IAP 2008 BIRTHDAY BASH TRIVIA CONTEST- 10-JAN

[GaryMGg]

This has certainly moved off the trivia question per se, but it's interesting and I hope Randy et al aren't offended at this discussion within' their more important topic.

Mike,

It sounds like your lumber suppliers are retailers who are selling you S2S or even S4S boards milled to final dimension.
They're most likely taking 4/4 from stock, resawing it for you OR worse planning it down and wasting the other half.
That's different than a sawyer running a sawmill milling 1000 BF or 10000 BF or 100000 BF for someone who needs some of it milled at 2/4.
Were I to go to a sawyer and ask for 30 (or even 50 BF) of oak milled to 2/4 (I gotta joint & plane to 3/8" if I want nice square stock after the 2/4 is dry), it wouldn't be worthwhile because the initial setup charge would obviate the savings.
But, If I were buying 500 BF, it'd be worth it. If I were buying 1000 BF and getting some at 2/4 it'd be well worth it.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[ed4copies]

Mike,

That's the same result that would apply here, but we "Go around the bend" to get there.

My stock would be $1.75ish (with discounts) for red oak BUT they would charge me a dime a running foot for cutting a straight edge, then about twenty cents a BOARD foot for surfacing, so I probably will get real close to your $2.50 by the time I pick it up.

HOWEVER, I CAN buy 4/4 at $2.00 (fewer discounts) and have THEM re-saw (up to ten inches wide stock) to 1/2 (twenty cents a foot), then THEY will surface each to 3/8 (twenty cents a foot, again, but twice because I now have twice as many feet) But, when all is said and done, I end up with the 3/8 inch stock costing about $1.40 a square foot.

The last time I did this was 3 years ago, when I was building more backdrops for the craft booth, so these figures are NOT current - but the logic is still the same. Unfortunately maple and cherry have REALLY escalated in cost, oak not-so-much. I use poplar for the displays.

 

[karlkuehn]

Awww, man...is this going to be on the final!?

Let's see....yeah...*groan*...uh huh...hmmm...

*chews on pencil, thinking*

...mass equals weight times catholicism,...no wait, that's geometry...

*looks out the window at the squirrels*

...hummm...divide by the total number of average variables....got that...exponentiate the subset of the polynomial factorization quotient...don't forget to carry the one...

Viola! I got it. By my calculations, the answer is five over 12x, or 37 in layman's terms for you neophytes out there.

Sheesh! That the best you got?

 

[GaryMGg]

I went back and re-read the original question; the correct answer is "Become the third sawmill in the area."

 

[rhahnfl]

I was taught that any stock less than 1" in thickness was considered to be 1" thick when performing this calculation. Here is a reference for that: http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/What_is_a_Board_Foot.html

Hardwood BF
The formula for calculating hardwood lumber board footage is BF = SM x T (inches) and SM = [L feet) x W (inches) / 12] where L = nominal length (truncated to closest foot, not rounded upwards), W = actual width including fractions of inches, and T = nominal thickness. The SM is rounded to the closest whole number (no fractions) before multiplying by the thickness. To calculate the board footage for a bundle of lumber containing many pieces, the SM is determined for each piece of lumber individually. The sum of the SM for all pieces of the same nominal thickness is determined and then multiplied by the nominal thickness to obtain the board footage, rounding to the closest board foot. (In practice, to measure the SM, a scaling stick is used, similar to a log scaling stick, with SM numbers for various lengths of lumber. The stick is placed across the width of the lumber.)

The nominal thickness of hardwood lumber is traditionally the minimum thickness when green or air-dried. So, 4/4 lumber is at least 1.00-inch thick in the portion of the lumber used to establish the grade of the piece; 6/4 is 1.50 inches thick; and so on. Pieces under 1.00-inch thick (such as 3/4) use a nominal thickness of 1-inch when calculating board footage. In order to achieve the required minimum thickness, hardwood lumber usually has an average thickness 1/8-inch greater than the nominal thickness. However, this over-thickness is not required (although it may be expected). In fact, many modern mills can and do meet the minimum thickness requirement by producing lumber only 1/16-inch thicker than the nominal thickness. Often there are special rules or agreements between buyer and seller concerning average thickness and minimum thickness. Such specifications are especially important for lumber that is measured after kiln drying, where actual sizes are below the minimum sizes specified for green or air-dried lumber.

Now my brain is melting too!!!!

 

[THarvey]

No saw mill in the world would sell you the deminsion you need to maximize the number of blanks per volumetric board foot.

That is the fun of these questions.

 

[clthayer]

Ok All, I just got done flippin' 12,000BF of green red oak today so if ya wanna talk lumber we can talk lumber(yes I do this for a living.) Checking the 2007 edition of NHLA's Rules for the Measurement & Inspection of Hardwood & Cypress it states on page 8 paragraph 16 "A board foot is one foot long, one foot wide and one inch thick or its equivalent...In surfaced lumber, the board foot is based on the measurement before surfacing, and all lumber less than one inch thick is counted face measure and taken as one inch."

I am led to believe that the NHLA's rules are pretty much the industries standard, at least for rough sawing mills like what I work for.

Christian

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking

Yes Randy I do agree, but Linda is doin the math on our "guess".[}]

Mike

You really need to STOP telling these fine folks all these nasty little lies you keep spreading about me lately Mr. K!!!!!!! [xx(]

There will be a lightening bolt striking Mr. on the head before to long and that MIGHT knock a smidge of sense into him ...

[:X]Mrs who only does the kind of math that lets her have the check book.[}]

 

[Malainse]

How much $$ is the wood a BF ??? [)][)]

 

[IPD_Mrs]

First off I too hope that the discussion on how much we pay and how our board feet are measured. It is educational and may help someone from getting the short end of the stick in the future.

Gary and Ed,
Actually I am buying from the sawyer. They are pulling the logs, ruff cutting them, drying them in the kiln and then milling to my requested size. I used the 3/8" examples because I have to deal with that size from time to time. Most of our lumber is 13/16" and we buy 250 board feet at a time because my Bravada cannot haul more and we have a lack of suitable storage problem. I use to mill some of my own lumber but to be honest I hate the darn planner. In fact I sold the last one we had because the darn thing was so loud and it was so time consuming. I do get my lumber surfaced on both sides and one straight edge.(2S1?) If I need to work on any surface I have a drum sander that does quite nice and for edges we have a powermatic edger. If our woodworking was fulltime I would most likely change the way we do things, the most important as with 90% of us is space.

Gary I commend you, but I am too old to work as hard as you do.

Randy thanks for tollerating all this in your thread as it is fun and interesting to me, and it is always good to learn something.

Mike

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Originally posted by ed4copies

And their DEFINITION will be correct.

We are, however, talking about SAWMILLS and purchasing FROM THEM!

Find me one that will take thickness into account under 4/4 and I will patronize THEM. IF we are going to teach about sawmills and board feet, it would be GOOD to teach what actually happens so you don't walk in and make a fool of yourself purchasing half-inch stock. DAMHIKT!!!!!

I'll tell you what Gentlemen ... each of you ante up for 1 board foot of Nolan's wood (my choice of flavor) done in your respective theories and I'll tell you which one I get more blanks out of. Then whoever wins can be declared the king of defining this question [}]

Just send that to [:X] Mrs. who would be the real winner here

 

[DozerMite]

Originally posted by ed4copies


We are, however, talking about SAWMILLS and purchasing FROM THEM!

Find me one that will take thickness into account under 4/4 and I will patronize THEM. IF we are going to teach about sawmills and board feet, it would be GOOD to teach what actually happens so you don't walk in and make a fool of yourself purchasing half-inch stock. DAMHIKT!!!!!

The closest thing we have to a sawmill would be Johnsons Workbench( they do mill thier own wood)and they DO take into account the thickness under 4/4. You can ask for a board ft. of 1/2" birdseye maple and they give you the volumetric equivalent.
Veneers on the other hand are a special item, not sold in board ft., but sq. ft.

 

[Randy_]

Great discussion. I love it!![^]

 

[Proud_Poppa_of_2]

Did anybody else get 8? It just doesn't look right to me.

 

[NavyDiver]

I think I figured at least 8 [].

 

[IPD_Mrs]

I don't know why but I can't get a 3/32 kerf with my chain saw!

 

[fiferb]

It's still too difficult for me. I'm just going to use the 1 board foot and make a platter.[]

 

[Daniel]

Eric, If you get 8, Please send me your scraps[}]

 

[Chasper]

I'm planning to get a 12 foot by 18 foot piece of 1/32 veneer, cut it with a knife to avoid the kerf entirely, then glue it up with a very heavy coat of glue. I'm hoping that if I'm half glue and half wood I'll be able to stretch it out a little better, I'm sure I can do it with less than a full barrel of white glue.

Did anybody else get 457 blanks?

 

[ed4copies]

Those would be EXTREMELY short pens, Gerry!!

 

[IPD_Mrs]

OK Randy,
I know you are loosing your lunch money at the table tonight, but how is it you were able to post in the Jan 11 Trivia at 13 seconds past 8 o'clock and not once this past 10 days could you be within 5 min.[:0] You have some explaining to do buster and it had better be good or we are gonna sick Doc or worse yet Santa on you![^]

Mike

 

[Jarheaded]

I am just not going to turn anymore Sierras. That takes care of that problem. What's next?

 

[Randy_]

Potty break and as of right now it is more than just lunch money!!

 

[rlharding]

Did I miss the winners posting? I can't find the answer.
Ruth

 

[TBone]

Originally posted by rlharding

Did I miss the winners posting? I can't find the answer.
Ruth

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger [8D]

 

[GaryMGg]

It ain't 42, I'll tell ya that.

 

[Proud_Poppa_of_2]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

It ain't 42, I'll tell ya that.

But, is it 8? Because I'm still not feeling comfortable with that.

 

[GaryMGg]

Michael,
Unless you're gettin' 8 two-tone, bird's eye loaded Amboyna burl blanks out of a piece of poplar, you gotta problem.
As for me, I'm done in && will look tomorrow and see how close Randy was to my answer. [][)]

 

[Randy_]

Trivia Contest Winners</u>

Question: OK, this is the last question for my part of the trivia contest. At first reading it will seem like a pretty tough question; but if you think about it for a minute, it is really quite simple and takes only about 15 seconds to figure out. (probably about a 7th or 8th grade math question) Good luck!!

You live in a town with two saw mills and are thinking of starting a blank selling business. Both mills sell exotic lumber; but only in one board foot pieces. Mill "A" offers low prices; but only sells boards that are 12" x 12". Mill "B" is 50% more expensive; but will provide boards in any dimensions that you would like.

You plan to start off offering blanks for the Sierra kit since it is popular in your area. You know that you can get 64 blanks from a 12" x 12" board; but need to figure out how many blanks you can possibly get out of an optimally sized board.

Here are the figures you need. The bookkeeper is on vacation this week so you have to do your own calculations.

The blanks need to be 3/4" x 3/4" x 2.21" + 1/8"(to prevent blowouts). The kerf width on your saw is 3/32". Which mill offers the better deal and what is the maximum number of blanks you can expect to get from a board foot of lumber?

Answer: Mill "B" is the best deal and you can squeeze out 105 blanks.




Note: You would not believe the answers I got. They were all over the place. Maybe some were guesses or maybe we have some folks who have an accountant to balance their check books?? There were 41 entries for this contest and only 15 were correct. Several folks came real close which makes me think they had the correct method; but just made a little goof with the math. One or two others made typos in their answers; but showed their work and it was correct so I put their names in the hat. Rudy had one of the correct entries and included a very nice explanation of how to determine the number of blanks. I have taken the liberty of posting it below for those who are interested.(Quite a coincidence!! I wrote this before the winners were selected and didn't know Rudy was a winner until I completed the selection process!![8D])

Well, this is my last day in the "HOT" seat. I hope everyone had fun and maybe even learned a little. Bruce will be your TriviaMeister for the next 11 days. Please be nice to him and thanks for participating!! Randy


The winners of the day 10 contest are:

Rudy Vey

and

mrcook4570


And the prizes are:

Laser engraving service donated by mrcook4570

Pen Blanks(2) donated by its_virgil

I just noticed that Stan is one of the donators of a prize for this contest [B)]and I would suppose he would not want his own prize. [^] We will work out something to make everyone happy!! My last on the job and I can't even get thru it without a problem. I need a vacation!!








*****CONGRATULATIONS*****



Note: Both winners need to go to Andrew Jordan's profile and email him with:

1. Name and date of the contest you won, placedplaced in the title block of your email, please. (Example: Jan 8 Trivia)
2. Your mailing address and
3. Your prize preference. (If you both select the same prize, Andrew will flip a coin to determine who gets what.
4. Phone number.(New requirement per Andrew as FedEx requires it for packages they carry.


I would like to remind each winner that the gift you will be receiving has been donated by a supporter of the IAP. Please take a minute to email a note of appreciation when you receive your prize. Thanks.


Since the mill will provide "boards" of any size, I chose a board that is 0.75"x0.75" square.
Now, blank length + blow-out 1/8 + kerf of 3/32= 2.42875"
0.75 x 0.75 x 2.42875 = 1.366 cubic inch per blank
A board foot has 144 cubic inches:
144 divided by 1.366 = yield is 105.4 Sierra blanks
Board must be: 0.75 x 0.75 x 256"

 

[maxwell_smart007]

even seeing the answer makes my non-math brain cringe! How about a philosophy question next time!

 

[IPD_Mrs]

I sure would like to find a mill that will charge me based on thickness as well. If the board is 12" x 12" x 3/4" I pay for a board foot not .75 board feet. I want Randy to open a mill like that in my area![]

Mike

 

[rhahnfl]

I want the workshop that can handle and store 21+ foot long stock...

 

[GaryMGg]

Randy,
I got the same answer and provided the same explanation to Tom via email (neither of us entered this one). BUT on the non-theoretical board that's 12" X 12" x 1"
How'd you place the blanks so as to yield 64 blanks? I was only coming up with 56 and a load of waste.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by rhahnfl

I want the workshop that can handle and store 21+ foot long stock...

It is actually 21' 4" so YOU could cut the boards in half and have a reasonable length to store in your shop.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Randy,
I got the same answer and provided the same explanation to Tom via email (neither of us entered this one). BUT on the non-theoretical board that's 12" X 12" x 1"
How'd you place the blanks so as to yield 64 blanks? I was only coming up with 56 and a load of waste.

Gary: Out of that big chunk of "waste," you can get 8 more blanks if you change the blank orientation by 90° and you are only a few thousandths of an inch shy of being able to get ten blanks. If I had been asking folks to compute that number, I would not have had it come out so close as you would have had to work to 4 decimals or used a CAD program to see the shortage. But since the number was given, I didn't worry about the close figuring.

 

[GaryMGg]

Originally posted by Randy_

Originally posted by rhahnfl

I want the workshop that can handle and store 21+ foot long stock...

It is actually 21' 4" so YOU could cut the boards in half and have a reasonable length to store in your shop.

If I had to, I could store 21'+ in the shop.
Join us Feb. 23rd and see [8D]

 

[rhahnfl]

I'd like to do that. I may have to help move one of my daughters and hate to commit to anything until I find out if/when she is moving. I'm marking my calendar though.

 

[Daniel]

dang I'm feeling smart. And I still want the scraps from all of you that got 8.

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by Randy_

Originally posted by rhahnfl

I want the workshop that can handle and store 21+ foot long stock...

It is actually 21' 4" so YOU could cut the boards in half and have a reasonable length to store in your shop.

The correct answer was 105 blanks, so if you cut the "board" in half, you will be cutting a blank in half and reduce your yield.[:0][:0][:0]

Just wanted to see what YOUR version of the answer would be.

Been fun!!! Thanks to all.

 

[Randy_]

Well, I should have been a little more precise with my language. I didn't mean "EXACTLY" in half. If you cut the board at exactly the 10' 9" mark you will have two lengths that are 10' 9" long and 10' 7" long. (each less half a kerf width) From the longer you can get 53 blanks and from the shorter 52 blanks and have two waste pieces about a 1/2" long. If you want a single waste piece that is about 1" long, you can move your cut a little.