Alternate ebony --- why??

[watch_art]

This pen is made from an alternate material - Alternate Ebony.
I'll never buy this stuff again. Black acrylic or ebonite look exactly the same when finished. In fact, the finial is black acrylic. Couldn't thread something that small from this alternate material. Actually blew up the first barrel I tried and I'm VERY glad I ordered three blanks instead of two.

I don't see the point of this stuff. There's no appearance of wood grain or anything. Why not just call it brittle black plastic? :tongue:

It's 135mm open, 147mm capped, and 186mm posted.
Section is a pinched 13mm thick, with 9/16" threads for cap to barrel.

 

[ed4copies]

Can we clarify that only ONE of those pens is alternate ebony? The transparent one is a different material.

 

[crabcreekind]

Yea the transparent one is his smoky plastic from another thread.

 

[watch_art]

Oh yeah - the clear one is a PR. And I don't want to slander all the alternates. The horn and tortoise are gorgeous - drop dead beautiful materials. This one I don't understand though. I think it would be totally amazing if there was a sort of wood grain look to it, similar to the alternate tortoise... As it is I think ebonite or black acrylic would do just as well.

 

[InvisibleMan]

Don't know anything about the material, but I do know I like the exposed clip ring and overall shape of that pen.

 

[watch_art]

Thanks! The exposed clip ring is sort of a necessity.

Here's another...

 

[Texatdurango]

This pen is made from an alternate material - Alternate Ebony.
I'll never buy this stuff again. Black acrylic or ebonite look exactly the same when finished. In fact, the finial is black acrylic. Couldn't thread something that small from this alternate material. Actually blew up the first barrel I tried and I'm VERY glad I ordered three blanks instead of two.

I don't see the point of this stuff. There's no appearance of wood grain or anything. Why not just call it brittle black plastic? :tongue:

It's 135mm open, 147mm capped, and 186mm posted.
Section is a pinched 13mm thick, with 9/16" threads for cap to barrel.

I'm guessing because it wouldn't sell as well! :biggrin: Half the blanks I see being sold have spectacular sounding names. I think some vendors stay up nights dreaming up catchy names and descriptions for their blanks.

Which blank would you rather buy... "light green" or "Springtime New England honeydew melon"?

 

[Texatdurango]

Shawn, In your second photo, what is the brown pen... "alternate mud"? :biggrin:

I'm getting to where I am liking the shapes of your pens more every time I see a new one!

 

[watch_art]

Thanks!
That's actually brown ebonite from exotics.com.
Really nice ebonite - was a joy to turn!
I wish it was a little smaller so I could have left some of the rough surface from the blank showing in the cap. Next time I get some of this I'll try to make one of my oversize pens so the cap at least will have some of that funky rough stuff on it. Looks sorta like the pen was formed from tree bark or something.

 

[glycerine]

You got duped! Sorry. The pen looks great though!

 

[Dustygoose]

I like the exposed clip ring. Doesn't look like it effects the cap OD too much.

 

[watch_art]

Not really. I just have to create a little lip on the cap, under the finial, for the clip ring to fit over.

 

[Jgrden]

Good points, thanks for your sage input.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you think it looks like black plastic, then, I'm sure, that's what it looks like in person as well as on the monitor.
Ebony is problematic to buy and turn. Personally, I just give up on using it and look for other woods that are attractive. You can try dyeing some woods black.

 

[Kaspar]

There's been some issues, internationally, with the way Ebony is harvested. Something about the way you can't tell whether the ebony is solid black without cutting the tree down, so you destroy twenty trees just to get the one that's perfect. It's in danger of becoming ... well, endangered.

So an alternate could possibly be an attempt to mitigate the problem by providing a substitute material.

Could be a marketing ploy, too. :tongue:

 

[ed4copies]

Alternative Ivory has been around since I started turning in the mid 1990's. The same company markets all the "alternatives" and, to me they all turn very similarly.

I discovered Alternative Ebony after dozens of my ebony (wood) slimlines all cracked at one show. It was my belief that the "best" ebony was pure black. The one thing I knew for certain--when I started using "alternative ebony", my pens no longer cracked.

As I have said to anyone who listens, I have no problem turning any plastic. So, if some think it is brittle, perhaps it is (for them).

Makes a VERY NICE black pen, polishes well and is not prone to shattering on the lathe or in drilling---so, call it what you like---perhaps you'd prefer "Mt Blanc BLACK"!

OK

 

[crabcreekind]

Ed,
I think when he said that is was brittle, you also have to take into account that he is threading it. Also, he is making tiny little finial pieces that he has to thread also.
I personally had no problem turning it when it was a kit pen. It had a tube in it, and was well supported on my lathe. So it may be fine to turn for everybody on a kit pen.

 

[glycerine]

Alternative Ivory has been around since I started turning in the mid 1990's. The same company markets all the "alternatives" and, to me they all turn very similarly.

I discovered Alternative Ebony after dozens of my ebony (wood) slimlines all cracked at one show. It was my belief that the "best" ebony was pure black. The one thing I knew for certain--when I started using "alternative ebony", my pens no longer cracked.

As I have said to anyone who listens, I have no problem turning any plastic. So, if some think it is brittle, perhaps it is (for them).

Makes a VERY NICE black pen, polishes well and is not prone to shattering on the lathe or in drilling---so, call it what you like---perhaps you'd prefer "Mt Blanc BLACK"!

OK

Ed, maybe you and Shawn could talk and you could find out WHY he thinks it's brittle and not assume it's "just him". What tool(s) is he using? Lathe speed? Light touch? Shallow cuts? Sharp tools? Brittle when turning, threading or both? What color socks is he wearing?:biggrin: etc.

 

[Rifleman1776]

"As I have said to anyone who listens, I have no problem turning any plastic"
Ed, I have bought some of your non-wood materials and find them to be outstanding. However, some folks here remember me as being strongly anti-non-wood. I still prefer wood and natural products. However, must admit, the highest priced pen I ever sold ($300.00) was an alternate/faux ivory. (not the same material sold by the popular vendors) An alternate ebony might also be possible using phenolics or micarta. They have a look and feel that is less 'plastic-like' than some others. Be warned, some of the phenolics are hard and turn about as you would expect glass to turn.

 

[watch_art]

the blow out I had was entirely my fault. I just mentioned it to mention it, as part of the whole, "hey I made a pen, this is what happened..." THe brittleness was constant though. I had to take very light, shallow cuts (if you'll call em that) with my Woodchuck tool and had lots of tiny tiny - I don't know - bubbles or pockets from the material sort of ripping away rather than cutting away. The blank that blew up was the worst of the three - the other two did pretty good. The only time I had difficulty threading it was with the finial. That's a very small piece to thread, and some materials can't take that. Right now I only have a 5/16"x24tpi tap/die set for finials - which is WAY to coarse for this type of material. Yes I know - I need to order something finer. I went ahead and made the finial from regular black acrylic (coal mine black from BTW) - and after sanding and polishing I couldn't tell any difference between the finished materials. That's why I said I don't see the point to this stuff. It polishes up real pretty, but so does black plastic or even ebonite, and they're both easier to turn and require less of a light touch and care. I can be pretty hard on a lot of materials I have, even some of the PRs I have, and I don't have this happen.

If I was using a really nice sharp gouge I'm sure I would have had fewer problems - but it wasn't THAT bad. I mean, it's not self turning is it.

 

[watch_art]

Phenolics huh? Never heard about them. **marches off to google some stuff**

 

[azamiryou]

I don't usually turn plastics, but I ended up with a piece of this as a freebie with an order. As I was thinking about what to do with it, I fumbled and dropped it, and it broke. The floor is thin carpet over concrete. The fracture line is smooth and curved, like obsidian.

I haven't turned it yet, but from that experience, I wouldn't hesitate to refer to it as brittle. And I can't imagine it looks or feels more like ebony than any other black plastic.

 

[ed4copies]

Alternative Ivory has been around since I started turning in the mid 1990's. The same company markets all the "alternatives" and, to me they all turn very similarly.

I discovered Alternative Ebony after dozens of my ebony (wood) slimlines all cracked at one show. It was my belief that the "best" ebony was pure black. The one thing I knew for certain--when I started using "alternative ebony", my pens no longer cracked.

As I have said to anyone who listens, I have no problem turning any plastic. So, if some think it is brittle, perhaps it is (for them).

Makes a VERY NICE black pen, polishes well and is not prone to shattering on the lathe or in drilling---so, call it what you like---perhaps you'd prefer "Mt Blanc BLACK"!

OK

Ed, maybe you and Shawn could talk and you could find out WHY he thinks it's brittle and not assume it's "just him". What tool(s) is he using? Lathe speed? Light touch? Shallow cuts? Sharp tools? Brittle when turning, threading or both? What color socks is he wearing?:biggrin: etc.

As I read that (my entry) it sounds defensive. Dawn and I have discussed this at some length and decided that we will be adding a "comments" section to Exotics so that customer observations can be added. We also plan to change the description of Alternate Ebony to clarify that there is no 'grain' -- it is black plastic.

We have often talked about an "ease of turning rating". I believe I will open a new thread on that issue.

I apologize if I sounded defensive, it was really just my intention to give my own comments (same as any other turner here). But this thread will have the effect of adding a couple features to Exotics.

Thank you for bringing up the material---we will try to describe it more accurately.

My personal opinion of the material is reflected in the fact I was just asked to turn 10 pens for a special project. I chose the Atrax and Triton, in green madreperlato (3), blue madreperlato(3) and alternate ebony (4).
The recipients were duly impressed, I was told.

I don't know why one would break, however. I have dropped them often on the concrete floor. Many blanks HAVE broken (RhinoPlastic), but the alternatives have always bounced. From reading this, obviously YMMV!!

Coming soon on Exotics: Customer comments-=-good and bad. We will be hoping to find product characteristics to improve our descriptions.

 

[Rifleman1776]

"Alternative Ivory has been around since I started turning in the mid 1990's. The same company markets all the "alternatives" and, to me they all turn very similarly."

The one I referred to is distinctly different than the pen turners catalogs sell. It is widely used by knife makers for handle slabs and is, IMHO, much more ivory-like. Very-very difficult to turn. I have one more blank and have procrastinated using it because of the difficulty.
BTW, another black alternative would be buffalo horn.

 

[azamiryou]

I don't know why one would break, however. I have dropped them often on the concrete floor. Many blanks HAVE broken (RhinoPlastic), but the alternatives have always bounced. From reading this, obviously YMMV!!

It sounds like there may be two different materials under discussion. Is it possible something else got mixed in and inadvertently sold as alternate ebony? Or just a bad (brittle) batch from the manufacturer?

Here's a photo showing the way my piece broke.

 

[ed4copies]

It APPEARS that piece is square.

Alternative Ebony comes in a rod, round.

So, yes it appears we are talking about different materials.

 

[azamiryou]

Nope, it's round. That's approximately a quarter-section of it.

 

[azamiryou]

Here's another photo from a different angle.

 

[ed4copies]

From that angle, it is definitely Alt. Ebony.

And yes, I believe it is VERY possible to have a "defect" in the material. They make these rods by the meter--I would be very skeptical if they said they were all identical.

 

[ed4copies]

I invite any and all of you, who have used this product, to make your comments here

If we get this input on ALL of our products, it will assist all future customers in making choices. Additionally, I am adding several hundred products in fall---it will help me evaluate any that should be dropped.

Thanks for your input!!!


(BTW, as a result of this thread, we HAVE changed the description---we'd like to be as accurate as possible!!)

 

[watch_art]

Wow Ed that's awesome!