colorfill help, please!!

[ed4copies]

As part of the Cancer Awareness Project, I want to make a video showing how to eliminate the wooden ribbon and fill the void with whatever color you wish, to create the ribbon YOU want.

Sounded easy, so I set about doing it with 5 minute epoxy and acrylic paint. Bought the primary colors and used blue and red and white and got a nice lavender--things went swimmingly. UNTIL I turned it!!

Then I discovered a few tiny bubbles that needed to be filled. Well, the color did not match perfectly, so I abandoned that path and went on to 30 minute epoxy.

In filling the ribbon, the 30 minute was more liquid and it drained out of the recess. When I came back it was very thin. So, I created a couple dams on either side of the ribbon cavity (from plastic wood--wood filler) and refilled. The 30 minute epoxy dried and I turned it. The center was "mushy". And there was still ONE bubble, which I attempted to correct with a felt tip.

All-in-all, I am not happy with the results.

Does anyone have a "sure thing" way to fill a cavity of this size? Or even a great theory that I can use to experiment??

Thanks to all who contribute input---I really want to get this on YouTube, but it has to work without "gimmicks"!!

Here is the pen I finished--the center is a different shade of lavender--not an acceptable result.

 

[walshjp17]

Have you thought of crushed stone/powder? The drawback is it will take quite a bit of it for the ribbon. I used crushed stone on a skull and cross bones where I replaces the black eyes and nose with crushed red stone.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Hi Ed - I'm guessing you want a low tech approach that doesn't use expensive equipment. That means no vacuum chambers, pressure pots or roto-casting.

I have a couple approaches that have worked for me.

With Resin:

Turn to finished size (or just slightly over). Thicken the resin with something like thixo hp (fumed silica) or talc. You can even use very fine sawdust (no exotic oily woods), but the inorganic fillers will give you more reliable results. (Don't breathe sanding dust from silica or talc). Thicken to the consistency of peanut butter. Fill the void by pressing in the resin using your gloved fingers. Press the resin in really well to expel any air.

With epoxy, fill to just very very slightly above the surface. With PR resin, you need to slightly overfill to compensate for shrinkage. If your surface looks good and is bubble free after filling, it will look good and be bubble free after turning.

With wood putty:

Tint a neutral wood putty to the color you want and then press it into the void. Press hard to expel air. Over fill slightly. Sand flush to finished surface when dry. I prefer elmers "STAINABLE" wood filler max, but any putty that you have the ability to tint will work.

Other stuff:

You can use acrylic paints and other materials that are sold to sign makers for colorfill, but they tend to be a lot fussier. Even plaster can be used. Most of these things would need a clear coat on a pen.

Ed

 

[alphageek]

Hmmm.. How about polymer clay? Just spitballing ideas.

 

[ed4copies]

Have you thought of crushed stone/powder? The drawback is it will take quite a bit of it for the ribbon. I used crushed stone on a skull and cross bones where I replaces the black eyes and nose with crushed red stone.

Thanks John!!

I did not "go here" because I thought the selection of colors was small, Dawn says I am poorly informed (NEVER wrong!). Do you know of a source for many colors, cheap?

Thanks for your continued input!
Ed

 

[BRobbins629]

Hmmm.. How about polymer clay? Just spitballing ideas.

Absolutely - I do this all the time. Even if there are some small areas that have voids which is rare, easy to patch and refill with perfect color match. I've done similar fills with epoxy and PR and polymer clay wins hands down. Low cost, many colors, finishes well.

Oh - and it doesn't bleed into wood as many other options.

 

[ed4copies]

Hi Ed - I'm guessing you want a low tech approach that doesn't use expensive equipment. That means no vacuum chambers, pressure pots or roto-casting.

Good guess and absolutely correct!

I have a couple approaches that have worked for me.

With Resin:

Turn to finished size (or just slightly over). Thicken the resin with something like thixo hp (fumed silica) or talc. You can even use very fine sawdust (no exotic oily woods), but the inorganic fillers will give you more reliable results. (Don't breathe sanding dust from silica or talc). Thicken to the consistency of peanut butter. Fill the void by pressing in the resin using your gloved fingers. Press the resin in really well to expel any air.

With epoxy, fill to just very very slightly above the surface. With PR resin, you need to slightly overfill to compensate for shrinkage. If your surface looks good and is bubble free after filling, it will look good and be bubble free after turning.

Although WE do have it, I think most turners will not have PR readily available. So, I will avoid that.
The Epoxy was what gave me fits yesterday---I think it has to be a certain viscosity to work right. If you know of one brand and type that works, please tell me!!!!

With wood putty:

Tint a neutral wood putty to the color you want and then press it into the void. Press hard to expel air. Over fill slightly. Sand flush to finished surface when dry. I prefer elmers "STAINABLE" wood filler max, but any putty that you have the ability to tint will work.

THIS is the path I was going to explore today---thanks for the brand, I will visit my local hardware and get some Elmers stainable!!!!

Other stuff:

You can use acrylic paints and other materials that are sold to sign makers for colorfill, but they tend to be a lot fussier. Even plaster can be used. Most of these things would need a clear coat on a pen.

I am not opposed to a clear coat, but we will try the wood filler first---that sounds easy enough for anyone to do it successfully--I HOPE!
Ed

Thank you Ed!!! I sincerely appreciate the help!!!!
(one of the OTHER Eds)!!

 

[ed4copies]

Hmmm.. How about polymer clay? Just spitballing ideas.

Absolutely - I do this all the time. Even if there are some small areas that have voids which is rare, easy to patch and refill with perfect color match. I've done similar fills with epoxy and PR and polymer clay wins hands down. Low cost, many colors, finishes well.

Oh - and it doesn't bleed into wood as many other options.

OK, correct my misinformation, please:
Doesn't polymer clay have to be baked?? When baked does it not shrink? Please give me more hints!!!!!

 

[Ed McDonnell]

One problem I had with polymer clay was that it would sometimes pop out a month / year down the road. When I was using it, I found using a liquid polymer clay to wet the void before pushing in the clay really helped the adhesion. Some woods also don't take kindly to be baked with the clay. They evidence their unhappiness with big frowning cracks!


Ed

 

[ed4copies]

One problem I had with polymer clay was that it would sometimes pop out a month / year down the road. When I was using it, I found using a liquid polymer clay to wet the void before pushing in the clay really helped the adhesion. Some woods also don't take kindly to be baked with the clay. They evidence their unhappiness with big frowning cracks!


Ed

So, you DID bake it!! OK, THEN?? turn???? Suppose I do that, and then put a CA finish on it---wouldn't the CA hold everything together?

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Ed - This is in response to your question about type / brand of epoxy.

The type / brand won't matter. Just thicken it to a peanut butter consistency. Mix the two parts before you start to add the thickener. And make sure you mix really well and don't miss any spots in the cup (or you end up with the uncured spots).

BUT, considering you said that you are concerned your audience won't have PR, then they are also are unlikely to have the right material to thicken epoxy. Sanding dust can be used, but there are so many species of wood that will inhibit the cure of epoxy that this is unlikely to be a satisfactory mass market solution.

In retrospect, I would say forget the epoxy for this mass market application.

Wood putty or polymer clay may be your best solution. I've had good luck with wood putty. It won't be shiny though unless you put a film finish on it.

Ed

 

[Ed McDonnell]

So, you DID bake it!! OK, THEN?? turn???? Suppose I do that, and then put a CA finish on it---wouldn't the CA hold everything together?

[very biased opinion mode on] Since you are talking about inlaying in WOOD blanks, I think you will find a CA finish to be unsatisfactory. The wood is going to move differently than the clay (which can be considered "non moving"). CA has a lot of positive qualities, but flexibility isn't one of them. The progression from cracks to partial delamination would probably not be viewed favorably by the pen owner. Polyurethane might be a better choice, but I wouldn't want to count on a film finish to hold things together. [very biased opinion mode off]

Ed

 

[ed4copies]

Ed - This is in response to your question about type / brand of epoxy.

The type / brand won't matter. Just thicken it to a peanut butter consistency. Mix the two parts before you start to add the thickener. And make sure you mix really well and don't miss any spots in the cup (or you end up with the uncured spots).

BUT, considering you said that you are concerned your audience won't have PR, then they are also are unlikely to have the right material to thicken epoxy. Sanding dust can be used, but there are so many species of wood that will inhibit the cure of epoxy that this is unlikely to be a satisfactory mass market solution.

In retrospect, I would say forget the epoxy for this mass market application.

Wood putty or polymer clay may be your best solution. I've had good luck with wood putty. It won't be shiny though unless you put a film finish on it.

Ed

"Household products" would include baby powder or talc---wouldn't that work to thicken our epoxy?

But once thicker, will I get bubbles?? How to "pat down" into this variable size opening??

 

[BRobbins629]

I've baked a bunch with wood and some with PR and have used CA finish after baking. Never had any fall out. Ed is right about insurance with adhesion. I have used 50/50 mixture of white glue and water to coat area to be filled.

(See Dawn's pen cup)

1 test is worth 1000 opinions

 

[ed4copies]

So, you DID bake it!! OK, THEN?? turn???? Suppose I do that, and then put a CA finish on it---wouldn't the CA hold everything together?

[very biased opinion mode on] Since you are talking about inlaying in WOOD blanks, I think you will find a CA finish to be unsatisfactory. The wood is going to move differently than the clay (which can be considered "non moving"). CA has a lot of positive qualities, but flexibility isn't one of them. The progression from cracks to partial delamination would probably not be viewed favorably by the pen owner. Polyurethane might be a better choice, but I wouldn't want to count on a film finish to hold things together. [very biased opinion mode off]

Ed

"Very biased opinion mode" is extremely ACCEPTABLE, when backed by dozens of hours of experimentation, causing said bias!!! Thank you!!!

 

[Ed McDonnell]

"Household products" would include baby powder or talc---wouldn't that work to thicken our epoxy?

But once thicker, will I get bubbles?? How to "pat down" into this variable size opening??

Most baby powders don't contain talc anymore because of the cancer hazard. I'm not sure what corn starch (what I think is used now) would do in epoxy. I also don't know what scent additives might due to the epoxy.

Thicker epoxy will tend to trap more bubbles, but you just forcefully press it into the void (working from one side to the other, leaving an escape route for air) and then smooth the surface level with the wood. If the surface looks good at this point, it will look good when cured. You don't care if there are bubbles in the epoxy under the surface. The epoxy will be opaque and you won't see them.

Ed

 

[ed4copies]

Still expect the next experiment to be the wood putty---that seems most likely to be easy and successful----but then, that is what I thought about epoxy-----YESTERDAY!!

 

[dgscott]

pm sent

 

[ashaw]

Ed
I use epoxy color fill all of the time. Yes I do get some bubbles. I am going to try to put some flame to it. That should clear up the bubble problem. I use 5 minute epoxy with acrylic paint (just a small amount).

 

[mtgrizzly52]

Ed,

Are you aware of the UV cured epoxy products used by fly tyers and custom rod builders? I have not used the products personally yet, but I've been doing a lot of research because I'm interested in the product and process. I have contacted one of the manufacturers that seems to have the most appropriate product for doing what you are trying to do. I've asked about being able to color their product and how it adheres to wood and pr materials. I should get an answer by tomorrow.

If it sounds promising, then I'll let you know who to contact for further information because I'm sure you will have many questions I would never think of.

Hope this helps!

Rick (mtgrizzly52)

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[ed4copies]

Sounds interesting, Rick. Please do keep me "in the loop"!!

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Monty]

I'm assuming you've turned the blank close to final size. If so, I've successfully used these these methods:
1 - Use colored sand (available at Michael's or Hobby Lobby) to fill the void and use thin CA to set it (do this in several layers), then turn to final size. This does dull your tool rather quickly, but a carbide tool works great.
2 - You can mix powdered pigments like those from Coast Scents or Pearl Ex with thick or gel CA and slather the mix in the void, then turn. You should have about 30-60 seconds of working time before the CA sets up.

 

[jttheclockman]

Not quite sure why you want to do this???? Especially if you are gearing this to people who do not have the resources to do it. These people in my opinion will order the kit or blank to whatever color they are after. I am sure these laser guys can do this with wood or acrlyics.I assume.

If it helps, my suggestion would to be to concentrate on a form that would allow the pouring of acrylic resin of any color you imagination can think of. Maybe some testing would be needed for such items. My first thoughts would be silly putty. My second thought would be a silicone of some type. All this stuff will turn off after you get down to proper size. Of course you do the fill before this. We all have done resin blanks with no bubbles and no pressure or vac. Just heat the resin as always. Just my 2 cents. By the way epoxy can be subsituted instead of resin if that is the way you want to go but to me would be far more expensive. While thinking about it, has anyone tried coloring silicone???

As part of the Cancer Awareness Project, I want to make a video showing how to eliminate the wooden ribbon and fill the void with whatever color you wish, to create the ribbon YOU want.

Sounded easy, so I set about doing it with 5 minute epoxy and acrylic paint. Bought the primary colors and used blue and red and white and got a nice lavender--things went swimmingly. UNTIL I turned it!!

Then I discovered a few tiny bubbles that needed to be filled. Well, the color did not match perfectly, so I abandoned that path and went on to 30 minute epoxy.

In filling the ribbon, the 30 minute was more liquid and it drained out of the recess. When I came back it was very thin. So, I created a couple dams on either side of the ribbon cavity (from plastic wood--wood filler) and refilled. The 30 minute epoxy dried and I turned it. The center was "mushy". And there was still ONE bubble, which I attempted to correct with a felt tip.

All-in-all, I am not happy with the results.

Does anyone have a "sure thing" way to fill a cavity of this size? Or even a great theory that I can use to experiment??

Thanks to all who contribute input---I really want to get this on YouTube, but it has to work without "gimmicks"!!

Here is the pen I finished--the center is a different shade of lavender--not an acceptable result.

 

[EBorraga]

I like this idea Ed. I use the spare leftover parts from the laser kits and make another pen with the ribbon. I use pr, but not everyone has some lying around. I'm definetly interested in buying this, if it becomes available.

 

[juteck]

My father tried several variations with his segmented turns to use as accents, but finally came across the West System Epoxy, also using the fairing as a thickener. He has few to no air bubble issues. His source was Lee Valley. He learned about this system through a Marilyn Campbell demonstration at the last North Carolina symposium.

Lee Valley:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=20016&cat=1,46096,46097&ap=1

Marilyn Campbell:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmwt.production/paperclip/files/256/MCampbell.pdf?1328712313

I think this setup is out of the league for the simplicity that you are trying to show, but there might be some useful information here to help guide you.

Good luck!

 

[ed4copies]

To Ernie and John:

The Cancer Awareness Project is not for profit. Both Ken and I are donating any proceeds back to cancer research. However, Ken is concerned about making all colors available and, thereby competing with his regular channels (including our "profitable" Kallenshaan awareness kits).

So, we are looking for a way to make the pens and laser kits affordable for the Cancer Awareness folks and NOT compete with the normal, "for profit" side of our business as well as the other distributors of Ken's kits.

Yes, it is a little confusing, so just assume I have lost my remaining marbles and have a fixation for dying material to make ribbons----that works, too!!

 

[juteck]

For dyeing the ribbons.... What about prismacolor markers or maybe even Sharpie. Lots of colors available at art supply stores. Not sure on the light fastness though. TomBow markets might be another option too - harder to find I think.

 

[walshjp17]

I did not "go here" because I thought the selection of colors was small, Dawn says I am poorly informed (NEVER wrong!). Do you know of a source for many colors, cheap?

CS USA has a variety of crushed stone colors starting at $4.50 an ounce. The higher end is close to $30/oz (inlace) but that is likely not what you are looking for.

 

[Dale Allen]

For what it's worth, I found out the hard way that you have to completely mix the 2 epoxy parts before adding the color, and not much color.

 

[EBorraga]

To Ernie and John:

The Cancer Awareness Project is not for profit. Both Ken and I are donating any proceeds back to cancer research. However, Ken is concerned about making all colors available and, thereby competing with his regular channels (including our "profitable" Kallenshaan awareness kits).

So, we are looking for a way to make the pens and laser kits affordable for the Cancer Awareness folks and NOT compete with the normal, "for profit" side of our business as well as the other distributors of Ken's kits.

Yes, it is a little confusing, so just assume I have lost my remaining marbles and have a fixation for dying material to make ribbons----that works, too!!

I'm with you 100% on the cancer awareness. I'd love to get the maple blank, not dyed, and make my one color. I do a bunch for The National Kidney Foundation and Organ Donor's.

 

[Sylvanite]

I would add fumed silica (brand name Cabosil or Aerosil) to thicken polyester resin or epoxy and tint it as desired. I wouldn't use talc - it makes the resin soft and is usually added to make sanding easier. If you don't want to buy silica, you can use West 610 or similar pre-thickened epoxy.

I hope that helps,
Eric

 

[jaywood1207]

Why not warm up the epoxy so that it flows easier. Put each bottle in a container of warm water to warm it up and make it runny. Once it is thin and runny mix it together with your colour in whatever container you choose and then dump in the void. This should get rid of the air pockets you get in the middle due to the thicker consistancy.

 

[ed4copies]

I would add fumed silica (brand name Cabosil or Aerosil) to thicken polyester resin or epoxy and tint it as desired. I wouldn't use talc - it makes the resin soft and is usually added to make sanding easier. If you don't want to buy silica, you can use West 610 or similar pre-thickened epoxy.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Thank you Eric!!

I have great hopes for the wood filler. I expect I will turn that blank tomorrow and if it works, it is something nearly all woodworkers will have in their shop.

If it does NOT work, I will probably have to buy something to resell with the kit--so this could be the answer. I appreciate your suggestions, no matter what the final easiest solution turns out to be.

 

[ed4copies]

Why not warm up the epoxy so that it flows easier. Put each bottle in a container of warm water to warm it up and make it runny. Once it is thin and runny mix it together with your colour in whatever container you choose and then dump in the void. This should get rid of the air pockets you get in the middle due to the thicker consistancy.

Another simple and cheap solution!!

If wood putty doesn't do the trick, I will give this a shot with 5 minute epoxy. Thanks!!!!

 

[jttheclockman]

What did he say:hypnotized:

To Ernie and John:

The Cancer Awareness Project is not for profit. Both Ken and I are donating any proceeds back to cancer research. However, Ken is concerned about making all colors available and, thereby competing with his regular channels (including our "profitable" Kallenshaan awareness kits).

So, we are looking for a way to make the pens and laser kits affordable for the Cancer Awareness folks and NOT compete with the normal, "for profit" side of our business as well as the other distributors of Ken's kits.

Yes, it is a little confusing, so just assume I have lost my remaining marbles and have a fixation for dying material to make ribbons----that works, too!!

 

[Mr Vic]

Ed, try some fine glitter from Hobby Lobby and mix with 5 minute epoxy. Then you can pack it into the void. Gives it a real pop... If I missed this idea in earlier posts...OOPS

 

[low_48]

I use a fabric paint in a plastic squeeze bottle with a tiny nozzle tip from Walmart. It shrinks a fair amount, so overfill and wet sand with micro mesh. Very cheap, very easy.

 

[sbwertz]

I use embossing powder from the hobby store. It comes in a zillion colors. I cut out the part I want to fill, then drip some medium CA into the cavity. Then I take a pinch of the embossing powder and dribble it on top of the CA. I then drip on a little thin CA. Repeat until the cavity is completely full. If you do find a bubble when turning just use a little thin CA and a pinch of the same color powder. It always matches perfectly. If it is a large area to fill, I mix the powder directly into the epoxy. You can still fill bubbles with ca and powder and it will blend into the epoxy.