Figuring basic selling costs

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Talltim

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Pricing is the subject I find most interesting. I know it has perhaps been beat almost to death in other posts but allow me to hit it one more time.

I see pens priced to varying markets. I understand that different markets bear different price structure but I also understand set costs.

To be honest there is not a pen kit out there that would seem to meet the break even point when sold for 15 dollars. Yet I see people are able to do it ( at shows) who seem to be attempting to make a profit.

I also understand that for some it is a therapeutic hobby. For me losing money is not therapeutic.

I hear various formulas for price. For example kit x three plus blank etc. For me that is hard to figure the spreadsheet bottomline.

Here is how I cost out a pen based on input from various sources and what I believe are true expenses. (Rink a member here was very helpful)

I will use a basic cigar in a nice grade kit as an example.

Kit cost 7.50 ( dayacom from exotic blanks of course)
Blank cost and prep 5.00
Certificates and promo 2.00
10 upcharge on parts 1.45
Covers shipping to me tax etc.
Misc. 5.00
Covers sandpaper, glue, finish etc.
Display box. 3.50
Total time $30.00
2 hours at 15 per hour includes choosing blank to customer ready.

Total 54.45

I would price it 59.95. We give a 10 percent discount for multiple pen purchase, which seems to motivate. If we have a limited supply blank (historic) we will up-charge it depending on demand.

This of course does not include any marketing time. And we do not do craft fairs or other venues that require a fee. If that were the case they would need to be factored in.

The hourly rate is based on the fact that it is my 15 yr olds business and i would not consider it enough for a true living wage.

How people price it much less than that I do not understand other than they discount or eliminate their time charge.

We manage to mostly sell what we have time to turn.

Is this realistic?
 
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WriteON

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Your pricing looks good to me. I generally add $10 to the kit then add $35-75 on top of that. I know people that sell too cheap. That catches up.
 
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magpens

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Total price a bit low, but ok. . But I don't get some of your details.

For example: . What do you mean by "10 upcharge on parts 1.45" - Does not jibe with any other number that you are taking 10% of, even including this line "Covers shipping to me tax etc." . 10% of kit cost (7.50) is not $1.45 , so where does $1.45 come from ?

"Blank cost and prep 5.00" - What does "Prep" mean ? - Drilling and gluing in tube ??
Also, you must be using very cheap blanks.

Not sure about this either : "Certificates and promo 2.00" - I guess "promo" means your cost of advertising, but what is "certificates".

Nitpicking, I know ... your overall price seems about right for a modest pen (Cigar).

You could make the display box optional and even include some markup on it to, say, $5 or $6 depending on the customer choice.

Total time for making the pen ($30) is quite low. When I make a one-off pen, it takes me about 5-6 hrs. . You must be in production mode, but even then $30 is low.

As I said, overall price is about right, but you need a simpler method of calculation like WriteON.

He uses kit price + $10, plus $35-75 ... so for your Cigar $17.50 + $35-75 = $52.50 - $92.50 compared to your $54.45

I think you need to allow for some variability for different blanks (ie. difficulty and finishing varies from blank to blank).

And I don't see any allowance for equipment (eg. lathe, and tools) maintenance and depreciation - another $5+ per pen.

Major problem with selling pens is that most people regard a pen as a purely utilitarian item, not as a work of art.
They are aware that they could lose it, and much better to lose a $0.10 pen from a dollar store or a freebee from insurance agent.

I think you have to pick your clientele in order to make any money selling pens ... people who appreciate what goes into the work/art.
 
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mecompco

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Most of my business is on Etsy. The good thing is that there are people there with money to spend. The bad thing is that there is huge competition in our niche, many selling for way less than they should be. That being said, I price my pens on the higher side (taking your Cigar for example, with a BOW blank would be $74.95). Bolt actions w/wood blanks are $54.95--with antler or other exotic, $74.95. I'm not getting rich, but I've sold 80 pens there so far this year.

When I do local craft fairs, I keep my pricing the same, and I still sell. People in this area may not have the money, but the competition is minimal, and people will pay for gifts (which is what I believe most of my pens are purchased for).

In addition to your list, I would add overhead--building heating and cooling, tools, electricity and the like. Oh, and fees and marketing--don't forget those!

The least I would sell a pen for (quickie wooden Slim for instance) is $24.95.

I add on for fancy/special boxes and charge an extra $10 for laser engraving.

Just what I do--everyone has a different opinion on this. I do think that the majority of pen makers tend to underprice/undervalue their work (although I have seen some disgraceful pens offered for sale).

Regards,
Michael
 

crokett

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Based on pricing in this thread, I'm one who charges too little. I have a couple ideas for some pens that I as far as I know would be tough to find from anyone else, I'm going to have to charge even more for those.
 

WriteON

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Ive seen Niles Stoppers starting at $20. Like others said.... you will
Kick yourself in the bushings when you need to replace equipment.
The biggest insult I got was I donated a very nice large display for a charity. The items were sold $20-30. One item cost me $50 and sold for $50. I told the person running the sale I'll never get involved again. I wanted to bring in x amount. Good intentions and low prices equal Out of Business. If you are selling... sell it. Make money or stay home. Believe in yourself. Marketing is an art but learn quickly. When I started I made pens for friends for the cost of the kit.... they wanted more and some thought I was overcharging them. I put the brakes real fast.
Keep the pricing simple. Add enough to make it worthwhile. If the item won't sell dont offer it. It takes the same time to make a single barrel pen for a Gear or Majestic or Nouveau as it does a Slimline. I sold a few of those for $75. Go for the fence. Nobody gives us a break when we buy supplies.
 
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leehljp

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To be honest there is not a pen kit out there that would seem to meet the break even point when sold for 15 dollars. Yet I see people are able to do it ( at shows) who seem to be attempting to make a profit.

I also understand that for some it is a therapeutic hobby. For me losing money is not therapeutic.

LOL! :biggrin: Agreed!

I am not a professional counselor but am a minister, and I took many electives in psychology years ago. Understanding people's mindset helps me in the work I do. That said, there is a mindset of some people that I have seen on IAP a few times over the year, - that " 'my individual time' is not worth anything. Anything over the price of the 'kit' is profit!" I learned this from my dad, as he grew up in the great depression. He could have been wealthy but did not considered his time or the cost of equipment on the things he made or the work he did.

Having watched that, I sometimes see this same mindset in other people. I have been to many craft and country fairs. I see this attitude in some sellers, and buyers. That is a fact of life and a cross section of some personalities. We just have to live/deal with them when we run across them. The fact is - our time and our machinery are part of the cost of making pens.


One other thing I wanted to comment on and a "soap box" of sorts in the woodworking field. I am not the best at this but I have noticed that the "average" woodworker and pen turner who do things for sale - spend more of their time in crafting/making than in finish. A mediocre blank will do well dressed in a finely polished finish. I usually spend as much time on the finish as the construction. At the point of sale, the finish is the presentation of the artistry and material under it.

Look at these pens that I picked out at random from the front page:

Look at the reflective light band on these two pens below this comment:
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/12678/1_firewhatfire.jpg
The reflective band show how well it has been finished. (A ceiling fluorescent light diffuser can mess up good photos). Some pen makers despise the look as "plastic like", but buyers see it as refined finish and quality of the maker. This adds to the value immensely.

This next pen does not have the shine of the above pen BUT it does show a refined satin finish that reflects the time spent on it.
IAP Home - Photos - Compact Ebonite Custom FP

This last pen - It is obvious that the matte finish is part of the presentation to showcase the material. What we often overlook is that matte finish usually lets us see wood grain defects (that this pen does not have). I have a Pink Ivory cross that my daughter gave me that was buffed and buffed. No liquid finish or wax. The pores were buffed. Smooth. Someone spent some time finishing it, just as with this pen.
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/8887/1_EDD1F372-974C-4C87-AF99-32CD12D283EE.jpeg
This pen, it doesn't have to have a sheen on it, but the time spent in finishing - whether matte, sheen or shine, - greatly increase the potential for sales. And this should be counted into the price.
 
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crokett

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Lee, it is interesting that you bring up the concept of finish. My acrylic pens are all polished to a high shine. Over the last several years I've adopted a finish of simple wax on my wood pens. My first several wood pens I did several layers of CA and polished it to a shine. Most of those were given to friends/relatives so I got to see them after they'd been used. I discovered that on a lot of them the CA eventually dulled from use. On my personal early pens the CA finish got marked, etc from being used,, stuck in my bag, etc. So far at least the customers I have had who pick a wood blank want the wax. Aside from it is easier for me to do and takes less time, IMO it pops the grain much better than a high shine. I realize that with some open grained woods a CA finish would be preferable.
 

dogcatcher

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I would recommend that you spend a few days reading and taking notes in the "Marketing" forum of IAP. There are a lot of good opinions of how people have turned penturning as a hobby into both full time and part time businesses. There are a lot of variables in pricing, one of the biggest factors is location, another is the sales venue. Learning how to operate a business also is a major part of how your success will progress.

Also the info you will be reading is "general" based on other's experience. Your location and sales venues may or may not be the same as theirs, nor do you have the experience that some of them have. If you have never been in sales, you can expect to get another education in dealing with people, some good, some bad.
 

Talltim

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Mal

Just to clarify a few things.

The upcharge on parts should say 10 percent. The preceding parts totaled 14.50 hence 1.45.

Blank prep might mean several anything from stabilization to extra glue time on segmentation. It happens on this series of pens the blank was free and the five dollars was for extra fiddle with it being oak. I always build in a blank cost even if it free. But it can be. 20.00 for a nice burl etc.

This was a production run of 23 identical pens we did.

The 2.00 promo covers business card, certificate of authenticity.

I have an excel sheet I plug the numbers in that does the math. Sometimes I add to it if I think it is too low but I want to make sure I get the basic costs in the formula.

I agree with Lee that the finish is a make it or break it.

We work in our basement but you are right we should build a little in for shop and lathe.

I find everyone's opinion interesting.

Thanks for sharing.
 

Woodchipper

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true living wage
A living income is $10 more than what you are making now. ;)
$15 X 2040 hours in a year = $30,600 per year. The idea of a living wage depends on where you live. California- no way! Here in east TN, not too shabby, but again, depends on where you live.
When I built custom rods, I added 10% to the components and figured $20 per hour for labor. I had to also collect federal excise tax and local and state taxes which were added as a separate line item.
 
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PatrickR

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I wonder how you came up with a 10% increase for the kits? In my experience in pricing,33% was a common number.
Each time I look at one of these pricing threads I get more convinced that its nearly impossible to make decent money at it. The real money would seem to be in supplying the hobby.
 

Pierre---

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You did not count anything for the workshop and the machines.

You count 15$ per hour. As if you could be in a production process 40 hours a week.
But you have to take care of your wood (buying, harvesting, felling, drying, sawing and so on), your machines and tools (buying, trying, choosing, repearing, grinding, oiling...), you have to spend time in writing on IAP, watching tricks on YouTube, trying new tools or kits, learning new techniques, vacuum cleaning the workshop, getting rid of the shavings, selling stuff on fairs including preparation and trip (a lot of time, right?), and having a coffee. I think 40$ would be more realistic.

You say: "This of course does not include any marketing time." Of course you should include it, to avoid a hard therapy. ;-) And you should include also marketing costs: fair booth, oil in the car, % you give to Etsy, Paypal or your banker (and if you don't, consider making your best to pay them a fortune).

You did not mention taxes, hmm?

As you understood, I think your prices are under evaluated.
 
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magpens

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Tim, thanks for your clarifying comments.

As you said, everyone's approach to this is interesting ... it is also valuable for me to hear yours. Thanks.
 

Wildman

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Figuring the cost to make something pretty easy to do even though everyone may approach it little differently. What didn't see in this thread is your cost to sell, again everyone will differ due to where they sell.

Enjoyed going to craft fairs and few stores in town that bought from me wholesale. No did not run my woodturning as a business because would not qualify under IRS regulations. Found much easier to enter amount made for the year as hobby income on line 20 on 1040 form.

Think using my KISS system approach has served me well!
 

JPW062

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The biggest insult I got was I donated a very nice large display for a charity. The items were sold $20-30. One item cost me $50 and sold for $50. I told the person running the sale I'll never get involved again.
Pretty normal with art in charity sales. I've seen things go for less than they cost to make frequent it.

It is art, not machine parts.

I know a few turners of very mediocre skill who are selling pens like crazy and selling whatever they can turn at ridiculous prices. They are likeable people that are social and work in and out of the right circles.

I know some curmudgeons who make incredible, truly art work, pens and can't understand why no one want to buy them for cost of kit.

Story has as much to do with it as anything else.

My pricing has nothing to do with my costs. If I can't make decent money on a combination of parts I don't turn it. I do calculate costs. In greater detail than most it seems. Driving to a craft fair may cost as much the table.

I'm relatively new and using it as a 4th or 5th income though. Actually, mostly using it to fund REAL woodworking. You know, furniture making.
 
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