Once the elephant is dead (from any cause) it doesn't.
Help stop the ivory ban.
- Thread starter Sandra Brady
- Start date
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Haynie
Member
OP has exactly one post in a 5 page thread. Uses fear tactics in much the same way the NRA, and PETA do. Scrimshaw can be done on different substrates. Nothing more than a drive by political post.
I challenge the OP, if she even bothers to come back, to explain WHY she has to use ivory.
I challenge the OP, if she even bothers to come back, to explain WHY she has to use ivory.
bruce119
Member
She has a point that was brought out in this discussion....
The law needs to be fine tuned...Is it actually a law yet...I don't know...
It really doesn't effect me too much except maybe for the few fossils I have..
But there is a LOT of legit Ivory out there....
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Fireengines
Member
I looks like the original poster dropped a bomb, set back and looked and the responses, and offered no other comment. If she was so passionate about this issue, I would have hoped she would have responded to some of the posts.
Quality Pen
Member
She might come back
I went to her web site she posted and sent an email. Who knows...
This is the most "political" post in this thread.
Joe S.
Member
It's all fine and good to use ligament ivory, in fact it would be a waste not to. One problem here is the demand is greater than the supply of "good" ivory. Poachers don't care about the elephants, so the social cost of killing them is not taken into account when they "produce". The other option then is to lower demand to a more acceptable level of output.
Another thing that will make solving (if it can be solved) the problem harder is that we are not the only consumers of ivory. If all ivory is banned in the U.S., it will just go somewhere else (I would need to look this up, but I think Japan has a strong market for ivory...).
Another thing that will make solving (if it can be solved) the problem harder is that we are not the only consumers of ivory. If all ivory is banned in the U.S., it will just go somewhere else (I would need to look this up, but I think Japan has a strong market for ivory...).
I am absolutely astonished that the moderators have allowed this post to continue. The OP joins with the sole purpose of promoting her personal agenda which has absolutely nothing to do with pen turning then disappears. We all believe in protecting our planet but using this forum in this manner as a personal soap box is - IMHO - in very poor taste.
What happened to the forum rules? Sorry, but I've seen the moderators "sanction" long standing members for posts that were not nearly as controversial as this one, yet this is allowed?
What happened to the forum rules? Sorry, but I've seen the moderators "sanction" long standing members for posts that were not nearly as controversial as this one, yet this is allowed?
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Sylvanite
Member
What we need, are farm-raised elephants. Then the world would have a steady supply of responsibly harvested "agricultural ivory", and the demand for "free range ivory" would diminish. The wild elephant population would be less threatened by poaching and could go back to worrying about habitat destruction.
Seriously though, I expect the US ban on ivory trade will prove about as effective as the "war on drugs".
Also, the OP's claim that the ivory ban sets precedent for an exotic wood ban has some merit. Remember that federal marshals raided Gibson Guitars for importing ebony. The Lacey Act could easily be expanded to criminalize sales and transfer of pens (as well as guitars) made from legally acquired wood.
I'm afraid I've overstepped the bounds on political discussion, but woodworkers should legitimately be concerned about preserving the medium of their craft, and of others' crafts. Pastor Martin Niemöller's famous quotation seems applicable here.
Regards,
Eric
Seriously though, I expect the US ban on ivory trade will prove about as effective as the "war on drugs".
Also, the OP's claim that the ivory ban sets precedent for an exotic wood ban has some merit. Remember that federal marshals raided Gibson Guitars for importing ebony. The Lacey Act could easily be expanded to criminalize sales and transfer of pens (as well as guitars) made from legally acquired wood.
I'm afraid I've overstepped the bounds on political discussion, but woodworkers should legitimately be concerned about preserving the medium of their craft, and of others' crafts. Pastor Martin Niemöller's famous quotation seems applicable here.
Regards,
Eric
JohnGreco
Member
Wow, I m quite shocked at the animosity being displayed towards the OP. Where is the welcoming helpful IAP I thought I knew? She says she has made scrimshaw pens yet people question what 'her problem' has to do with pens.
I have walked in her shoes. My first iteration of business was a wooden toy maker, that was until the government (Bush era) passed the CPSIA forcing a lot of required testing. This passed nearly unanimously in BOTH the Senate & House.
I was lucky my business was still young and could easily change. This woman has 37 years under her belt. I understand the sense of helplessness when all you get are canned replies from your Representatives in Washington (well, from their aides. The Rep's never see your email or get your voicemail).
People are asking why she hasn't returned. Would YOU? Read some of these posts. Look at the thread started just to mock her (banning sharp tools). If I were her I'd write this attempt at finding people who give a damn off as wasted breath.
I'll probably have some of this hatred spread my way for writing this. It doesn't matter, I'm just tired of seeing grown adults argue for the sake of arguing. Somebody came here looking for help. People jumped down her throat from the get-go with the untrusted link comment (a google search showed she was legit).
Very disappointed.
I have walked in her shoes. My first iteration of business was a wooden toy maker, that was until the government (Bush era) passed the CPSIA forcing a lot of required testing. This passed nearly unanimously in BOTH the Senate & House.
I was lucky my business was still young and could easily change. This woman has 37 years under her belt. I understand the sense of helplessness when all you get are canned replies from your Representatives in Washington (well, from their aides. The Rep's never see your email or get your voicemail).
People are asking why she hasn't returned. Would YOU? Read some of these posts. Look at the thread started just to mock her (banning sharp tools). If I were her I'd write this attempt at finding people who give a damn off as wasted breath.
I'll probably have some of this hatred spread my way for writing this. It doesn't matter, I'm just tired of seeing grown adults argue for the sake of arguing. Somebody came here looking for help. People jumped down her throat from the get-go with the untrusted link comment (a google search showed she was legit).
Very disappointed.
bruce119
Member
I think this thread is going pretty well, agreed, it would be nice if O.P. would chime in...I see no reason yet to close this...though it's getting close...
What it does is bring awareness to us...There are a lot of pens out there that has legitimate Ivory...And I sure quite a few with a stash...
I need to look into it more I also have quite a few Wart Hog Tusk and other exotic horns that I got off eBay a few years ago...
Now I can't sell them on eBay...I think that is there rules and not the law????
.
What it does is bring awareness to us...There are a lot of pens out there that has legitimate Ivory...And I sure quite a few with a stash...
I need to look into it more I also have quite a few Wart Hog Tusk and other exotic horns that I got off eBay a few years ago...
Now I can't sell them on eBay...I think that is there rules and not the law????
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Joe S.
Member
I think the thread has continued because it contains some good discussion and has mostly stayed civil.
And that other thread was making fun of Ed, not the OP.
And that other thread was making fun of Ed, not the OP.
For what it's worth.....
No one disagrees with the OP on us needing to be good stewards of ALL of our planets' resources, but - again, IMHO - this is NOT the place for this discussion. I am sure there are far more appropriate forums to promote your personal agendas than to join a pen turning site for that sole purpose.
I come here to escape the c**p of the real world, even if it is only artificial in a certain sense. I come here to see the works of art that are created. I get more enjoyment seeing the creations of a 10 year old youngster turning his/her first pen than I do seeing the masterpieces from long-time turners. I get a lot of enjoyment being able to give some helpful advice to the new turner just getting started like we all once were. I come here to get new ideas or learn new skills from people far more experienced than I. I come here to offer a bit of hope for someone going through a tough time. I do not come here to have someone preach to me about being a felon if I try to sell a banned piece of ivory or hear that person promote their political agenda. (for the record - I will never work with ANY endangered product).
I've been around here a long time and have never gotten even remotely involved with a thread like this. I have always focused on the good things that come from here but this time someone hit just the right button.
Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now......I'll leave that to the OP.
No one disagrees with the OP on us needing to be good stewards of ALL of our planets' resources, but - again, IMHO - this is NOT the place for this discussion. I am sure there are far more appropriate forums to promote your personal agendas than to join a pen turning site for that sole purpose.
I come here to escape the c**p of the real world, even if it is only artificial in a certain sense. I come here to see the works of art that are created. I get more enjoyment seeing the creations of a 10 year old youngster turning his/her first pen than I do seeing the masterpieces from long-time turners. I get a lot of enjoyment being able to give some helpful advice to the new turner just getting started like we all once were. I come here to get new ideas or learn new skills from people far more experienced than I. I come here to offer a bit of hope for someone going through a tough time. I do not come here to have someone preach to me about being a felon if I try to sell a banned piece of ivory or hear that person promote their political agenda. (for the record - I will never work with ANY endangered product).
I've been around here a long time and have never gotten even remotely involved with a thread like this. I have always focused on the good things that come from here but this time someone hit just the right button.
Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now......I'll leave that to the OP.
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bjbear76
Member
Bob, I understand where you're coming from. The only point that I disagree with you is where it is appropriate to discuss. Since this is the Casual Conversation forum, as long as it stays civilized, it IS appropriate IMO. We are all going to have our difference of opinions, but to me, this has been interesting to listen to the different points of view. I'll be honest and say there have been past topics that "ruffled my feathers" so to speak, I just don't read it. It's up to the individual to decide what to read and what topics to ignore. I personally enjoy the "how-to" forums most of the time.
stonepecker
Member
Isn't it wonderful that we can have this discussion. In some countries you can be shot for what you think or even just talk about. I am very happy to see that Admin and Moderators have allowed this posting to continue.
And I hope that this can continue when something is discussed that we are feel is important to our hobby.
"The land of the Free ... because of the Brave."
And I hope that this can continue when something is discussed that we are feel is important to our hobby.
"The land of the Free ... because of the Brave."
Karl_99
Member
This has been an interesting thread. As far as how it relates to pen turning, for me this hits home as I have been asked to make some pens with prehistoric mammoth and pre-ban elephant ivory. I have been very interested from both a legal and ethical perspective.
I figured out why this OP's post bothers me so much.....other than the fact that she joined for the sole reason of hopefully gaining an audience. She has not contributed one single piece of additional support or commentary. She basically got people riled up (seemingly just me) and vanished. In my world, you stand behind your beliefs from center stage, not from the shadows.
There's a big difference between someone talking WITH me or talking AT me.
Again, just my simple-minded opinion.
There's a big difference between someone talking WITH me or talking AT me.
Again, just my simple-minded opinion.
bjbear76
Member
It does make one wonder, doesn't it? It would seem appropriate that she would contribute with some facts, I agree.
Personally I think that joining a thread simply to state that you think the thread doesn't belong in this site doesn't make much sense - if you don't like it don't follow it. The thread does address an issue that we all have some interest in (using imported materials in our hobby).
Sandra Brady
Member
Thank you Ed for at least giving me a chance! I don't want to start a political discussion here, as I understand that is not appropriate. But you all should be aware of the possible changes. Basically what the government is trying to do is make all ivory even 100 yr old stuff illegal, if you don't have "proper paperwork" and it's up to the individual to prove that it meets impossible criteria in order to get paperwork. Like what port it entered the country in. Since there are no records it's impossible to prove. I know at least a few of you must have used some ivory in the past. The other problem that I foresee is mammoth ivory ( and some imitation material) can be mistaken for elephant, and so you should carry receipts with you just in case.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
To clarify, I sent Ms. Brady an email and she replied that she was not able to locate the thread. So, I sent a link.
I believe we should "hear out" more of this issue and what we might be able to do to protect live elephants without making all ivory (even that currently in your possession) un-marketable.
BTW, I have a very small amount of mastadon ivory, NO elephant ivory--so this is NOT a matter of protecting any self-interest.
FWIW,
Ed
I believe we should "hear out" more of this issue and what we might be able to do to protect live elephants without making all ivory (even that currently in your possession) un-marketable.
BTW, I have a very small amount of mastadon ivory, NO elephant ivory--so this is NOT a matter of protecting any self-interest.
FWIW,
Ed
Sandra Brady
Member
And FYI I didn't post my opinion on here, just one website where you can find the facts. follow the links. You can look up the info, or not. You can be against using ivory, and I'm ok with that too. But there is a lot of ivory that is here in the country. And it is legal, for now at least. The US hasn't allowed any importation of ivory for over 25 years. What is here is pre-ban. Pre 1989.
Sandra Brady
Member
bjbeaar do you want facts? What facts would you like to see?The government site where they say they are going to make it illegal? and a link to USFWS questions and answers. Interior Announces Ban on Commercial Trade of Ivory as Part of Overall Effort to Combat Poaching, Wildlife Trafficking
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - International Affairs.
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - International Affairs.
Sandra Brady
Member
To bruce119, ebay has dis allowed all ivory items to be sold because there is no way to police it. It has been illegal to import ivory since 1989, and there was a lot of antique items coming in from England, and I am sure other countries bypassing the need for proper C.I.T.E.S. documentation. So rather than try they just made a rule. The VP of EBay is one of the people on the advisory commitee.
So, if one disagrees with something, they should basically keep their mouth shut and not participate?
The first thing to determine is "Do live elephants NEED any extra ordinary protection?" If the answer to that question is "yes" then we need to answer the next question. "What is the most effective way to provide protection?" The demand for ivory in largely Asian but doing some reading I personally have concluded that loss of habitat having nothing to do with Ivory trade is a far greater problem in the long haul than poaching. Particularily for the African Elephants.
In addition, Africa is notorious for unstable governments so their law enforcement is pretty bad in a lot of places making it very difficult to stop poaching in those areas.
A third problem that I see is that many African nations are extremely poor this again impedes their law enforcement efforts, even if they want to stop poachers they lack the where-with-all to do it.
Notice that none of the above problems is likely be impacted to any great extent, if at all, by what our government is proposing to do internal to the USA.
In addition, Africa is notorious for unstable governments so their law enforcement is pretty bad in a lot of places making it very difficult to stop poaching in those areas.
A third problem that I see is that many African nations are extremely poor this again impedes their law enforcement efforts, even if they want to stop poachers they lack the where-with-all to do it.
Notice that none of the above problems is likely be impacted to any great extent, if at all, by what our government is proposing to do internal to the USA.
Joe S.
Member
No, but they can add meaningful input as to why they disagree rather than complain about the topic being posted.
Quality Pen
Member
This seems to be getting quite political and heated. I think before we get going any further we need to address some basic, fundamental questions:
First of all, are we -- as rational human beings -- truly able to experience anything in an objective manner?
Secondly, why is there a universe at all? And if we can begin to answer that then it begs the following question, "Where did it originate?"
First of all, are we -- as rational human beings -- truly able to experience anything in an objective manner?
Secondly, why is there a universe at all? And if we can begin to answer that then it begs the following question, "Where did it originate?"
No that is very clearly not what I said and you and I both know that.
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Cmiles1985
Member
Well this has certainly been an interesting read. I'll do my best to leave my personal thoughts of OUR government out of my post. The nature of the way laws work is very typically a slippery slope. This, IIRC, is what the OP was mentioning. I do not own any ivory. However, if I did, and had intentions of selling something made of it, I'd be upset. Especially if I obtained it legally! I know I'd feel this way about some stuff that I do have.
Thanks for sharing, and welcome to the forum!
Thanks for sharing, and welcome to the forum!
bruce119
Member
I think the O.P. did a good thing...this needs to be brought to our attention...Yes politics dose get involved but heck what we supposed to do just roll over and take it...
There are legit points being made worthy of writing your congressman...
I did read some sad stories about the older Guitars that are going to be devastated and the story's about the old pianos being destroyed...
Bye the way Sandra your work looks outstanding and you have made quite a few achievements...
THANK YOU FOR TAKING A STAND
Someone has to, as most don't because, 'that don't effect me', 'I can't do anything'
This thread has accomplished it's intention I think bringing awareness...
Our bickering among our self's is what deteriorates a thread and this is getting close...
I want to thank you Sandra...maybe you can show us some of your work on a pen...
.
There are legit points being made worthy of writing your congressman...
I did read some sad stories about the older Guitars that are going to be devastated and the story's about the old pianos being destroyed...
Bye the way Sandra your work looks outstanding and you have made quite a few achievements...
THANK YOU FOR TAKING A STAND
Someone has to, as most don't because, 'that don't effect me', 'I can't do anything'
This thread has accomplished it's intention I think bringing awareness...
Our bickering among our self's is what deteriorates a thread and this is getting close...
I want to thank you Sandra...maybe you can show us some of your work on a pen...
.
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
Smitty, you are the first person I have EVER challenged on this site - EVER!
You may know it, I don't. What I see is you saying "....if you don't like it, don't follow it".
I stand by my assertion Sir.
I don't want to argue so I will withdraw all of my responses to your posts....
There have been no rules broken, nor has it become overtly political....but that being said, please try an ensure that we're discussing the pertinent points, and not attacking others' right to have an opinion...
When this thread was about ivory, it was interesting....let's keep it so.
Andrew
assistant moderator
When this thread was about ivory, it was interesting....let's keep it so.
Andrew
assistant moderator
After looking at the site, it looks like the government isn't banning all ivory - it makes specific reference to antique ivory:
To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Endangered Species Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.
To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Endangered Species Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.
Sandra Brady
Member
They are banning all pre ban elephant ivory which is 25-100 yrs old. Up to now this ivory has been bought sold and traded with out a problem. It was imported when there was no restrictions on it. So there was never any paperwork. The most a person might have is a receipt from the seller and that won't be enough to allow you to legally sell it. You will be assumed guilty and prosecuted if caught. Fossil walrus and mammoth are exempt. But is a fish and wildlife agent comes thru a show, spots something he thinks is ivory, he has the authority to confiscate. Often the similarities between the ivories are so great that the average person could easily make a mistake. See the problem? And your are assumed guilty. As a person who takes raw materials and fashions them into a finished product, I see the burden of proof aspect of this very troubling. At the March 20 th meeting it was stated that they would like to see 100 prosecutions / month. Up from 100/ yr. that they now have. By changing the laws to make a legal commodity illegal, they will be able to reach this quota at the expense of law abiding citizens. All in the name of saving the elephant. It's a slippery slope!
Joe S.
Member
The more I read about this, the more I think maybe the ban isn't a terrible thing... It is defiantly a pain and it is a shame that you can't use most (if not all) pre-ban ivory, but now the cost of elephant poaching IS on somebody, it just happens to be us. There is a negative externality in the market for ivory, and somebody needs to pay the added cost. We seem to have established that you can't really do that to the producers without starting a war. 
:biggrin: I realize that this is our equivalent to banning exotic wood, but if that is what it takes to save a species from extinction, I would be ok with it.
Thank you for posting this thread, there were some bumps in the road, but this has been one of the most interesting threads in a while. I'm actually inspired to get some Ivory with the proper paperwork and make a pen out of it, but I'm pretty sure that inspiration will dim when I see the price of a stick of ivory. :biggrin:
:biggrin: I realize that this is our equivalent to banning exotic wood, but if that is what it takes to save a species from extinction, I would be ok with it.Thank you for posting this thread, there were some bumps in the road, but this has been one of the most interesting threads in a while. I'm actually inspired to get some Ivory with the proper paperwork and make a pen out of it, but I'm pretty sure that inspiration will dim when I see the price of a stick of ivory. :biggrin:
bruce119
Member
Sandra,
Again I would like to thank you for bringing this to our attention....
The problem (I know it is for me) is that when you start looking into the actual laws and written martial it is over whelming and most give up, with a head ache and move on...
Thank you for bringing out important rite to the point details....Hopefully it helps awareness...I know I can't do too much but support you...and just talking about it maybe someone with the time and authority will notice....
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Joe S.
Member
-but as I said before, the market will likely just move somewhere else.