HELP! Casting snakeskin

[DestinTurnings]

So, I have now moved into trying to cast snakeskin on a tube in plain clear PR. I got the snakeskin on the tube perfectly, coated it in CA, and then cast it in resin. The result can be seen below...It has the shiny silver appearance that clearly shows the resin failed to adhere properly to the CA covered snakeskin.

The only thing I can think of is that I let the blanks sit on my bandsaw with it running to try to shake any bubbles to the top. I let it sit there until well after it jelled. Could it have seperated from too much vibration? I cast three blanks, only one of which was the snakeskin. The other two were abalone shell and they did the same thing...just to a lesser extent. I was actually able to save one and turned it but the second one was trashed. I appreciate any feedback and help.

 

[jallan]

David ,I do sneak skins once in a while . I glue the skin to the tube but I do not coat the skin with CA after i glue it. I just cast it after it dries for a day. Hope this helps
Jallan
Cedar Creek Custom Pens - Home

 

[plantman]

:biggrin::biggrin: David: Is Jallan cheating on his diet? Are these potato skins your sneaking?? I agree: I never let CA touch the outside on any snake skin I am going to cast. However, I have finished many skins with only CA. I find you must be sure the coat has completly cured before adding another or you will get a bad finish. Jim S

 

[DestinTurnings]

The abalone I did had the same problem and they weren't coated. Is there anything that I can use to clean the surface before I cast it in PR to improve the adherance? Denatured Alcohol, Acetone???

 

[its_virgil]

David,
The results you had are not uncommon. If the PR is not totally hardened this can happen as they are removed from the mold. There are several other reasons that can (I think) can cause this to happen. Air leaking out of the tubes because the seal made with whatever you use to plug the ends was not good enough to keep air inside. Polyresin gets hot when curing and hot air expands and the seal must keep it inside the tube. The air can come from the skin itself. Did you remove the scales from the skin? Always remove the scales! BTW, I have a bucket full that are worse than yours. But, it doesn't happen as often as it once did.

I glue the skins to the tubes and allow a couple of days for the glue to totally cure. I always coat the skins with CA and allow a couple more days for the CA to cure. Others suggest to not coat the skins with CA so you decide how you want to continue.

I heat the resin in an ultrasonic cleaner which also helps to remove air from the resin and thins down the resin. I have, in the past but no more, pack play dough inside the tubes to dispel as much air as I can prior to casting. I leave just enough room on the ends for the plugs to go inside.

I know how upsetting this can be. Do you clean the skins prior to casting. I clean the skins prior to gluing them to the tubes with either alcohol or lacquer thinner to help remove tanning solutions, especially glycerin which is one of the ingredients used for the ones I have.

Good luck and I'm sure you will get other suggestions of things to try. Using pressure is always an option.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[DestinTurnings]

David,
The results you had are not uncommon. If the PR is not totally hardened this can happen as they are removed from the mold. There are several other reasons that can (I think) can cause this to happen. Air leaking out of the tubes because the seal made with whatever you use to plug the ends was not good enough to keep air inside. Polyresin gets hot when curing and hot air expands and the seal must keep it inside the tube. The air can come from the skin itself. Did you remove the scales from the skin? Always remove the scales! BTW, I have a bucket full that are worse than yours. But, it doesn't happen as often as it once did.

I glue the skins to the tubes and allow a couple of days for the glue to totally cure. I always coat the skins with CA and allow a couple more days for the CA to cure. Others suggest to not coat the skins with CA so you decide how you want to continue.

I heat the resin in an ultrasonic cleaner which also helps to remove air from the resin and thins down the resin. I have, in the past but no more, pack play dough inside the tubes to dispel as much air as I can prior to casting. I leave just enough room on the ends for the plugs to go inside.

I know how upsetting this can be. Do you clean the skins prior to casting. I clean the skins prior to gluing them to the tubes with either alcohol or lacquer thinner to help remove tanning solutions, especially glycerin which is one of the ingredients used for the ones I have.

Good luck and I'm sure you will get other suggestions of things to try. Using pressure is always an option.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don, thanks for the feedback. I did not remove the scales. I also didn't wipe the skin down with DNA because I tanned these skins myself and didn't use glycerin. I use borax and it works GREAT. Tans the skin and is easily cleaned up. It leaves the skin kinda crispy but it won't tear and is very easy to work around the tube.

I had the same thing happen with the abalone I used. It really sucks when I get these wrong. The abalone costs me about $5-6 a try and turning it off because the PR didn't stick makes me cry a little. I olny use 3 drops of MEKP per ounce. I wonder if it would actually do better curing faster. Guess there is only one way to find out....

 

[seamus7227]

That used to be a very familiar sight! I highly recommend you change your tanning method to 50/50 (99% alcohol/99%glycerine)Both can be bought at CQconcepts. When i am done tanning, the skins are soft and supple and I never have to wipe them down before casting. But then there is more than one way to this, right?! I also use a nice layer of CA to coat my skins after they have been applied to the tubes and also let them outgas for at least a couple of days before casting. You should also know that if you use too much heat(it must be controlled, the temperature of the heat that is) the skins will shrink while they are on the tubes, therefore resulting in the same look as what you just posted above. I typically heat my resin in the ultrasonic cleaner, which according to the thermometer i use, is around 140-150 degrees, for around 10 minutes. I also use PtownSubbie's silicone molds to cast(which uses silicone tapered plugs) and dont have issues with air in my castings. hope this helps ya!

 

[bruce119]

I agree with Don & Seamus...looks like you had some shrinkage (and PR always shrinks) and air got sucked in. Very common but I usually see it on the ends.

One thing you didn't mention yet is the mold you are using. It looks to me it mite be a PVC pipe because the cast is round. And maybe you casted vertically that would explain the separation all the way through. Perhaps the air got sucked in from the bottom and worked it's way up. Also a possibility as Don mentioned if you coat W/CA and I do you need to leave cure at least 2 days. Even though it feels dry it's still out gassing and trapped in PR well that means air.

Take a look at this THREAD I made my own molds. It mite give you some ideas. What is good about a mold that plugs the end and the top open is you can baby sit it. If you see any air leaking out of the plug you are going to have a problem.

Good Luck...Have Fun

 

[DestinTurnings]

I agree with Don & Seamus...looks like you had some shrinkage (and PR always shrinks) and air got sucked in. Very common but I usually see it on the ends.

One thing you didn't mention yet is the mold you are using. It looks to me it mite be a PVC pipe because the cast is round. And maybe you casted vertically that would explain the separation all the way through. Perhaps the air got sucked in from the bottom and worked it's way up. Also a possibility as Don mentioned if you coat W/CA and I do you need to leave cure at least 2 days. Even though it feels dry it's still out gassing and trapped in PR well that means air.

Take a look at this THREAD I made my own molds. It mite give you some ideas. What is good about a mold that plugs the end and the top open is you can baby sit it. If you see any air leaking out of the plug you are going to have a problem.

Good Luck...Have Fun

I actually turned that blank down and what you see in the pic is the final size. You are 100% correct in the casting method. I used a vertical PVC tube to cast. I also cast the same day I used the CA. I never considered it would still outgas.

I love your molds and might try to make some of my own once I get some time.

 

[warthog]

Snake skins

I have 3 copperhead...3 western diamondback and 1 timber rattler I am getting ready to turn into pen blanks. Is it really that necessary to remove the scales. What if you ran thin CA on the skin and let it get up under the scales and then let it cure. The more I think about this the more I like the idea. Any nay sayers out there.

 

[its_virgil]

Is it really that necessary to remove the scales. .

Let's see, how can I say this in a nice way?
YES!!!
And then a thin coat of CA.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[warthog]

okay

 

[DestinTurnings]

I have 3 copperhead...3 western diamondback and 1 timber rattler I am getting ready to turn into pen blanks. Is it really that necessary to remove the scales. What if you ran thin CA on the skin and let it get up under the scales and then let it cure. The more I think about this the more I like the idea. Any nay sayers out there.

I did exactly that...and you can see my result. I'm not sure if casting under pressure will help but I made a little rig to try that next. Just hate wasting snake.

 

[ed4copies]

I have 3 copperhead...3 western diamondback and 1 timber rattler I am getting ready to turn into pen blanks. Is it really that necessary to remove the scales. What if you ran thin CA on the skin and let it get up under the scales and then let it cure. The more I think about this the more I like the idea. Any nay sayers out there.

One of the advantages of the IAP is direction from those who have already made certain errors or found techniques that DON'T work! When you get Seamus, Don Ward and Dawn (PR_Princess) all to agree on something and you decide to do it a different way------don't be surprised when you encounter very little success.

Gain from their mistakes---take OFF the scales.

 

[seamus7227]

I have used a variety of methods to cast snakeskin, Silicone molds, pressure, open plastic molds, some with the resin preheated, some without. Either way, I have had failures with all styles and the end results were typically due to not getting all of the scales off of the skins.

The other problem was casting them too soon after gluing them to the tube with CA. Once you glue them up, be sure to let them sit for a few days before you cast to give the CA time to outgas through the skin. I know that sounds crazy but trust me.

Secondly, if you are pre-heating your resin, you need to make sure the temperature is regulated. Do not go over 140-150 degrees. If the resin gets too hot, essentially it will get hotter when you combine the MEKP and can possible cause skin shrinkage on the tube, therefore giving you the results like the picture you showed us. (not saying thats what you did though).

And lastly, do not post cure your finished blanks in the hot sun, this too will cause the skin to shrink if it is not controlled. I know some people may do this, but if you want to preserve the castings, they will take time. I cant tell you how many failures i have had and with some really nice skins. It use to make me sick, but now i dont worry about it so much.

Not sure if any of this helps you, just dont give up!

 

[healeydays]

I know this is an older thread, but thought I'd ask anyways.

I am about ready to turn some snakeskin into pen blanks, but don't want to tube them as I have no idea what type of pens will be made. Is it ok to use a dowel and wrap the skin around that before casting? If so, does anyone have an opinion how thick a dowel would be acceptable so it has enough meat on it to be drilled later?

Mike B

 

[bruce119]

I know this is an older thread, but thought I'd ask anyways.

I am about ready to turn some snakeskin into pen blanks, but don't want to tube them as I have no idea what type of pens will be made. Is it ok to use a dowel and wrap the skin around that before casting? If so, does anyone have an opinion how thick a dowel would be acceptable so it has enough meat on it to be drilled later?

Mike B

Hmmmm well Mike

I think you need to rethink this. Snake skin is glued to the tube and then cast. So there would be no drilling you really have to have a plan, Your tube from the kit you choose to make. :frown:

Do a little more looking around especially in this casting section and look in the library you should find lots of info.

Hope I helped :wink:
Oh and welcome to the fourm...it's a great place full of helpful people

Good Luck

 

[healeydays]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the advice, but still like to hear opinions on this. People cast all type of things upfront such as coffee beans, pine cones, burl chunks and many other things without knowing up front what will it be used for and it's usually in solid block form.

Don't get me wrong, I respect what you brought up, and totally understand your reasoning, I'm just looking for other possibilities...

Mike B

 

[theidlemind]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the advice, but still like to hear opinions on this. People cast all type of things upfront such as coffee beans, pine cones, burl chunks and many other things without knowing up front what will it be used for and it's usually in solid block form.

Don't get me wrong, I respect what you brought up, and totally understand your reasoning, I'm just looking for other possibilities...

Mike B

Dude. No. Those other castings you mention are all solid, snake skin is very thin.
Cast some stuff and you will see the difference in skins, labels, carbon fiber etc and the solid stuff.

 

[healeydays]

They are solid and so is the dowel I was suggesting and I don't expect to go thru the walls of it to the skin, but that's how I drill and if I do, I do.

Never mind guys. Heading back to just being just a reader, forget I asked the question...

 

[Kenny Durrant]

I'm no expert but I can tell you how to waste a ton of snake skins. I do agree with all the advice given to you and DO remove the scales. The thing that I think that helped me the most is patience. Slow down before casting the tubes. If you paint the tubes the paint needs to cure at least a few days if not more. Then the glue used to glue the skin to the tube and the ca used to coat the skin needs to cure a least a couple of days. This isn't set in stone because you might be able to get away with cutting corners but sooner or later it will catch up with you. I also let the cast stay in the pressure pot 24 hours then I remove it form the mold and let it set for another 24 before turning. Spare tubes are cheap so I try to keep a few painted all the time because I'm anxious to see the "New Pen". Good luck.

 

[Monty]

They are solid and so is the dowel I was suggesting and I don't expect to go thru the walls of it to the skin, but that's how I drill and if I do, I do....

If you put the skin around a small dowel for a small pen such as a slimline and then decide to make a larger pen such as a cigar, you will drill through the skin when drilling for the cigar tubes. On the other hand, if you use a larger dowel, you will most likely turn off the skin if you use it for a slimline.

 

[its_virgil]

You ask our opinion but don't like the answers?so, I'll give you mine. NO, I don't think it will work that way for several reasons which you don't seem to want to hear. Try and see for yourself and validate our info or prove use wrong.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

They are solid and so is the dowel I was suggesting and I don't expect to go thru the walls of it to the skin, but that's how I drill and if I do, I do.

Never mind guys. Heading back to just being just a reader, forget I asked the question...

 

[Kenny Durrant]

Sorry if I misunderstood your last remark but it sounded like you were tired of the answers to your question. Sometimes I think some are a little critical toward some of the questions asked But not now. Everyone has pretty much the same opinion and has seemed to be more than happy to help. Therefore I don't understand the comment "forget I asked the question" because all we tried to do was save you some time and frustration with things we've already found out the hard way. Good luck with whatever proceedure you try and I would hope if you do find a better way you would share it with us. I think that is the best reason to be a part of this forum.

 

[healeydays]

They are solid and so is the dowel I was suggesting and I don't expect to go thru the walls of it to the skin, but that's how I drill and if I do, I do.

Never mind guys. Heading back to just being just a reader, forget I asked the question...

Been away for awhile guys, and you mistook my answer. Penturners has been around for a long time, and so when I asked the question I hadn't read the histories on this subject at that point and I have now gone back and did my due diligence and became a reader and read alot of the past postings on this and other subjects.

But, I do have something to say. I have been managing large scale projects for many years and when we have meetings, I start the meetings off with saying all questions and ideas are fair game and will be listened to, and feel free to ask anything or come up with any idea even if it is from left field. I also state that there will be no bashing of someones ideas, just an open conversation about it.

I have dealt with many forums over the 30+ years I have been using the web (I go back to the ARPANET days) and have moderated many and I have found that folks who come across as answering questions on these type forums with answers basically telling the other person the question is a dumb one or belittling someone for even asking, are counter productive to the good of all.

Don't get me wrong. I know there is alot of years of talent in this forum and alot to learn from folks, but this is a hobby and some folks need to re-read the entry they are putting up before they hit that SUBMIT REPLY button. I know at times I do too...

Mike B

 

[bruce119]

They are solid and so is the dowel I was suggesting and I don't expect to go thru the walls of it to the skin, but that's how I drill and if I do, I do.

Never mind guys. Heading back to just being just a reader, forget I asked the question...

Been away for awhile guys, and you mistook my answer. Penturners has been around for a long time, and so when I asked the question I hadn't read the histories on this subject at that point and I have now gone back and did my due diligence and became a reader and read alot of the past postings on this and other subjects.

But, I do have something to say. I have been managing large scale projects for many years and when we have meetings, I start the meetings off with saying all questions and ideas are fair game and will be listened to, and feel free to ask anything or come up with any idea even if it is from left field. I also state that there will be no bashing of someones ideas, just an open conversation about it.

I have dealt with many forums over the 30+ years I have been using the web (I go back to the ARPANET days) and have moderated many and I have found that folks who come across as answering questions on these type forums with answers basically telling the other person the question is a dumb one or belittling someone for even asking, are counter productive to the good of all.

Don't get me wrong. I know there is alot of years of talent in this forum and alot to learn from folks, but this is a hobby and some folks need to re-read the entry they are putting up before they hit that SUBMIT REPLY button. I know at times I do too...

Mike B

Mike glad to see you back, hang in there you will find your answers and a
lot more heck some questions just can't be answered either.

I imagine you could drill trough a wood dowel and not go through the skin. BUT that is some very, very, very precise drilling. Every thing would have to be absolute perfect square and straight. I'm sure it could be done but it would be very difficult to keep control.

Keep on asking you will find tons of help here.

.

 

[healeydays]

I agree that the dowel method doesn't make alot of sense after reading other forums and notes. There is alot of wisdom here and other sites I visit, and want to pickup tidbits as I go. I know others that have wandered away from this and other sites due to reactions/comments from others, but as my wife and I say to our 19 year old, think before you speak as your meaning can be misinterpreted by others, and even at a later age, it's still wise words...

 

[mikespenturningz]

Sometimes when we vary the tried and true procedures new things and ways are found. Keep on trying new things but remember that tried and true will get you there. It just won't help you stumble onto something new and exciting! Great things happen when you step outside the box but there will be many failures too. The important thing is to have fun, don't get frustrated and keep trying.