Craft Supplies Enters the Game

[cowchaser]

Man, I hope not. This was supposed to be their year!:beat-up:

So, how bout them Cowboys?!

0 and 2, next week 0 and 3:biggrin:

Don't we hear it's their year every year. :biggrin::tongue:

 

[rjwolfe3]

True but I think because the Superbowl is going to be in Dallas then they were the team to beat. But from the way they are playing, I guess not.:frown: What sucks this is the first football season that I have been able to watch because I just switched my days off to Sun/Mon.

Man, I hope not. This was supposed to be their year!:beat-up:

So, how bout them Cowboys?!

0 and 2, next week 0 and 3:biggrin:

Don't we hear it's their year every year. :biggrin::tongue:

 

[sappha58]

Don't worry about those people, Curtis. Those of us who know are only going to buy from you.

Maybe you should think about getting a lawyer and protecting your idea?

I actually talked to Rex at CSUSA at the recent SWAT meeting. I showed him some of my stuff and he said he was already talking with an outfit from Florida. I asked him what they were charging and told him I could almost match it on my basic blanks. He said my blanks were too "uniquely individual" and it would be hard to sell them with stock photos and that he was probably going to go with the outfit from Florida. I told him that I was the originator of the idea as far as I knew and as far as anyone has been able to prove but that did not seem to matter. Oh well. I would not have made enough with what they want to pay anyway. I put WAY too much work into the prep of my wood.

 

[jttheclockman]

Why is it and this is soooooooooooo annoying when a topic gets going and there is good banter back and forth and then someone gets bored there is always this change the subject or pictures of dead horses showing up

Let the thread play out and if you don't want to read it move on. So tired of this.

To the original comment this comes up time and time again. You know it is just a matter of time when an idea is and will be copied and mass produced. Unless you have patents or whatever to protect your idea then you have no say about it. Sure you can gripe about it and we see alot of that but it will happen. If you want something to be your own then don't show it or take all measures to protect it.

As far as competing on selling a certain blank I guess this is a moral situation but this is what our society is built on. People see things and then put their own twist on it. They may use a different method of casting or different materials but there are just so many ideas to do to make a pen. People say come up with your own ideas. This is probably the hardest thing to do in this hobby and unless you have metal lathes and things of this nature to rebuild or redesign a pen shape then the only thing we have to play with is the blank we put on these kits. We are all starving for that next big break through. I see this so often in the scrollsawing world. People are always looking for that next type of scrolling work only because the ideas get harder and harder to come up with.

As far as members selling items here that maybe in competion with others so be it. If they feel they are doing no wrong and who are we to push the morals button??? You are the one making the purchase. You buy from whoever you want for whatever reason you want. No need to flaunt it.

I joined this forum a few years back because I thought this was a unique forum where the members share their ideas and help better the pen turning hobby. With more and more people turning pens the demand for more ideas and more parts is there and there are those that have jumped on to make a profit. So we see more and more of what we are reading in this thread and threads of past and will continue to read threads such as these. Want to stifle this process then do two things, put restrictions on this site as to who can view and stop doing tutorials and showing your new ideas.

Alright I have to go to work now so I am done with the speech. But I do hope to read more.

 

[jscola]

I'm sure Curtis's blanks are a lot better!! He makes quality blanks!! I would rather give my money to from someone in the IAP ! Joe

 

[rjwolfe3]

The reason that people are trying to change this subject is because some of us see nothing good coming from this thread. This will just become another crap thread and I am tired of seeing them pop up over and over again. Threads like this do not do anything to advance penturning at all. This is one of those threads that if you disagree with the status quo then you are going to get ridiculed. I really wish we could have these discussions without all of the personal feelings but you know, as well as I do, that we can't.

I was really hoping not to have to comment on this because I don't agree with those that are complaining about Woodcraft and CSUSA selling these blanks. I do not believe that Curtis has a monopoly on these blanks and I don't even believe that he was the very first one to come up with the idea. Can I prove that, no I can't. But if he wanted royalties from his idea then he should have patented it. I do think that other casters make just as good if not better blanks then what Curtis makes. El Mostro is one that comes to mind. I have blanks made from several casters on here, some even from Curtis. All have made beautiful pens. I have not tried any from the guy in Florida and probably won't because I think $20 is a waste when I can buy them cheaper here. And yes I do believe in supporting our IAP members. I buy from them before I buy from anyone else. I just think that these discussions about copyright and who made what first are very counterproductive and not necessary. I realize that I am in the minority here which is why I really do not try to post these comments.

I have said my peace and I will try to refrain from saying anything more about it. If you disagree with me, please send me a pm. I would rather this discussion be contained in pms then in an open forum where I believe nothing good will come out of it. JMHO:frown:

Why is it and this is soooooooooooo annoying when a topic gets going and there is good banter back and forth and then someone gets bored there is always this change the subject or pictures of dead horses showing up

Let the thread play out and if you don't want to read it move on. So tired of this.

To the original comment this comes up time and time again. You know it is just a matter of time when an idea is and will be copied and mass produced. Unless you have patents or whatever to protect your idea then you have no say about it. Sure you can gripe about it and we see alot of that but it will happen. If you want something to be your own then don't show it or take all measures to protect it.

As far as competing on selling a certain blank I guess this is a moral situation but this is what our society is built on. People see things and then put their own twist on it. They may use a different method of casting or different materials but there are just so many ideas to do to make a pen. People say come up with your own ideas. This is probably the hardest thing to do in this hobby and unless you have metal lathes and things of this nature to rebuild or redesign a pen shape then the only thing we have to play with is the blank we put on these kits. We are all starving for that next big break through. I see this so often in the scrollsawing world. People are always looking for that next type of scrolling work only because the ideas get harder and harder to come up with.

As far as members selling items here that maybe in competion with others so be it. If they feel they are doing no wrong and who are we to push the morals button??? You are the one making the purchase. You buy from whoever you want for whatever reason you want. No need to flaunt it.

I joined this forum a few years back because I thought this was a unique forum where the members share their ideas and help better the pen turning hobby. With more and more people turning pens the demand for more ideas and more parts is there and there are those that have jumped on to make a profit. So we see more and more of what we are reading in this thread and threads of past and will continue to read threads such as these. Want to stifle this process then do two things, put restrictions on this site as to who can view and stop doing tutorials and showing your new ideas.

Alright I have to go to work now so I am done with the speech. But I do hope to read more.

 

[jscola]

Hey how about our Detroit Lions! Joe

 

[MesquiteMan]

I think common sense dictates that you shouldn't take an idea you find
here and then try to sell it back to the same people you took it from..
but maybe I'm in the minority here..

And that is the crux of the whole issue as far as I am concerned.

I do know that there is nothing legal I can do, even if I wanted to. I choose not to seek a patent and that is the only somewhat protection for this type of thing.

 

[MesquiteMan]

I was really hoping not to have to comment on this because I don't agree with those that are complaining about Woodcraft and CSUSA selling these blanks. I do not believe that Curtis has a monopoly on these blanks and I don't even believe that he was the very first one to come up with the idea. Can I prove that, no I can't. But if he wanted royalties from his idea then he should have patented it. I do think that other casters make just as good if not better blanks then what Curtis makes. El Mostro is one that comes to mind. I have blanks made from several casters on here, some even from Curtis. All have made beautiful pens. I have not tried any from the guy in Florida and probably won't because I think $20 is a waste when I can buy them cheaper here. And yes I do believe in supporting our IAP members. I buy from them before I buy from anyone else. I just think that these discussions about copyright and who made what first are very counterproductive and not necessary. I realize that I am in the minority here which is why I really do not try to post these comments.

The problem is that this type of activity, though it may not be wrong in your eyes, is stiffing the sharing of ideas that IAP is supposed to be about. I absolutely know that when someone takes an idea that is shown here and starts copying it here and selling it here, then that stifles the sharing of future new ideas. With what I know now, I would never have written or shared a tutorial on Worthless Wood or Cactus blanks. If you wanted to copy me, you would have to figure it out yourself. I sure as heck would not give you a step by step pictorial on how to do it to compete with me!

And by the way, I have never said I was absolutely positively the first human to ever cast wood in resin. I do claim, positively, that I was the first person to do it specifically for pens and show it here on IAP and, as far as I know, anywhere else. It would be very presumptuous of me to assume no one in the world has ever done anything like this. Believe it or not, that is not my style. I also have never said anything at all about royalties.

As a matter of fact, there is a fellow here on IAP that wanted to start making WW blanks. He is the only one who contacted me and asked for my permission. I told him explicitly that he did not have to have my permission since I did not have a patent on the process and that he was free to do what he wanted to do. I did tell him that I would prefer that he NOT do it since I actively sell these blanks as part of my income but that I would NEVER do anything to try to prevent him from selling them. He decided to sell some blanks and offered to pay me royalties. I declined the offer since I did not think it was right to accept them.

All I am saying is that I think a little common courtesy here on IAP should prevail. If you see someone that comes up with a good idea and starts selling it, let them sell it. Don't try to come in and flood the market and undercut the original creative guy. That is the most sure fire way to stop the sharing of techniques.

This is all just my opinion and not the official position of IAP or "The Moderator's Office":biggrin:

 

[Penl8the]

Hi All,

I have been holding back on the debate/discussion.

Background:

I was a computer programmer long time ago. It was the B.I. Era (Before Internet). I had a few shareware programs and made a few $$$. Then a big software company incorporated some of my ideas into their OS. How did I feel? Pretty s@#ty, unhurt, violated, robbed, unrecognized, loosing $$$ that should come my way, and so on.

Here is my personal opinion.

• If you feel strongly about the person who has the original idea (for whatever he invented, pen blanks, molds, etc) and is still making high quality product, to show your support - GO BUY something from that person. It does not have to much. I am sure the original inventor would feel *very* appreciated.
• With the larger vendors, it is a love-hate relationship. Without these places where would we buy our pen kits? Group buy? I don't think there will be too many of us will sink tens of thousands of $$$ to buy from overseas. And the work goes behind the scene to sort the little plastic bags, package them, mailing them out to you fellow penmakers? Been there, done that - not doing it again.
• For those of us/you, when we/you selling something that is a variation of an original idea, GIVE the original inventor the CREDIT, or better yet, ask for PERMISSION. We did that in our term papers in school. It is called bibliography.
• In a term paper if you don't include an entry in your bibliography, it is called plagiarism. Synonyms for plagiarize are steal, pirate, infringe, etc.

OK I am off my soapbox now. Thanks for reading.

P.S. I am NOT asking for any rebuttal.

 

[jskeen]

I think common sense dictates that you shouldn't take an idea you find
here and then try to sell it back to the same people you took it from..
but maybe I'm in the minority here..

And that is the crux of the whole issue as far as I am concerned.

I do know that there is nothing legal I can do, even if I wanted to. I choose not to seek a patent and that is the only somewhat protection for this type of thing.

Absolutely correct. Is it illegal? No. Impolite, Tacky, unsportsmanlike, choose your adjective. But ultimately at that level, a private matter between individuals, best handled that way.

But here's the pinch for the rest of us. Supporting that type of behavior is just as unsavory GIVEN YOU KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING. The back story of this whole issue was never public knowledge UNTIL NOW.

Those who eat meat are on the same moral level as the butcher.

There. I said it. I feel better.

 

[Skye]

^ I agree. One question is, what if the originator puts out an inferior product? Granted I don't think I've seen this happen yet, but you never know. I just wonder if you/I'd change my mind then. Just food for thought. (or devil's advocate, whatever lol)

 

[PenMan1]

^ I agree. One question is, what if the originator puts out an inferior product? Granted I don't think I've seen this happen yet, but you never know. I just wonder if you/I'd change my mind then. Just food for thought. (or devil's advocate, whatever lol)

I have bought from a couple of bad vendors here. One just sells crappy products and the other just never delivers (or refunds your money, for that matter). I never had need to point these vendors out by name, because they apparently treated other IAP members the same way. These things have a way of working themselves out here!

The other side of the coin is that MOST of the vendors that I DO deal with here GO WELL BEYOND reasonable customer service. One vender here will actually take back his blanks, EVEN IF YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE WAY THE FINISHED PRODUCT LOOKS.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Soapbox time!

There's been a lot of posts about 'is it legal' when the real question should have been 'is it right'

I think the mentality of saying 'he didn't patent it, so it's fair game for me to sell it' is a surefire way to stifle creativity and idea sharing. If we, as penmakers, are not going to reward innovators, then we will soon become a forum entirely devoted to kits, purchasing blanks, and widespreak lack of creativity.

The IAP is in real danger of losing it's creativity and sharing attitude. The plethora of recent posts on cheaper alternatives and mass-market versions of items that IAP members created is proof of that. The IAP is a special place - it's not ebay, and it should not be thought of as solely a place to buy and sell blanks. The focus on that lately is, in my mind, a real issue. The way we've all seemed to buy into the 'that's cool - where can I buy it' mentality has resulted in this recent lack of creativity - or rather, the lack of sharing of our creativity.

It was begun as a community, and should remain a community. If we look at this community solely as a marketplace, that's where we begin to lose our closeknit identity.

We could all 'lawyer up' and protect our own intellectual property at great cost to ourselves, and refuse to share any new innovative ideas - or we can respect the creativity and innovation of new blank-makers and new ideas, and allow the inventor to sell them (if he/she wishes), or make them ourselves for our own use, if that's what you'd rather do...but taking someone's idea and selling it is not filling a niche - it's stealing an idea.

Morals aside, the creativity of this community is something that should be continued to be shared, so we can all grow and innovate together. Otherwise, we'll stagnate - and that would be a real shame.

Ok, time to get off of my soapbox!

 

[DCBluesman]

Dear Lord, thank you for keeping one hand on my shoulder and the other over my keyboard for this thread.

 

[LandfillLumber]

Not much to say on this one really they have milled lumber since time began who do I ask for permission or give royalties to on that one(God him self,LOL)?As this is partly how I make a living.The blue jean blanks I make are not my idea they are adapted from knife making,and still the knife thing was not my idea either.I don't see anyone making the blue jean blank the way I make them,but who really cares if "JOE" of the IAP/or other site starts to make them buy the hundreds.I don't care.Most all ideas are adapted from other good ones as with most inventions(only a different way to do it most the time).Buy from who you want to and I hope its from IAP members when ever possible.My two cents not that anyone cares,lol,Victor

 

[jttheclockman]

Soapbox time!

There's been a lot of posts about 'is it legal' when the real question should have been 'is it right'

I think the mentality of saying 'he didn't patent it, so it's fair game for me to sell it' is a surefire way to stifle creativity and idea sharing. If we, as penmakers, are not going to reward innovators, then we will soon become a forum entirely devoted to kits, purchasing blanks, and widespreak lack of creativity.

The IAP is in real danger of losing it's creativity and sharing attitude. The plethora of recent posts on cheaper alternatives and mass-market versions of items that IAP members created is proof of that. The IAP is a special place - it's not ebay, and it should not be thought of as solely a place to buy and sell blanks. The focus on that lately is, in my mind, a real issue. The way we've all seemed to buy into the 'that's cool - where can I buy it' mentality has resulted in this recent lack of creativity - or rather, the lack of sharing of our creativity.

It was begun as a community, and should remain a community. If we look at this community solely as a marketplace, that's where we begin to lose our closeknit identity.

We could all 'lawyer up' and protect our own intellectual property at great cost to ourselves, and refuse to share any new innovative ideas - or we can respect the creativity and innovation of new blank-makers and new ideas, and allow the inventor to sell them (if he/she wishes), or make them ourselves for our own use, if that's what you'd rather do...but taking someone's idea and selling it is not filling a niche - it's stealing an idea.

Morals aside, the creativity of this community is something that should be continued to be shared, so we can all grow and innovate together. Otherwise, we'll stagnate - and that would be a real shame.

Ok, time to get off of my soapbox!

With this all said, what makes what CSUSA or any other big player different than what the members are doing here??? How do we know what is being said by via PM or email. Like I said who are we to judge the morality of this. The thing that has to be remember we are not the only pen makers in the world. This site is a small sampling as to what is being done out there. There is too creativety here and some of this is piggybacked onto what we see others are doing. An idea may come along and be expanded on and developed to a better degree. Many people here have chosen not to get involved with casting and it is not for everyone. There is the expense, the danger and so forth so they look for the goods sold here because they too either want these products for themselves or want to include in their sales. What is wrong with that.

I am not defending what the big players do about things they see here and mass produce but what right do we have to say this is wrong. Sure in a perfect world any ideas shown here stay here and only the creator can produce them. Wake up that is not the real world. I think that would stifle us also. When someone makes something that they saw here or read a tutorial on do you want credits rolling on the bottom of every post. What if we do not know where or who?? I think the (IS IT LEGAL??) is a great question and I only wish we did have some straight forward answers but as in many posts it just is not that simple and there is so much grey area in there.

As far as multiple people selling similar blanks is between the sellers and Like I said how do we know if communication was or was not open.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

With this all said, what makes what CSUSA or any other big player different than what the members are doing here???

In my opinion, nothing at all

How do we know what is being said by via PM or email. Like I said who are we to judge the morality of this. The thing that has to be remember we are not the only pen makers in the world. This site is a small sampling as to what is being done out there. There is too creativety here and some of this is piggybacked onto what we see others are doing. An idea may come along and be expanded on and developed to a better degree. Many people here have chosen not to get involved with casting and it is not for everyone. There is the expense, the danger and so forth so they look for the goods sold here because they too either want these products for themselves or want to include in their sales. What is wrong with that.

I am not defending what the big players do about things they see here and mass produce but what right do we have to say this is wrong.

Sure in a perfect world any ideas shown here stay here and only the creator can produce them. Wake up that is not the real world.
Maybe not, but it should be; and it might not matter one iota in the grand scheme of things, but we each make our own decisions. The journey of a 1000 miles begins with the first step, or better yet, with the decision to start walking!

I think that would stifle us also. When someone makes something that they saw here or read a tutorial on do you want credits rolling on the bottom of every post. What if we do not know where or who?? I think the (IS IT LEGAL??) is a great question and I only wish we did have some straight forward answers but as in many posts it just is not that simple and there is so much grey area in there.

As far as multiple people selling similar blanks is between the sellers and Like I said how do we know if communication was or was not open.

Just my opinion.

 

[titan2]

> Those who eat meat are on the same moral level as the butcher. <


What's wrong with the butcher?

God gave us critters so that we could have fritters!!!



Barney