Casting Newbie Question

[meshel]

Hi,

I've been turning pens for some time, but have never done any casting or stabilizing, and I have no inclination toward the "chemical" side - as in I know almost nothing about it. My brother, however, is an engineer with a degree in plastics (or material engineering).

Whenever I ask him if he can help me, he says what do you need, and of course I say "resin" - he just laughs - since apparently that is such a generic name you might as well say "wood"

So my question (after the long opening), can anyone explain to me in chemical/brand name exactly what materials I need for casting quality pens (any kind, just please be specific what is for what). And also what do I need for stabilizing real wood. pointing me to site on the subject will also help a lot - what I'm missing is what materials/combinations are good for pen making (heat resistance for the turning, sandability etc...)

My hope is that my brother could find the required materials here in Israel, and maybe use some the machinery he has available at work (or wherever) to help me do some nice blanks.

Thank you!
Moshe

 

[ronhampton]

there are several tutorials in the library.:wink:---ron.---

 

[JayDevin]

Alumilite is great

www.alumilite.com

the clear is what I use

 

[its_virgil]

polyester resin is great, cheaper, and I think it polishes easier. Of course, several others will enthusiastically disagree with me.

I use polyester resin from http://www.mrfiberglass.com Silmar 41 is a clear casting polyester resin and is sold by mrfigerglass. Silmar 41 is also available from US Composites at http://www.uscomposites.com I also use polyester resin from composites one...http://www.compositesone.com They call it Swing Resin but it is definitely polyester resin. It is not silmar 41 but performs as well as or better than silmar 41. Composites One only sells polyester resin in 5 gallon units. Another source is Douglas and Sturgess Art Supply at http://www.artstuf.com

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Alumilite is great

www.alumilite.com

the clear is what I use

 

[meshel]

Thank you all for the information! it is very helpful - I think. now for brain storming with my brother on how and where to get all this in Israel - and how to proceed.
Question: is this the same material used for stabilizing? or do I need something else?

 

[sbell111]

polyester resin is great, cheaper, and I think it polishes easier. Of course, several others will enthusiastically disagree with me.

I use polyester resin from http://www.mrfiberglass.com Silmar 41 is a clear casting polyester resin and is sold by mrfigerglass. Silmar 41 is also available from US Composites at http://www.uscomposites.com I also use polyester resin from composites one...http://www.compositesone.com They call it Swing Resin but it is definitely polyester resin. It is not silmar 41 but performs as well as or better than silmar 41. Composites One only sells polyester resin in 5 gallon units. Another source is Douglas and Sturgess Art Supply at http://www.artstuf.com

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Thanks for the tip on Composites One. As it turns out, they have a local location. I'm going to have to give them a call.

 

[TellicoTurning]

polyester resin is great, cheaper, and I think it polishes easier. Of course, several others will enthusiastically disagree with me.

I use polyester resin from http://www.mrfiberglass.com Silmar 41 is a clear casting polyester resin and is sold by mrfigerglass. Silmar 41 is also available from US Composites at http://www.uscomposites.com I also use polyester resin from composites one...http://www.compositesone.com They call it Swing Resin but it is definitely polyester resin. It is not silmar 41 but performs as well as or better than silmar 41. Composites One only sells polyester resin in 5 gallon units. Another source is Douglas and Sturgess Art Supply at http://www.artstuf.com

Do a good turn daily!
Don

I'm not in the market at this time, but thought was interesting that shipping information on USComposites only list 28 states and though they ship all around TN, do not list TN.. wonder if there is some restrictions.. They have a contractural restriction to Palm Beach county in FL

 

[GouletPens]

I've tried stabilizing with PR and a PV pot, and it doesn't work. The stuff's too thick. Try using about 20" of vacuum in polyurethane over night to stabilize....PR is good but it's harder to measure the catalyst/resin ratio. The alumilite is good but is expensive.

 

[sbell111]

I've tried stabilizing with PR and a PV pot, and it doesn't work. The stuff's too thick. Try using about 20" of vacuum in polyurethane over night to stabilize....

If it is too thick, thin it.

 

[its_virgil]

I keep hearing reports about this. I routinely use 3 drops of MEKP per ounce to cast my snake skins and have no problems with the resin curing. I take them out after 4 hours (which is too long) and turn them the next day. But, adding pigments and colorants will have an effect on how PR cures.

PR is good but it's harder to measure the catalyst/resin ratio.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[GouletPens]

Let me clear a couple of things up, first off I'm a novice when it comes to casting resin, I'm just saying that it's not as easy to figure out necessarily as Alumilite....50/50, that's pretty easy. The PR cures differently depending on the thickness of the casting, the humidity and evelavtion of your particular location. I'm sure sure exactly what you need to do to adjust for that, but like I said I'm a novice.

Also, when I was talking about stabilizing, I was talking about taking a perfectly solid blank and trying to inject the PR into the pores, much like when you buy stabilized blanks from AS or someone else. I tried it twice and gave up. It's easier to buy them stabilized. I am experimenting with stabilizing using poly and vacuum. I have my first ones drying in the shop right now. I'll post a new thread with my results.

 

[Skye]

The PR cures differently depending on the thickness of the casting, the humidity and evelavtion of your particular location.

Don't forget temperature.

What exactly is going wrong with your PR castings again? (or is there a thread about it?)

 

[GouletPens]

Skye, I'm trying to find a way to stabilize things like tulipwood and bloodwood b/c they tend to want to crack on me despite all the measures I'm taking. I'm doing poly with vacuum to do that, but I'm also working on casting worthless wood and casting straight PR with dyes. If the poly works, I'll stick with that for my "non-worthless" woods, Alumilite for the worthless ones, and PR for the casting with dyes. I might just have to build another PV pot!!!

What originally went wrong is that I was trying to stabilize woods like redwood burl and crosscut zebrawood using PR under 60 psi, but when the PR cured, it only went into the blank about 1mm, and all turned away on the lathe. I need something thinner to be able to stabilize woods like this, hence the polyurethane. Someone up top suggested thinning the PR. Any idea what to thin it with? I can only imagine throwing in one more factor for the catalyst ratio.....

 

[NewLondon88]

Someone up top suggested thinning the PR. Any idea what to thin it with? I can only imagine throwing in one more factor for the catalyst ratio.....

You should be able to thin the polyester with styrene.

USComposites has it for $6.25 / qt.
Stock # is SMSTY025

 

[sbell111]

Let me clear a couple of things up, first off I'm a novice when it comes to casting resin, I'm just saying that it's not as easy to figure out necessarily as Alumilite....50/50, that's pretty easy. The PR cures differently depending on the thickness of the casting, the humidity and evelavtion of your particular location. I'm sure sure exactly what you need to do to adjust for that, but like I said I'm a novice.

The variables you have to work with are 1) amount of catalyst, 2) ambient temperature, and 3) time.

I believe that most people either find an amount of catalyst that they like and stick with it no matter what (typically between 3 and 7 drops per ounce) or they start with a baseline of around 3-4 drops and increase the amount of catalyst to overcome known difficulties such as lower ambient temperature or 'troublesome' colorants.

At the end of the day, choosing too little catalyst is not a terrible outcome. It simply requires the addition of time and possibly heat. Basically, if my castings aren't completely hard after sitting overnight in the shop, I either set them outside (in the summer) or raise the shop temperature a bit (or take them inside for a while, if the wifey isn't around). Others have placed the uncured blanks into a slightly warm toaster oven or atop a radiator. I've yet to experience PR blanks that wouldn't cure with the addition of time and temp.

Also, when I was talking about stabilizing, I was talking about taking a perfectly solid blank and trying to inject the PR into the pores, much like when you buy stabilized blanks from AS or someone else. I tried it twice and gave up. It's easier to buy them stabilized. I am experimenting with stabilizing using poly and vacuum. I have my first ones drying in the shop right now. I'll post a new thread with my results.

I don't think that you'll be able to thin PR enough to use it to stabilize a 'perfectly solid blank. Poly (oil based) can be thinned easily using mineral spirits.

 

[Daniel]

I have known one other person that tried to stabilize with Polyurethane, although they did get fairly good penetration with a pre drilled blank they said the odor of the poly would not go away. I don't recall how much thinning etc they had to do.

I do know that the "Pro" method of stabilizing involves Vacuum, pressure and heat. From what I gather whatever resin they use is cured by heat. the vacuum and pressure are both needed to achieve penetration. Vacuum removes the air from even the cells of the wood, pressure replaces that air with resin.

Some other information I have gathered. The better methods of stabilizing to not fill the voids in the wood as much as they coat all the wood even individual cell walls.

I have seen stabilizing used in Forensic Science but so far have not been able to locate just what resins are used. whatever they use is meant to strengthen the cells of tissue and other samples that would otherwise be to fragile to withstand the processes that need to be done to them.

I have also heard there are Risks with the processes used in stabilizing wood which include dangerous fumes and flammability.

finally in searching for resins you will quickly find that there are more of them out there than there are Texans in this group. What would be nice is to find an engineer or chemist that could whittle down the list of choice in order to achieve what we are looking for.

That is about all I know and it is not really much help.

 

[Glass Scratcher]

One of resins of choice for professional stabilizing is Resinol 90C (the 90C stands for the celsius temperature at which the resin is cured at in a water bath)

The product is by Loctite.

But don't tell anyone I told you what the stuff was. :wink:

 

[GouletPens]

I actually called Curtis Seebeck and talked to him last night. He has done just about every kind of stabilizing process with materials available to guys like me. He said the Resinol 90C was about the only thing that really ever came close to the commercial stuff, but only about half as good. He basically said that you're better off sending it off to someone who can do it the real way, and I'm inclined to agree. I'll let the pro stabilizers do what they do best, so I can spend my time doing what I do best. I am experimenting with poly and vacuum, but only b/c I already have all the supplies and it won't cost me anything but a little time.

 

[Skye]

Skye, I'm trying to find a way to stabilize things like tulipwood ....blabber blabber blabber blabber.... what to thin it with? I can only imagine throwing in one more factor for the catalyst ratio.....

Ah, when you said "casting" I thought you meant like making blanks out of resin, not stabilizing. Get your terminology skraight!

 

[GouletPens]

Skye, I'm using the terminology right, I'm just talking about multiple things in the same thread :bulgy-eyes: I'm trying to figure out 3 entirely different processes, and I'm cross-breeding all of my posts from the various threads I'm using to talk about them all! I must be confusing the crap out of everyone. Sorry!!

I have 3 different things I'm trying to learn:
1) Stabilizing solid blanks with something (currently poly under vacuum)
2) Casting PR with dye
3) Casting "wasted" wood blanks with Alumilite

Does that make any sense?