Copyright - fusion and Mach 3

[tjseagrove]

When Bill Gates sold his DOS program to IBM he really didn't sell it, He gave it away so every PC will be capable of running Microsoft programs. Now we are for the sake of clarification, Nickel and Dime hobbyist. P&C will go after those that commissioned these blade holders, ie. PSI, Craft Supplys... before they come at us. NOW as others have said, they rather have someone buy their blades than **** and moan over what we make.

Yes he did sell it...IBM paid for most of the development of PCDOS but allowed Gates to also market the program under the name MSDOS. Bad decision on IBM's part. IBM also saved intel's bacon by buying 20% of the company and pumping in a lot of money then selling out after Intel was on firm footing.

Let's get this all straight. IBM approached Bill Gates about an operating system for their computer. He referred them to Digital Research who had CP/M available but the owners wife would not sign the NDA so IBM went back to Gates. Bill Gates actually didn't have anything do went and purchased QDOS from Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products keeping his negotiations with IBM secret so walked away with it for $50,000. He then negotiated the deal with IBM to license the operating system but talked them into letting him keep the rights to offer it elsewhere. The rest is history.
5762

Close but no cigar! 1) IBM did in fact offer CP/M as an alternative operating system 6 months after the initial offering of the PC. It did not sell well because it cost 6 times the $40.00 charged for PC-DOS.

2) It was an internal decision to go with an outside developer for PC-DOS because IBM had lost a series of copyright infringement lawsuits where they had looked at products, then developed their own. It was always IBM's plan for Microsoft to own PC-DOS. Bill Gates did not out-smart IBM as has often been implied. That decision was perfectly in keeping with IBM's original marketing plan for the PC where IBM made the interface specifications immediately available for other developers to use.

3) Microsoft was not contacted until July 1980 and the contract was signed in November 1980 first shipments were in February 1981. Microsoft did buy their version of DOS from Seattle Computer Products and modified it to meet IBM Specifications. Going back to Holz Machaniker's post...Since originally IBM quickly had 85% of the PC market and IBM was selling PC-DOS and MS-DOS was microsoft's bread and butter, they weren't giving it away. They did give away software to displace Netscape as the dominant browser software.

1) IBM did in fact offer CP/M "AFTER" the fact but in the run up had passed on it. AS you said it was way more expensive.

2) Outsmarting IBM, not really implied, but in hindsight, where the market went it was not good for IBM in the long run. BUt who could have seen the future in November 1980....oh yeah, Steve Jobs did :biggrin:

3) PC-DOS and MS-DOS were "licensed" not sold.

Ultimately, everything I stated lines up perfectly with the history. I decided to skip using 10 pages for all the details. My main "correction", it was licensed and not sold.
131

 

[Skie_M]

Netscape Navigator = Mozilla Firefox.

 

[Smitty37]

When Bill Gates sold his DOS program to IBM he really didn't sell it, He gave it away so every PC will be capable of running Microsoft programs. Now we are for the sake of clarification, Nickel and Dime hobbyist. P&C will go after those that commissioned these blade holders, ie. PSI, Craft Supplys... before they come at us. NOW as others have said, they rather have someone buy their blades than **** and moan over what we make.

Yes he did sell it...IBM paid for most of the development of PCDOS but allowed Gates to also market the program under the name MSDOS. Bad decision on IBM's part. IBM also saved intel's bacon by buying 20% of the company and pumping in a lot of money then selling out after Intel was on firm footing.

Let's get this all straight. IBM approached Bill Gates about an operating system for their computer. He referred them to Digital Research who had CP/M available but the owners wife would not sign the NDA so IBM went back to Gates. Bill Gates actually didn't have anything do went and purchased QDOS from Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products keeping his negotiations with IBM secret so walked away with it for $50,000. He then negotiated the deal with IBM to license the operating system but talked them into letting him keep the rights to offer it elsewhere. The rest is history.
5762

Close but no cigar! 1) IBM did in fact offer CP/M as an alternative operating system 6 months after the initial offering of the PC. It did not sell well because it cost 6 times the $40.00 charged for PC-DOS.

2) It was an internal decision to go with an outside developer for PC-DOS because IBM had lost a series of copyright infringement lawsuits where they had looked at products, then developed their own. It was always IBM's plan for Microsoft to own PC-DOS. Bill Gates did not out-smart IBM as has often been implied. That decision was perfectly in keeping with IBM's original marketing plan for the PC where IBM made the interface specifications immediately available for other developers to use.

3) Microsoft was not contacted until July 1980 and the contract was signed in November 1980 first shipments were in February 1981. Microsoft did buy their version of DOS from Seattle Computer Products and modified it to meet IBM Specifications. Going back to Holz Machaniker's post...Since originally IBM quickly had 85% of the PC market and IBM was selling PC-DOS and MS-DOS was microsoft's bread and butter, they weren't giving it away. They did give away software to displace Netscape as the dominant browser software.

1) IBM did in fact offer CP/M "AFTER" the fact but in the run up had passed on it. AS you said it was way more expensive.

2) Outsmarting IBM, not really implied, but in hindsight, where the market went it was not good for IBM in the long run. BUt who could have seen the future in November 1980....oh yeah, Steve Jobs did :biggrin:

3) PC-DOS and MS-DOS were "licensed" not sold.

Ultimately, everything I stated lines up perfectly with the history. I decided to skip using 10 pages for all the details. My main "correction", it was licensed and not sold.
131

Yea but I was there - I received my first PC in February 1981 with the 1st shipments and actually spoke with some of the developers before the PC was announced.

Zenith also actually had a DOS and used CP/M before IBM even entered the PC market. They were also partnered with Microsoft.

You missed the movie if you think Gates "outsmarting IBM" is not often implied or actually stated.

 

[tbroye]

Wasn't the PC that were not IBM cal IBM Clones and had a license to product them. I know some of the early software was not compatible with non IBM PC'S. There were work arounds and all kinds of pirated and hacked stuff but there were some law suits about intellectual properties. I remember there were labels on software that said if would work with DOS 2.11 or higher. That was so long a go I remember all the facts

 

[Smitty37]

Wasn't the PC that were not IBM cal IBM Clones and had a license to product them. I know some of the early software was not compatible with non IBM PC'S. There were work arounds and all kinds of pirated and hacked stuff but there were some law suits about intellectual properties. I remember there were labels on software that said if would work with DOS 2.11 or higher. That was so long a go I remember all the facts

Yes the non-IBM PC's were at first called IBM Clones (actually the term was used for a few years). No clones were not licensed, IBM actually provided the interface specifications to anyone who wanted them. (Computers are not patentable)and the only thing IBM did not release was the BIOS (built in operating system) that was protected by copyright which IBM did enforce vigorously.

 

[tbroye]

Thanks Smitty. It was quite the deal back in the day. I had a Tandy 1000 and remember all the talk in the various magazine (No internet) and Bulletin Boards.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Smitty, Bios= Basic input/output system

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty, Bios= Basic input/output system

Not at IBM in the 1980s. It meant Built In Operating System. It was a permanent micro coded program contained in Read Only Solid State Memory that allow the system reach a state where it could load the disc operating system. I personally modified BIOS in IBM PC's that were modified for use in Test Equipment. EDIT when I say modified I actually mean replaced the original BIOS chips with our own.

 

[Sylvanite]

Smitty, Bios= Basic input/output system

Not at IBM in the 1980s. It meant Built In Operating System.

Sorry Smitty, but BIOS never stood for "built in operating system" -- not even in the 80's. I was an OS/2 programmer, and a PS/2 BIOS programmer, and the architect / lead programmer for IBM SurePath BIOS (the version IBM licensed to other PC manufacturers). Originally, I recall BIOS being an acronym for "Basic Input / Output Services", but I no longer have a copy of the PC1 source code so I can't verify that (although I do have an amusing story about the PC/AT BIOS). I just checked my IBM Personal Computer Standard manual (the SurePath BIOS technical reference), and the Phoenix System BIOS tech ref (which I keep for sentimental reasons). Both of them define BIOS as "Basic Input / Output System", so that's the official answer.

Regards,
Eric

 

[tbroye]

I remeber now AT was better than just a PC both were sold. It would have cost me $800 to ad a 10mb hard drive to my computer and I had to change the BIOS chip on top of it. My computer had to becom a Tandy 2000 if I remember correctly Them were the days.

 

[Skie_M]

How did we get this sidetracked?

I need to go shave ...

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty, Bios= Basic input/output system

Not at IBM in the 1980s. It meant Built In Operating System.

Sorry Smitty, but BIOS never stood for "built in operating system" -- not even in the 80's. I was an OS/2 programmer, and a PS/2 BIOS programmer, and the architect / lead programmer for IBM SurePath BIOS (the version IBM licensed to other PC manufacturers). Originally, I recall BIOS being an acronym for "Basic Input / Output Services", but I no longer have a copy of the PC1 source code so I can't verify that (although I do have an amusing story about the PC/AT BIOS). I just checked my IBM Personal Computer Standard manual (the SurePath BIOS technical reference), and the Phoenix System BIOS tech ref (which I keep for sentimental reasons). Both of them define BIOS as "Basic Input / Output System", so that's the official answer.

Regards,
Eric

I worked on some of the original PCs (there was never a PC1)modifying them for use in test equipment and my department did some of the Beta Testing on the XT/370. And, at one point we were the largest internal user of PC/370 machines which we acquired directly from the developers at IBM. I never heard the term Basic input output system used. Also BIT stood for Built-in-Test and BITE meant Built-in-Test Equipment. And, in spite of the huge sales, the PC was never really very profitable for IBM.

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty, Bios= Basic input/output system

Not at IBM in the 1980s. It meant Built In Operating System.

Sorry Smitty, but BIOS never stood for "built in operating system" -- not even in the 80's. I was an OS/2 programmer, and a PS/2 BIOS programmer, and the architect / lead programmer for IBM SurePath BIOS (the version IBM licensed to other PC manufacturers). Originally, I recall BIOS being an acronym for "Basic Input / Output Services", but I no longer have a copy of the PC1 source code so I can't verify that (although I do have an amusing story about the PC/AT BIOS). I just checked my IBM Personal Computer Standard manual (the SurePath BIOS technical reference), and the Phoenix System BIOS tech ref (which I keep for sentimental reasons). Both of them define BIOS as "Basic Input / Output System", so that's the official answer.

Regards,
Eric

The PS2 was not the same PC as the IBM PC and in fact was an unsuccessful attempt by IBM to put Pandora back in the box. It had a different I/O channel that the PC Clone makers refused to accept keeping what became called the ISA bus. I had a PS2 both on my desk at work and at home and it was a very good machine but lost IBM a lot of market share. My department was also involved in beta testing the AT/370 and had quite a lot of them. I also had an IBM portable which was really an XT with a built in monitor --- Calling it portable was a stretch it took two people to carry it if you wanted to move in any distance. The PS2 was the last IBM PC I had, after that I went to clones.

 

[tbroye]

Ok back on track. I use Harry"'s raors like a Mach 3 but the holder and blades are a lot cheaper. Head is simular to a Gillette but how if fastens to the handle is different who would you contact to see about have kits made to fite differn heads/blade holder? I thing Harry makes their profit on the other products like shave cream and aftr shave Right now being retire I have enough blade to last at least a year if not longer, shaving may 3 times a week. i like shave I get and feel the money I spent was worht it I know there are other shave clubs around woneder what their razors are like mechanicaly ?

 

[Smitty37]

Ok back on track. I use Harry"'s raors like a Mach 3 but the holder and blades are a lot cheaper. Head is simular to a Gillette but how if fastens to the handle is different who would you contact to see about have kits made to fite differn heads/blade holder? I thing Harry makes their profit on the other products like shave cream and aftr shave Right now being retire I have enough blade to last at least a year if not longer, shaving may 3 times a week. i like shave I get and feel the money I spent was worht it I know there are other shave clubs around woneder what their razors are like mechanicaly ?

You want to have someone make kits that use a different holder? You would have to interest someone who deals with or is a kit manufacturer and convince them there is a large enough market to make it worth their while.

 

[Skie_M]

Alright, so Harry's uses a different connector technology ....

I would suggest you take one of Harry's razors handle) and see about "re-skinning" it, first of all.

If that doesn't look feasible, you could send a spare razor head with cartridge off to a kit maker and see if he can replicate it for you, while adding an attachment option on the back to make it kit friendly.



Mmm ... getting flashbacks of computer terminology ...

ISA - Industry Standard Architecture ... (common in IBM-compatible PCs)
MCA - Micro-Channel Architecture ... (common in Apple-based PCs)
AGP - Accelerated Graphics Port ... (common on more recent PC mainboards)

 

[Sylvanite]

I worked on some of the original PCs (there was never a PC1)modifying them for use in test equipment and my department did some of the Beta Testing on the XT/370.... . Also BIT stood for Built-in-Test and BITE meant Built-in-Test Equipment.

When I said "PC1", I meant the original IBM PC - which is how many people differentiated between it and all the subsequent "personal computers". I don't need to list all the variants that were ever made, do I? Thank you for helping test the XT/370, but I was an actual BIOS developer (and eventual lead developer) at IBM Entry Systems Division in Boca Raton. I can assure you that nobody there ever referred to BIOS as an "operating system" It simply isn't one.

Also, until now, I have never heard anybody use the terms "bit" or "byte" as you define them. The IBM PC built in test (in ROM along with the BIOS), was called POST, which is short for "Power-On-Self-Test".

Regards,
Eric

 

[Smitty37]

I worked on some of the original PCs (there was never a PC1)modifying them for use in test equipment and my department did some of the Beta Testing on the XT/370.... . Also BIT stood for Built-in-Test and BITE meant Built-in-Test Equipment.

When I said "PC1", I meant the original IBM PC - which is how many people differentiated between it and all the subsequent "personal computers". I don't need to list all the variants that were ever made, do I? Thank you for helping test the XT/370, but I was an actual BIOS developer (and eventual lead developer) at IBM Entry Systems Division in Boca Raton. I can assure you that nobody there ever referred to BIOS as an "operating system" It simply isn't one.

Also, until now, I have never heard anybody use the terms "bit" or "byte" as you define them. The IBM PC built in test (in ROM along with the BIOS), was called POST, which is short for "Power-On-Self-Test".

Regards,
Eric

Well we now know you have never worked in Test Equipment Engineering and it was BITE not byte.

Re BIOS. I could be thinking about BASIC. If you were there at the start you must know that the original PC could be ordered without any disk drive and had a serial cassette port. PC DOS was not required for such a machine (I don't know if any were ever actually built without a disk drive) I did use a cassette on my home PC but had two disk drives as well. Anyway the BASIC language was (or could be built in) and came up if you powered on with no disk in either drive. That machine had enough of a built in operating system to run uncompiled BASIC programs. That could be where the BIOS came from. At my age my memory is still good but not perfect.

If you wonder about the order of the variations PC, XT, XT-370. Portable, AT, AT-370 then PS2. I used all of them at work, at home or both. I also installed a lot of upgrades some IBM and some OEM (more OEM)

 

[Sylvanite]

Well we now know you have never worked in Test Equipment Engineering and it was BITE not byte.

And, we know that you never worked in BIOS Development. I know that I spelled "byte" not "bite". It was intentional.

Re BIOS. I could be thinking about BASIC. If you were there at the start you must know that the original PC could be ordered without any disk drive and had a serial cassette port. PC DOS was not required for such a machine (I don't know if any were ever actually built without a disk drive) I did use a cassette on my home PC but had two disk drives as well. Anyway the BASIC language was (or could be built in) and came up if you powered on with no disk in either drive. That machine had enough of a built in operating system to run uncompiled BASIC programs. That could be where the BIOS came from.

Yes, I am well aware that the original PC could be ordered without disk drives. I personally bought one in that configuration (16K memory, no diskette drives, CGA card, and green-screen). It came with IBM PC Diagnostics on a cassette tape (the only part of that machine that I still have). The only problem was that IBM did not sell a cassette cable -- but that was ok, because the pinout for the cassette connector was the same as for the Tandy TRS-80 (and Radio Shack sold that cable).

In addition to the ROM BIOS, the IBM PC had ROM BASIC, which was a BASIC interpreter written by Microsoft that BIOS jumped to if it couldn't find a diskette boot sector to load. Oh, and BASIC stands for "Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code". BIOS did not come from BASIC, and BASIC did not come from BIOS. Neither is an operating system.

If you wonder about the order of the variations PC, XT, XT-370. Portable, AT, AT-370 then PS2.

I don't wonder. I touched them all (although I never actually used the *370 machines which were really just the regular PCs with a 370 adapter installed). You left out several, including the XT-286, the PC-Jr, and the PS/1 line. "PS2" was actually "PS/2" and was a whole line of computers (with, as you noted the proprietary microChannel bus). There was also the ThinkPad series, not to mention the PC Servers.

None of that, however, has anything to do with penturning, let alone disposable razor head intellectual property. So, I'll apologize to the public for the thread hijack, and let it (hopefully) return to the original topic.

Sincerely,
Eric

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Razors guys, not computers!

 

[Smitty37]

Razors guys, not computers!

Hi. The OP sent me a PM long ago telling me he had the information he was looking for....And thanking me. So I thought it was harmless to talk a little about the past.

 

[Gregf]

Regardless, it was a fun trip down memory lane.