Chasing, some success! Beall Pen Wizard...

[jrista]

I've been playing around with the Pen Wizard for a while now. First bought it early last year, but wasn't able to use it for a while. Had pretty spotty use through most of last year, largely due to issues with the gears and the shafts (D-shaped holes in the gears were too small to fit or slide along the shafts, and set screw gouges caused me to get several gears stuck such that I couldn't get hem off!! BEWARE if you buy one!) I finally managed to conjure up a jig that helped me pop these gears off, and have been fiddling for a couple of weeks.

Finally had a pretty good success today, with one of the styles I've been wanting to pursue. The toughest thing I've run into is the starts...when you swing the dremel (or whatever tool) down, it is extremely easy to leave a large round divot that looks terrible. Even with engraving rings around the boundaries, often these holes show and its just ugly. Burned through a good number of old, bad blanks testing. I think over the last couple of days or so I've finally gotten a handle on it. Here is the best result so far:

The blank was already finished. Which brings up the question, how to maintain contrasts between the engraving and the rest of the wood, sometimes its tough to see the engravings. Also, what finish to use. I'll be testing more on acrylics, ebonite, and other materials soon, which are more likely to be getting the chasing treatment than woods...but still, not really sure yet how to get the engravings to stand out with woods. Anyway, did two engravings slightly deeper than the rest, 180 degrees from each other, to create the standout spiral.

Anyway. FWIW it seems the starting divot issue largely be a problem due to the very tiny size of engraving bits I'm using...my goal is very fine engravings, significantly smaller than most of the Beall training videos use (which I think is a 1/8", maybe 1/16", but pretty darn large in the grand scheme of things.)

Another issue I've run into, is the diamond burr Dremel bits don't last for crap!! I burned through half a set of those, and the sharp pointy tips end up largely devoid of any grit before the first pass is entirely done. I've switched to these ball cutter tips for HSS. You can get 'em pretty darn tiny (1/32" or 0.8mm or thereabouts), although I usually only find them in sets with other bits I never use, so its been very expensive so far. The HSS cutter bits have spiraled blades cut into them, so they last a lot longer and cut better. The above is the most consistent I've been able to be so far, but, the engraving is still larger than I want. I want it to be even finer than that if I can, but I am not sure if there is a bit out there that will let me do it. Maybe one of those tiny 1/64" pin vise drill bits, but I have no idea it there is a way to hold one in my dremel.

 

[jrista]

Added an engraved ring at either end. Still doesn't really deal with the starting divots:

I didn't do any precise measurements on this one, as its just a test. For a real pen I would precisely measure the end band thicknesses and all that. Apparently there are "triangle" engraving bits, but I haven't been able to find any locally, except one that won't work with the Pen Wizard as the size of the bit head would destroy the depth stop (which keeps the engraving bit from just gouging as deeply into the wood as it wants). I may try to order some that are the same size as the 1/8" shank (which should be fine with the depth stop) off Amazon if I can find free shipping, and see if they allow me to get the finer cuts that I'm looking for.

 

[leehljp]

I'm looking back through some older Scrollsaw links for a Dremel like tool but much much faster (200,000 - 500,000 rpm, IIRC) and more precise. When I find them I will post a link with them.

Here is a link but it is an air compressor driven high rpm carver the size of a Dremel.

SCM Systems

Create custom gunstock engravings and carvings, glass etchings, engraving systems, sandblasting, stone carvings,inlay work, creative gunstock carvings, egg art, engrave on antlers, antlers, and start your own business with SCM's high speed engraver.

scmsysteminc.com

Engraving

scmsysteminc.com

Your blank and practice looks GREAT! WOW!

 

[jrista]

I'm looking back through some older Scrollsaw links for a Dremel like tool but much much faster (200,000 - 500,000 rpm, IIRC) and more precise. When I find them I will post a link with them.

Here is a link but it is an air compressor driven high rpm carver the size of a Dremel.

SCM Systems

Create custom gunstock engravings and carvings, glass etchings, engraving systems, sandblasting, stone carvings,inlay work, creative gunstock carvings, egg art, engrave on antlers, antlers, and start your own business with SCM's high speed engraver.

scmsysteminc.com

Engraving

scmsysteminc.com

Your blank and practice looks GREAT! WOW!

Thanks! Getting there...not quite there yet...but heck of a lot closer than I was a while back!

Since you mentioned RPM, I checked mine...and its actually fairly low. I guess I didn't set it earlier. I'm going to crank it up next time, and see if that produces a better cut.

I also picked up a V type bit that may be just small enough to fit with the included depth stop. I only need the tiniest bit of the tip to protrude, as I don't want a huge engraving, so maybe it will work.

I've run into stuck gears again, tough. I tried to remove them from the primary shaft, so I could get a higher angle on each path, and the 32 tooth won't budge. I started with a 45 degree engraving angle, but, I am now wondering if a steeper angle would actually look better once crosshatched. Hopefully I'll be able to get this darn gear off tomorrow.

 

[rherrell]

Try one of these, solid carbide so it won't wear out in wood and plastic...

Engraver

 

[duncsuss]

Have you considered adding a "sacrificial ring" about 1/4" at each end of the blank? You could land the cutting bit in that space then it would be trimmed off after all the patterns are cut.

 

[leehljp]

Thanks! Getting there...not quite there yet...but heck of a lot closer than I was a while back!

Since you mentioned RPM, I checked mine...and its actually fairly low. I guess I didn't set it earlier. I'm going to crank it up next time, and see if that produces a better cut.

I also picked up a V type bit that may be just small enough to fit with the included depth stop. I only need the tiniest bit of the tip to protrude, as I don't want a huge engraving, so maybe it will work.

I've run into stuck gears again, tough. I tried to remove them from the primary shaft, so I could get a higher angle on each path, and the 32 tooth won't budge. I started with a 45 degree engraving angle, but, I am now wondering if a steeper angle would actually look better once crosshatched. Hopefully I'll be able to get this darn gear off tomorrow.

A couple of the engravers on one of the Scrollsaw forums both mentioned (some time ago) that there was a huge difference between dremel type engravers at 30,000/40,000 rpm versus the 200,000-400,000 rpm engravers. The slower rpm tends to follow the grain patterns and have more fiber sticking up, versus the higher rpm makes cleaner cuts and much less susceptible to grain pattern. I don't know this personally but was impressed with the knowledge of the Scrollsawers.

 

[jrista]

Have you considered adding a "sacrificial ring" about 1/4" at each end of the blank? You could land the cutting bit in that space then it would be trimmed off after all the patterns are cut.

This is a good idea...at least in cases where I want the engraving to start at the very end of the blank.

 

[jrista]

A couple of the engravers on one of the Scrollsaw forums both mentioned (some time ago) that there was a huge difference between dremel type engravers at 30,000/40,000 rpm versus the 200,000-400,000 rpm engravers. The slower rpm tends to follow the grain patterns and have more fiber sticking up, versus the higher rpm makes cleaner cuts and much less susceptible to grain pattern. I don't know this personally but was impressed with the knowledge of the Scrollsawers.

Oh, I don't doubt it. I was at 6000 rpm last night, so hopefully going to max RPM will help today. Should be able to try again in a bit here. ATM buying a new engraver is out of budget (I have to make a profit over the next three years to be able to keep this business). Hopefully a higher RPM will help give me better cut today. I also have this new bit, which should give me finer engravings.

 

[jrista]

Try one of these, solid carbide so it won't wear out in wood and plastic...

Engraver

Thanks. I'll give one a try!

 

[jrista]

New bit seems to be doing the job! Its chewing up the depth stop a little, but...I think this is sufficiently fine:

I'd love to use a 200,000rpm engraver. My dremel only goes to 10k rpm. Its about 25 years old or so.

I could probably do engravings at every index point now, with them this thin.

 

[jrista]

So, I don't know how many engravers there are on the forums here... I have a question for you guys, though, if there are any. When engraving fine details like this. Is it better to track slowly, allowing the bit to move through the wood slowly? Or should you move faster? I tried both...slow on one direction of the paths above, and fast on the other. I'm not sure if there is much difference...but, my RPM are not particularly fast either, so maybe that's the main issue. Anyway, would be curious to know what's better here for getting the cleanest cut.

 

[jrista]

I'm looking back through some older Scrollsaw links for a Dremel like tool but much much faster (200,000 - 500,000 rpm, IIRC) and more precise. When I find them I will post a link with them.

Here is a link but it is an air compressor driven high rpm carver the size of a Dremel.

SCM Systems

Create custom gunstock engravings and carvings, glass etchings, engraving systems, sandblasting, stone carvings,inlay work, creative gunstock carvings, egg art, engrave on antlers, antlers, and start your own business with SCM's high speed engraver.

scmsysteminc.com

Engraving

scmsysteminc.com

Your blank and practice looks GREAT! WOW!

Hey Hank...is this SCM systems the only one of these that you know of? The 400xs seems to be their only offering, and it looks really nice, but I am not sure if it could be used with the Pen Wizard. At the very least, it would probably require some customization to rig up some kind of holder for it, but, I have been unable in particular to figure out how it is turned on (there is some kind of plunger in the back, which might be how...but if there is a push-button down near the tip, I am not sure if that would work with the pen wizard.)

I don't know if there is a name for these kinds of engraving tools, or if anyone else makes such a high speed one.

It looks like a new Dremel capable of up to 32000 rpm is only around $60. I might pick one of those up in the short term here. The 10k rpm of my old one, may just not be fast enough to give me a clean cut. At least on wood.

 

[duncsuss]

... is this SCM systems the only one of these that you know of? The 400xs seems to be their only offering ... kind of plunger in the back, which might be how...but if there is a push-button down near the tip, I am not sure if that would work with the pen wizard.)

I don't know if there is a name for these kinds of engraving tools, or if anyone else makes such a high speed one.

This is most likely derived from a dental laboratory tool. There are several on the market - perhaps the best known is the NSK Presto. (Much of it's popularity among woodturners stems from the superb pierced and airbrushed turnings by Binh Pho.)

I have a version called Vortex F5 which uses the same basic technology - an air turbine that spins at up to 400,000 rpm. Typically they take "FG" (1/16" diameter) burs, same as a dentist's drill. I have a range of solid carbide burs and a few diamond-coated burs. I drive it using a normal air compressor through a regulator/filter arrangement that doubles-up as the input to an airbrush.

The plunger on the back of the one in Hank's link is to release the bur from the tool. Mine (and the NSK Presto) release the bur by twisting the nose cone of the handpiece.

They are very fast, perfect for engraving in delicate material (such as egg shells) but they have very little torque and easily stall out if you try to take too deep a bite, so multiple passes are needed if I'm piercing material than it will take in one shot. (Kind of like cutting grooves with a regular router - sometimes you have to do it in more than one pass.)

Oh - and there are two varieties: some require a spritz of oil into the air inlet to keep the bearings from seizing up. Others are "oil free" - I think they use ceramic bearings which don't need lubrication. For wood I'd recommend oil-free.

 

[TDahl]

New bit seems to be doing the job! Its chewing up the depth stop a little, but...I think this is sufficiently fine:

View attachment 370490

I'd love to use a 200,000rpm engraver. My dremel only goes to 10k rpm. Its about 25 years old or so.

I could probably do engravings at every index point now, with them this thin.

Was this from the bit Rick Herrell recommended, or a different one?

 

[jrista]

Was this from the bit Rick Herrell recommended, or a different one?

This was from a standard Dremel bit. The 125:

125 Cutting & Carving Bits | Dremel

Dremel 125 1/4 In. (6.4 mm) Carving Bits

www.dremel.com

It isn't really a great fit, as the depth stop moves back and forth a bit as you track, and this bit is chewing up the edges of the internal slot on that. I intend to get one line Rick recommended, and see how it goes. It should actually have a steeper angle, which might allow for slightly finer engravings.

I need to figure out how far I can push the Pen Wizard now, though. One of the chasing designs I wanted to replicate was this:

Conway Stewart Churchill Blue Chased Pen - Classic and Elegant

Write with classic elegance with the Conway Stewart Churchill Blue Chased pen. This beautiful pen features a striking blue chased design and is made with high-quality materials, ensuring a smooth and enjoyable writing experience. It is perfect for everyday use or as a special gift. Order now and...

conwaystewart.com

This opposed sine wave pattern. I started testing this out, and the Pen Wizard does not seem to allow me to reduce the amplitude enough to allow this kind of pattern. The way it was designed, I don't think anyone had any FINE scale engraving in mind, especially since the training videos all seem to use rather large drill bits for these very coarse, large scale patterns.

I've tried to use my laser engraver to do this, and its not quite up to the task, at least not with any normal kind of usage pattern. I've actually been thinking of trying to use the pen wizard and the laser engraver in conjunction, to support this precise indexed positioning of the blank, and then use the laser engraver to etch in the pattern. The engraver would simply have a narrow linear pattern that it just runs down the blank with, then you would reposition and run the same pattern again. Don't know how well it would work, and the laser engraver will burn wood. Might work for other materials though (and I know some chasing was done with laser engravers, usually with hard rubbers.)

 

[jrista]

This is most likely derived from a dental laboratory tool. There are several on the market - perhaps the best known is the NSK Presto. (Much of it's popularity among woodturners stems from the superb pierced and airbrushed turnings by Binh Pho.)

I have a version called Vortex F5 which uses the same basic technology - an air turbine that spins at up to 400,000 rpm. Typically they take "FG" (1/16" diameter) burs, same as a dentist's drill. I have a range of solid carbide burs and a few diamond-coated burs. I drive it using a normal air compressor through a regulator/filter arrangement that doubles-up as the input to an airbrush.

The plunger on the back of the one in Hank's link is to release the bur from the tool. Mine (and the NSK Presto) release the bur by twisting the nose cone of the handpiece.

They are very fast, perfect for engraving in delicate material (such as egg shells) but they have very little torque and easily stall out if you try to take too deep a bite, so multiple passes are needed if I'm piercing material than it will take in one shot. (Kind of like cutting grooves with a regular router - sometimes you have to do it in more than one pass.)

Oh - and there are two varieties: some require a spritz of oil into the air inlet to keep the bearings from seizing up. Others are "oil free" - I think they use ceramic bearings which don't need lubrication. For wood I'd recommend oil-free.

So, is the main benefit of the ultra high speed the handling? I've watched a few videos now, and that seems to be what the reviewers are alluding to...that it handles like an actual pen, you can't feel any torque.

If that is the main benefit, I wonder if it would offer much for use with the pen wizard. Since it would rigidly hold the device. My old dremel is probably long past its lifespan. I don't know that it is even reaching 10k rpm anymore. It sometimes seems to stall out a little bit as well. I think its probably around 25 years old, it might even be older than that. I may try a newer dremel model. Looks like I can pick up one capable of 35k rpm, the 4300 model, for around $70 or so. Before I drop some dough on one of these ultra high speed engravers, I may see how that goes. Some of the designs possible with the Pen Wizard would indeed involve engraving through some non-trivial amounts of material (some things I'll give a try soon here.) I need something capable of pushing the bit through maybe a few millimeters of wood while its being turned underneath the bit.

 

[duncsuss]

So, is the main benefit of the ultra high speed the handling? I've watched a few videos now, and that seems to be what the reviewers are alluding to...that it handles like an actual pen, you can't feel any torque.

I think this is a true statement. You probably know as well as me that if you don't have a firm grip of a Dremel when you touch the cutting bit against a piece of wood, it'll skid off. Doesn't happen with an air turbine.

If that is the main benefit, I wonder if it would offer much for use with the pen wizard. Since it would rigidly hold the device.

I don't think the pen wizard holds the tool as rigidly as you believe. The most recent photo shows a huge improvement over the first, but the divots at the start points are still visible. I'm not trying to be negative - but the reality is that the pen wizard does not have the accuracy a machine tool would, and, while it's great within the intended parameters, fine engraving like chasing and guilloche may be more than it's capable of. I hope you are able to make it work though - push the limits!

 

[jrista]

I think this is a true statement. You probably know as well as me that if you don't have a firm grip of a Dremel when you touch the cutting bit against a piece of wood, it'll skid off. Doesn't happen with an air turbine.


I don't think the pen wizard holds the tool as rigidly as you believe. The most recent photo shows a huge improvement over the first, but the divots at the start points are still visible. I'm not trying to be negative - but the reality is that the pen wizard does not have the accuracy a machine tool would, and, while it's great within the intended parameters, fine engraving like chasing and guilloche may be more than it's capable of. I hope you are able to make it work though - push the limits!

Oh, the divots are really me, not setting the tool down on the blank properly.

But I generally agree, its not really the right tool. Its just the tool I have. I would love to get a proper rose engine or strait line engine, but those seem to be mostly antiques and are extremely expensive. I think a rose engine would allow me to do what I want rather nicely, if I could find one that wasn't some utterly beautiful antique that I would rather put in a glass case than use.

 

[duncsuss]

I think a rose engine would allow me to do what I want rather nicely, if I could find one that wasn't some utterly beautiful antique that I would rather put in a glass case than use.

I follow Wes Pilley on Instagram - he has a rose engine (possibly more than one) and knows how to use it. Posts some wonderful videos of it in action.

A few years ago somebody on IAP had a Nova "ornamental turner" for sale - I think it was MrBurls. I was sorely tempted but it was way out of my available budget at that time. If it came around now I'd probably jump on it!

 

[jrista]

I follow Wes Pilley on Instagram - he has a rose engine (possibly more than one) and knows how to use it. Posts some wonderful videos of it in action.

A few years ago somebody on IAP had a Nova "ornamental turner" for sale - I think it was MrBurls. I was sorely tempted but it was way out of my available budget at that time. If it came around now I'd probably jump on it!

Thanks for the Wes Pilley mention. I found his instagram page and will research it more. It looks like he uses the Lindow rose engine, which is very expensive (I think its ten grand). I'd LOVE to have one of those... I guess technically speaking I need a strait line engine, one with a mandrel that would allow me to turn a pen blank a precise, indexed amount between each line engraved. I actually haven't come across many of those, although I think the Lindow can be configured to do it.

 

[duncsuss]

Thanks for the Wes Pilley mention. I found his instagram page and will research it more. It looks like he uses the Lindow rose engine, which is very expensive (I think its ten grand). I'd LOVE to have one of those... I guess technically speaking I need a strait line engine, one with a mandrel that would allow me to turn a pen blank a precise, indexed amount between each line engraved. I actually haven't come across many of those, although I think the Lindow can be configured to do it.

Somebody on this forum has one and posted links to videos on YouTube of him using it. I don't remember his user name, but I think his avatar was a logo built from the letters AB in a font like Palace Script. It was several years ago, but a search for "guilloche" or "chasing" might come up with a hit.

 

[duncsuss]

Found it - https://www.penturners.org/threads/mop-handle.114252/#post-1574145

Several posts down the thread somebody mentions his YouTube videos ...

 

[jrista]

Found it - https://www.penturners.org/threads/mop-handle.114252/#post-1574145

Several posts down the thread somebody mentions his YouTube videos ...

Thanks. Looks like he is from Colorado as well. Wonder if he is still turning...says his last activity here was in 2017.

That pen is amazing, though!

 

[jrista]

Found it - https://www.penturners.org/threads/mop-handle.114252/#post-1574145

Several posts down the thread somebody mentions his YouTube videos ...

Oh!! I have actually watched one of his videos. Its actually one of the things that got me interested in guilloche and chasing in the first place!