Thanks Randy, I'll take a wait and see on this one. []
]woodmarc
Member
Jerry,
I picked mine up for 49.99. took a while to get so be patient.
I picked mine up for 49.99. took a while to get so be patient.
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