Ligget
Member
Anthony is this option available to everyone?
Berea "petition" -- the Churchill/Grande issues
- Thread starter redfishsc
- Start date
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redfishsc
Member
INDEED! I'm hoping our good buddy will inform us on how to get some of those babies!
PenWorks
Member
Mark, it is available to everyone buying them from me 
They are ordered and I will post them on my web site when they arrive.
They are ordered and I will post them on my web site when they arrive.
redfishsc
Member
Many thanks Anthony, I'll be looking for them. Be sure to let us know when they come available.
brycej
Member
Originally posted by PenWorks
Mark, it is available to everyone buying them from me
Anthony, are the nib holders available as well or just the complete kits?
Ligget
Member
Brilliant![]
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rclotsch
Member
I have made 3 Churchill Pens using the Berea kits. The first one broke right at this weak point. The other 2 I pressed in using a metal sleave over the plastic threads to transfer the stress directly to the metal rim below---So far, these have been fine.
Since Berea doesn't seem to be listening to us on this problem, I spoke with CS-USA about the problem and suggested to them that they should sell the Churchill Type pen from Dayacom (with metal modification) since they already purchase many of their kits from this vendor. Hopefully, this message gets to their purchaser and then "Bye Bye" to Berea for these pen kits (unless they change this problem part to metal). Perhaps, Berea may have more interest in resolving this problem when customers have a better alternative and their sales of this kit drop off. The power of the marketplace. We'll see.
Since Berea doesn't seem to be listening to us on this problem, I spoke with CS-USA about the problem and suggested to them that they should sell the Churchill Type pen from Dayacom (with metal modification) since they already purchase many of their kits from this vendor. Hopefully, this message gets to their purchaser and then "Bye Bye" to Berea for these pen kits (unless they change this problem part to metal). Perhaps, Berea may have more interest in resolving this problem when customers have a better alternative and their sales of this kit drop off. The power of the marketplace. We'll see.
jack barnes
Member
I bought 2 Cambridges(IMOP just an up graded El Grande) and both broke, what a waste of money.
Jack
Jack
I purchased many of the kits mentioned here and never had one break. Why is it that every time some one has a problem with a kit the first one getting blamed is the manufacturer? I have no problem stating that I have made many mistakes in my days and am at fault for most of my problems. How are you folks putting these together? What tools are being used that could be causing this? Are parts getting cocked as you are pressing them together? I really like this kit and so do my customers and just because a few people have problems I don't go for the head of the manufacturer for this. Innocent until proven guilty. I will continue to buy until the facts show other then user error. And what does going to another supplier do? From what it looks like they have their problems to. I don't think going to another company will solve the problem on this kit. I think this needs to re-evaluated before we start head hunting.
redfishsc
Member
Because there are a LOT of them breaking in the exact same spot by people assembling them the same way they do any other kit. Having to make and use a push-block is reasonable, but there are those who use them and have still had trouble. That's not user error, that's a weak link in their product. I've never once heard of a Gent, with a metal coupler, break. I've heard pile upon pile of Churchills, Elgrandes, and even a few Cambridge break.
We aren't head hunting. We are asking Berea to improve a product and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Why is it that only some of them break and most don't? I just don't understand this. If the piece is made of metal won't that change the weight? how about the cost of the kit? I have heard many complaints on weight and cost. It just seems to be that what ever the kit is some one has a problem with it or doesn't like it. I still haven't heard a definitive fact that leads me to believe that it is a kit issue. I'm sorry I just don't see it.
Curly Joe - Like you, I have never had a Churchill (or an El Grande) break as described. That being said, I do believe that this is a weak point in the components. There are just too many talented pen makers who have had this exact problem. I'm not sure that metal is the right way to solve the problem, but the Ligero (which is a near twin of the El Grande) used a metal coupler without significantly inreasing the weight or balance.
If my memory is right, these kits were designed with the plastic parts because everyone was bitching about the metal parts that were used on the other kits available at the time.
redfishsc
Member
Russ has hit the dilemma on the head, but I'm thinking the part could either be made with a thicker plastic insert, or perhaps even machined out of a lighter metal like aluminum.
As far as effecting the cost, the Churchill is already a bit inflated IMO, especially for parts that might break.
kirkfranks
Member
So has there been any response from Berea yet?
redfishsc
Member
Not yet, but it hasn't been too awful long since I first emailed them, a little over a week.
bobaltig
Member
Just to be pragmatic, let me ask this question please. How much more would you be willing to pay for the kit to get a metal coupler? There's tremendous difference between the cost of metal and delrin. I'm sure the cost of the kit with a metal coupling would be significantly more than the current price point.
I have made about a dozen Churchills and maybe a dozen more El Grandes. Out of all those pens, I have not had any couplings break on assembly or because of normal owner use. I have had one break when I disassembled the pen to refinish it because I was satisfied with the finished product. With that kind of failure rate, I wouldn't be willing to pay $5 or %6 more per kit. Here's why.
I lose a kit because I break the coupling, and I've lost a little less than $15 (the cost of the replacement kit I'll have to use). I pay $5 additional for 24 pen kits and I'm out $120. I'd much prefer to keep things the way they are, toss the broken kit in the trash, and keep the additional $105 I didn't have to spend. I might even use that money to buy 7 more kits and have even more fun.
Bob
I have made about a dozen Churchills and maybe a dozen more El Grandes. Out of all those pens, I have not had any couplings break on assembly or because of normal owner use. I have had one break when I disassembled the pen to refinish it because I was satisfied with the finished product. With that kind of failure rate, I wouldn't be willing to pay $5 or %6 more per kit. Here's why.
I lose a kit because I break the coupling, and I've lost a little less than $15 (the cost of the replacement kit I'll have to use). I pay $5 additional for 24 pen kits and I'm out $120. I'd much prefer to keep things the way they are, toss the broken kit in the trash, and keep the additional $105 I didn't have to spend. I might even use that money to buy 7 more kits and have even more fun.
Bob
redfishsc
Member
Good reasoning here. I understand what you're saying. May I ante up a bit and add some more thought?
First question, are you really only out $15 for the kit? What about the hour (or two, three, four....) of time you spent on the first, and now the second (replacement) kit? Most penturners charge (hopefully) as much as $50 per hour turning pens. $50 buys a lot of kits.
Or perhaps what a customer thinks about your pen when if breaks it (or, probably more correctly, finishes breaking the hairline crack that often forms when you press the pen together)? Will he suspect that you make superior, valuable pens and he just happened to get an odd-man out? Not the customers I have. I simply am not willing to risk selling a pen that might break so easily... or might work right for years. Make that one customer, who paid $100-200 for a nice Churchill, suspicious that the "pen guy" sells cheap pens, and you may have lost his return business.
I know every kit will once in a while come with a goof. I got $60 Imperial once that had a seriously melted nib feed, but that was obviously not the norm nor even common.
I wish I could say the same for the breaking coupler problem on the Churchill/Elgrande.
Firefyter-emt
Member
I dare say that the cost and design of the Ligro is simpler and cheaper to make! The "exposed" parts (IE: cap threads) are still plastic as they have been cut onto the section. The Ligero has a metal thread coupler that is pressed into the body. This has a simple thread almost exactly the same as the posting end of the Churchill. The Ligero section screws in just like the post end, but has threads cut on the section itself to retain the cap. The part, once togather looks almost exactly the same between the two kits. I dare say this is simpler and cheaper to make that that thin dual threaded collar pressed inside a metal coupler that is then pressed into the body.
I would hope, based on a cost to build the part ratio, the cost of the kit would go down. There is much less to tool to build the Ligero style section and thread coupler than the Berea style.
I would hope, based on a cost to build the part ratio, the cost of the kit would go down. There is much less to tool to build the Ligero style section and thread coupler than the Berea style.
redfishsc
Member
Well, I have received NO response from Berea in the form of personal communication.
However, SOMEBODY was listening. There are several suppliers who are now stocking Churchills, El Grandes, and Cambridges with the metal nib couplers (plated to match the kit plating, not black).
One of them is getting the kits from Berea (I can't say about the other b/c I haven't asked him).
So perhaps SOMEBODY somewhere was listening.
I for one, am quite HAPPY!!
However, SOMEBODY was listening. There are several suppliers who are now stocking Churchills, El Grandes, and Cambridges with the metal nib couplers (plated to match the kit plating, not black).
One of them is getting the kits from Berea (I can't say about the other b/c I haven't asked him).
So perhaps SOMEBODY somewhere was listening.
I for one, am quite HAPPY!!
Mikey
Member
FWIW, Berea knows of the problem. When I was in there last year buying kits/parts, an employee who shall go nameless told me that he wished that their plastic part was instead metal like the baron. He knew of the breakage problem but said nothing was being done at the time. Berea does listen to customers though and I'm sure in time it will be modified. Problem is that it may be too late for many people.
Randy_
Member
For a bunch of reasons I won't bother you with, I have never crafted one of the kits mentioned above so I have never seen one of the failures that is being discussed. Anyone out there have a picture of a failed part so myself and other ignorants can see what the problem looks like?
I seem to recall a discussion where it was suggested that this was mostly a crafter's problem and folks were not being careful enough when assembling the kits. Perhaps the discussion was about another kit......not quite sure.
It does seem to me that if some folks can build significant numbers of these kits without failures, perhaps it behooves those who are having trouble to re-examine their own crafting techniques for faults. That being said, if I were a manufacturer and had a product that a significant number of my customers were having trouble with (even if it was basically a sound product) I would make an effort to update the product to make it more user friendly.
My own personal experience with Berea is they are less than totally sympathetic to problems with their products. To be fair, there are certainly others who are quite satisfied with the response they receive from the company when reporting problems.
Honestly, I have to say my feeling is that problems get way overblown on forums like this and that a few unhappy people can stir the pot and make a problem seem worse than it really is. It would be nice to know (in real numbers) how big the problem really is. Think I will start a little poll and see if we can narrow in on the magnitude of the problem.
I seem to recall a discussion where it was suggested that this was mostly a crafter's problem and folks were not being careful enough when assembling the kits. Perhaps the discussion was about another kit......not quite sure.
It does seem to me that if some folks can build significant numbers of these kits without failures, perhaps it behooves those who are having trouble to re-examine their own crafting techniques for faults. That being said, if I were a manufacturer and had a product that a significant number of my customers were having trouble with (even if it was basically a sound product) I would make an effort to update the product to make it more user friendly.
My own personal experience with Berea is they are less than totally sympathetic to problems with their products. To be fair, there are certainly others who are quite satisfied with the response they receive from the company when reporting problems.
Honestly, I have to say my feeling is that problems get way overblown on forums like this and that a few unhappy people can stir the pot and make a problem seem worse than it really is. It would be nice to know (in real numbers) how big the problem really is. Think I will start a little poll and see if we can narrow in on the magnitude of the problem.
Randy_
Member
Matt: How about mentioning some names?? After stirring the pot, I'm sure there are quite a few people who would like to have that information!!
If resellers are getting those kits from Berea, it only makes sense that individual pen crafters should be able to get them as well??
redfishsc
Member
Lol, Randy, you're right. Not sure what I was thinking. You can get the Churchills from Ernie Beartoothwoods.com and from Anthony at Penworks.
I'm not sure that complaining, even loudly, about a product that embarrassed us in front of a customer who paid $80-$150 for a fountain pen----- because it broke like a twig with very little effort----- can hardly be called "overblown".
Either way, seems like the problem is solved as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure that complaining, even loudly, about a product that embarrassed us in front of a customer who paid $80-$150 for a fountain pen----- because it broke like a twig with very little effort----- can hardly be called "overblown".
Either way, seems like the problem is solved as far as I can tell.
Randy_
Member
Not quite sure how the problem is solved if you can only get Churchills? Won't folks still have the same difficulty with the El Grande kit and the Cambridge kit?
Randy_
Member
I'm still confused??
I know that Ernie is a Berea reseller. Is he the one that has all three kits in stock with the metal couplers??
According to the post by Anthony, he only has the Churchill and is getting it from Dyacom, not Berea, and it will be several months before he actually has it in stock as it is only on order right now.
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redfishsc
Member
Yes. Ernie's email stated that he was getting all three (EG, Churchill, Cambridge) with metal couplers, and the coupler was Berea's.
Here is the quote directly from his email:
Randy_
Member
Thanks, Matt. That pretty much clears it up. Hope the new part will fix the problem!! Sometimes a fix leads to other problems. Hope that won't be the case here.
Some folks will express concerns about the extra weight of the metal vs. plastic piece; but for such a small part it can't be more than a gram or two and should not be a "real" issue.
Obviously, a fix like this doesn't occur overnight. It takes a while to tool up for a new part and and actually get it in production. Given that assumption, I wonder why Berea has been so tight-lipped about the problem?? Seems like they could have acknowledged that there was a problem and announced that a fix was in the works instead of the stonewalling with the response of, ".....first we have heard of it...." Seems to me they have just let the problem fester and irritated a lot of people unnecessarily. Not the way I would have handled the situation; but it seems to work for them.
It is because of this attitude (and a difficult web site) that I rarely ever buy directly from Berea any more. BB is my current vendor of choice for Berea products.
Some folks will express concerns about the extra weight of the metal vs. plastic piece; but for such a small part it can't be more than a gram or two and should not be a "real" issue.
Obviously, a fix like this doesn't occur overnight. It takes a while to tool up for a new part and and actually get it in production. Given that assumption, I wonder why Berea has been so tight-lipped about the problem?? Seems like they could have acknowledged that there was a problem and announced that a fix was in the works instead of the stonewalling with the response of, ".....first we have heard of it...." Seems to me they have just let the problem fester and irritated a lot of people unnecessarily. Not the way I would have handled the situation; but it seems to work for them.
It is because of this attitude (and a difficult web site) that I rarely ever buy directly from Berea any more. BB is my current vendor of choice for Berea products.
bitshird
Member
Randy I wonder why Berea has been so tight-lipped about the problem?? Seems like they could have acknowledged that there was a problem and announced that a fix was in the works instead of the stonewalling with the response of said:Randy, I believe this is the new standard cop out for most manufacturers and dealers, We have a three month old machine at work, it's been giving us some trouble, another shop has the same machine and same problem, the factory rep has been to his place 4 times over the last six months, but he tells us this is the first time I've seen this problem
Randy_
Member
Sadly, Ken, I fear you are correct. And you can add politicians to your list!!
Where can we find some that turn pens??:biggrin:
redfishsc
Member
Randy, you might need to direct that question to Ed4copies, he seems to have solved that issue for himself!
laurie sullivan
Member
I'm a little late with this thread but I gave a pen to my neighbor and he dropped on the floor and the threaded insert under the cap split. so my only recourse was to buy a new kit and tap out the broken parts, replace them and give back the pen.
I have not bought that pen kit since........I will go back if the parts change.
Laurie
I have not bought that pen kit since........I will go back if the parts change.
Laurie
redfishsc
Member
They have changed. You can get the Churchills with metal couplers from Anthony at Penworks and all three pens from Ernie at Beartoothwoods.
tbroye
Member
I Emailed Brea, Friday asking if the would sell the part seperately so those of us who have some kits can change the part if we want. I bought 3 Churchill from some here at IAP, made on gave it to BIL and with in a week it was broken. Would love to get just the part then I could repair the one and buld the others.
Randy_
Member
redfishsc
Member
Lol, oops. I forgot about that. Thanks Randy. You pick up on the slightest thing! Nice catch