Cigar vs, Perfect Fit

[Randy_]

I've always admired the Perfect Fit pen that Berea sells; but have never put one together....mainly because i would have to buy two more drills. After looking carefully at the picture of the pen that Tom had the problem with and going back to the catalog to study the information there for a possible "save"; I noticed that the cigar pen takes a much bigger drill bit. That suggests to me that it is a significantly bigger pen than the PF. Could someone who has done both pens take a minute and describe the differences and similarities of the two kits. Thanks. If someone has already done this, please just point me in the right direction

 

[ctEaglesc]

The biggest difference is the perfect fit uses the "B" mandrel.
The bottom of the PF is an 8MM. tube.
HAven't really miked out the top tube but they are indeed different and require a step bushing for the top section.
(there is a way around this if you have a spare section of 8mm tube.it will fit perfectly inside the top tube,I do that to mill the top section)
The beauty of the PF is the ability to covert it to a pencil with no tooling changes just use an optional $2.00 pencil cartridge.
The Cigar is sold by a number of different suppliers under different names and it seems to be sold as a "loss leader"
It can be turned on a standard mandrel.
I have used the pencil cartridge in some of these but the action doesn't work all the time.
I might make one for personal use but wouldn't sell it as a pencil because of its"quirks".
There really aren't any similarities to the two kits.
Bereas reasoning that large pens require the "B" mandrel is convoluted when you compare the size of the "Cigar" which takes a standard mandrel and the "Perfect Fit" which takes the "b" mandrel.
Things like drill bits, bushings and mandrels are a way of life in turning pens.
When I first started it was a little confusing if not overwhelming.
Once you start using different Styles and collecting the different sized bushings you can do a "mix" and match.
The PK MOn Par from PSI uses an 8mm tube,I use these on my shell casing pens.It's easier to use the "B" mandrel than the step bushing normally required.
I just tried swiching tops and bottoms of both pens and they are not interchangeable.
I have modified both kits but the PF is a little easier to modify.

 

[Old Griz]

I make quite a few of both.. they are my top selling style pens... the cigar is a decidedly larger pen and some people really like the size, especially if they have the beginnings of arthritis or their hands cramp from writing with a smaller pen... I buy all my cigar kits from either Arizona Silhouette or Woodturningz... you can't beat the pricing from them... it uses a 10mm bit for both the top and bottom.. because of the size you can modify the design more than a smaller pen.. but I make them in the traditional style.. have not found bead and curves sell as well for me
The Perfect Fit I would classify somewhere in size between a Double Twist Euro and the Cigar, but closer to the Euro.. it is turned on a Berea B mandrel and as noted requires two different drill bits.. but as you go along in penturning you will be acquiring a whole lot of bits anyway... LOL I recently purchased a set of bits to 1/2" in 1/64" increments from Harbor Freight that fits the bill for those sizes I would need anyway... in the long run it was cheaper.. these were TN coated bits and I think the cost was a whopping $30..
The Perfect Fit does not lend itself to much experimentation, but there are things you can try (as I am) to make them unique... I personally like the size of the PF, it fits my hand nicely and most people who pick one up like it immediately... in fact they also seem to like the look better than the Euro.. I generally make them in lots of 6-10 in the same wood.. that way I can sell pen and pencil sets of the same wood if the customer wants, by only changing out the ink refil for a $2 pencil refil.. this makes the PF a real economical system for pen and pencil sets.. I generally try to make these pens in my better woods because they look very elegant and I can command a better price for a nice looking pen... another thing I tend to do is replace the ink refil with a gel ink refil, it really makes the pen write better and is a real sale getter... when a customer tries out a pen, if it writes smoothly and comfortably, they are more likely to buy it...
Give them a try, I think you will be pleasantly surprised...

 

[wayneis]

The pencil mech. also work well in the El Grande also sold by Berea. The El Grande is a very good selling pen, it is also on the large size.

Wayne

 

[Randy_]

Thanks, guys!! Thats exactly what I wanted to know. I like the cigar pen; but it is just a hair bigger than I find comfortable. I also much prefer the hardware of the PF pen. It just looks classier. I especially like the smoothly rounded form of the "B" style clip. I already have the 8 mm mandrel which I bought to do some Streamline Americans and an 8 mm drill that I bought for the PSI SL-Pro so all I really need is one more drill bit. Guess I need to fire off another order to Berea.

Eagle: Thanks for the tip about using a spare tube as a bushing!! Being that my turning skills still leave a bit to be desires, I always buy a spare set(or more) of tubes whenever I buy a new kit.....cheap insurance. According to the Berea catalog, the upper tube requires an 11/32 drill which is about 8.73 mm.

Tom: Your gel refill idea sounds like a winner to me....think I will adopt that as S.O.P. What do you do with the original cartridges....trash them.....or send them with the pen as a spare??

wayneis: No one has ever asked me for a pencil. Don't think people want to pay big bucks for one. Do you get a lot of requests for them??

 

[Old Griz]

Randy, right now I have a whole load of standard ink refills sitting in an envelope, but I don't think I would give them to the customer.. when the gel runs out and he put the standard refill in the pen will not write the same and the customer might not realize why... don't need them coming back because of a refill... LOL.. I do tell them that the refill they have in the pen is a gel ink refill so they know what to purchase later on..
You can buy the gel ink refills for $5.99 for a pack of 5 from CSU. Have not tried to find a cheaper price from the office supply places.. but they might have a house brand for the same price... BTW, I replace the standard refill in all pens that take a Parker refill.. so the cigars and DT Euros get them also... it really does help sales...

 

[woodscavenger]

The gels inserts pay for themselves easily. I put them in my cigars and I can't count the number of nurses that say something like "oooooo" "aaahhhhhhh" and then fork over the cash. I only have one problem. I buy the brand name parker gel inserts at my local office supply and I have to ream out the nib tip with a rat-tail file or because the gel tips are just a smidge larger and get hing up in the nib.

 

[Old Griz]

That's interesting Shane... I have never had that problem with any of the pens I have used gel refills in..
I purchase all my cigars from AZ and Woodturningz.. they are either Berea or PSI kits and never had a problem... same with the Perfect Fits, I also use them in the Atlas pens I get from AZ with no problem... I started using the name brands with no problems and switched to the off names because of price...

 

[patrick_1853]

I use the Parker gel refills in my cigar pens as well. I have never had to ream out the tip. I have had a couple of the plastic caps on the back of the insert loosen, which then ruined the pen. These were both pens that I had made too short and had to grind down the plastic thingy anyway, so I think I know who was to blame for that []. Luckily, those two pens went to myself and my brother as test pens.
I wouldn't sell one that had been modified in such a way.
Patrick

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by Old Griz
<br />Randy, right now I have a whole load of standard ink refills sitting in an envelope.....

Tom: Shame to see all of those refills go to waste. Maybe you could put them in a box and donate them to a local school. Most teachers aren't getting rich and probably go through refills on a regular basis??

 

[Gregory Huey]

I replace every refill in every pen I make both Parker and Cross. It sure helps sell a pen when they write nice. Got tons of kit refills I don,t know what to do with.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by Gregory Huey
<br />I replace every refill in every pen I make both Parker and Cross. It sure helps sell a pen when they write nice. Got tons of kit refills I don,t know what to do with.

This is quite interesting what you say, I have made the experience that the refill coming with the kit write exceptionally well. I had even customers contacting me since the name brand refill, i.e. Parker and Cross did not write as nicely and smooth than the original refill from the kit. We had a discussion some time ago on yahoo and what I have found was pretty much confirmed by other penturners. But my experience is only limited to Berea pen kits, so if you have refill from them and want to get rid of them send them to me, I pay for shipping!! Don't know anything about the PSI quality of refills.

Rudy
SE MI

 

[wicook]

When I started turning pens, I bought my first kits from Lee Valley. The refills skipped and were generally pretty poor quality. Since buying the Berea kits from BB, I find that the refills that come with the kits are better quality than the name brand refills (Cross and Parker).

 

[woodscavenger]

I am amazed nobody else needs to ream the nibs. I had another pen with the same problem yesterday. Standard gold upgrade from BB. I put a Parker brand gell insert in and it would not extend through the nib. Took it out and it would not go in from the other direction. A few seconds with a rat tail file fixed it. The gel inserts are true PARKER brand refills. I am going to ream them all out now because I would hate for someone to go and purchase a refill and then have the problem and think I sell a crappy product.

 

[Brent]

Shane, I have had the same problem with some gel refills. The ones that I bought were metal cased instead of plsctic, But they were the same lenght but just a very small amount to big around I bought mine at a office supply. My daughter bought some parker gel refils at WalMart and they were to big also

 

[Randy_]

All this talk of nibs and ink cartridges and misfits got me to thinking and that can be dangerous.....

Anybody ever "mike" any of these pen tips and see exactly how much variation we are talking about? It would also be interesting to measure the diameter of the nib hole in a commercially made Parker pen and compare it with the nibs in the kits we are buying.

Also, just out of curiosity I took a Parker refill and stuck it in a rollerball nib and I tried a rollerball refill in a "Parker" nib. They both fit so they must be very close to the same size. Anyone know if that is by design or by luck?? I'm too darn comfortable right now to run out to the shop and find my mike. Probably do it tomorrow if I remember!!

 

[Gregory Huey]

I have had to file out the nibs for the refills to fit but not all the time.

 

[Randy_]

Well, the old "mike" has been miking tonight!! Here are the results of the measurements of some of my various refill tips:

Parker Brand-Regular BP
0.010

Parker-Spanish
0.0975

Parker-Chinese
0.099
0.0975
0.098

Parker Brand-Gel
0.100

Chinese-Gel
0.0975

Rollerball-Kit
0.098

Rollerball-Japan
0.090



Observations:

1. Tip sizes don't seem to vary much. With the exception of the Japanese rollerball all refills were within two and a half thousandths of each other.....pretty tight!!

2. All of the kit refills were slightly smaller than the actual Parker Brand refills.

3. The under-size Japanese rollerball refill was not a universal refill, but rather one that was removed from a PILOT(I think) pen. It may be a proprietary size and not representative of the size of universal refills.

I would feel more comfortable if I had measured a larger sample of refills; but based on the information I do have, it would seem to be prudent for pen sellers to check all nibs on pens that take a Parker refill against an actual Parker refill since they appear to have the biggest tips. Even if you don't change refills prior to sale, at some point in time your customers will need to replace the refills and most likely will use the PARKER BRAND refill. That creates the potential for a future problem and an unhappy customer. I'm going to check all of my pens......don't want them coming back a year later because of a refill problem!!