I have utmost respect for anyone that uses...

Ron Mc · Apr 3, 2006

A table saw to cut anything!!
A friend of mine loaned me a table saw to see if I felt like it would
be worth buying myself or to try to sell for them.
I have always cut all of my segments with a miter saw and have no problem with having my fingers probably too close to the blade.
But the table saw had me scared to death! I tried to cut some old wood first. Just to get the feel and decided after a couple cuts with boards flying back at me and other boards hugging up to the blade begging me to shove my hand down there to get it that it just isn't worth it.
I had several boards just fly back and hit me and boards that I had to push way beyond the blade to save myself.

So in conclusion I wanted to tell all of you that use table saws that you have earned and always will have my respect.

alamocdc · Apr 3, 2006

Ron, like any other power tool, table saws have their dangers. One of the most common causes of table saw injury is removal of safety equipment like the blade guard and splitter. Especially the splitter. This is what is supposed to keep the cut off piece from binding the blade. Most stock splitters also have dogs that keep either piece from being kicked back at you. It only takes one serious kick back to get your attention.

vick · Apr 3, 2006

Ron,
For the small work we do the use of sled's and other jigs greatly helps to make safe cuts. I am the opposite of you cutting small segments on the miter saw seem unsafe to me.
Not to imply anything but if you were having that much trouble with kickback I would guess something was wrong

Blade not raised enough (their is some debate on this but gullets should be clear of the wood.
Using wrong blade (specifically using a cross cut blade to rip)
Dull blade
Saw under powered for the work you were doing
wood drifting from the rip fence
or any number of other things

I am not a propenet of removing safety equipment but both of the saws I have owned were previously owned and did not have splitter on them and I have only experienced kickback once.

pete00 · Apr 3, 2006

ron

i have both a TS and miter saw, i have had kick backs on both.

EVERY TIME I DID it was my fault. Not paying attention, in a hurry, and NOT setting the saws up for the job i was doing(using the right jigs and safety devices)

The reason i know its my fault is because i had someone show me the right way to do it.
When i started i had more lumber flying than i was cutting, so i called in reenforcements to show me.
I NEVER have a problem using it the way its supposed to be.

Dont give up, buy some coffes and donuts and offer them to a "skilled table saw worker" and let him show you the best and safe way. ...pete

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 3, 2006

Billy B, Mike and Pete gave you good advice, I want to add one more thing...

As soon you get comfortable with any power tool is when accidents may occur.

The three fingered expert once said, "Oh I know how to use a table saw, I won't install the blade gaurd because it will take to long, all it is is just one cut"

Rifleman1776 · Apr 3, 2006

I too am scared of my table saw. I consider it the most dangerous tool in a normal home workshop. I had a kickback accident with mine and later learned it was because I was cross cutting while using the fence. The fence is a RIPfence, not to be used for cross cutting as it can cause binding and kick back. I have removed the shield and splitter because I consider it more dangerous to have on than not. When ripping wood, the cut length often twists or closed and binds on the splitter, causing kick back. Or it just catches the end of a ripped piece not allowing further feeding. My safety technique is simply to be very cautious and use push tools and sticks.

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 3, 2006

Originally posted by Rifleman
 I too am scared of my table saw. I consider it the most dangerous tool in a normal home workshop. I had a kickback accident with mine and later learned it was because I was cross cutting while using the fence. The fence is a RIPfence, not to be used for cross cutting as it can cause binding and kick back. I have removed the shield and splitter because I consider it more dangerous to have on than not. When ripping wood, the cut length often twists or closed and binds on the splitter, causing kick back. Or it just catches the end of a ripped piece not allowing further feeding. My safety technique is simply to be very cautious and use push tools and sticks.

My point exactly, this is an accident waiting to happen.

Ralph, your job, should you accept it, is to count your fingers every night.

Ron Mc · Apr 3, 2006

I'll be putting the safety guard on it late this afternoon. Then I'll give it a go again.
Thanks for the advise! It sounds like this tool will take some time to get used to just like the miter saw did.

pete00 · Apr 3, 2006

ron \come to think of it theres a couple of articles in the instructions and articles section on using and building sleds....pete

woodbutcher · Apr 3, 2006

I read this post and decided not to add anything. Then decided to not go with my first thought. Please, I dont want to start a safety debate so I will choose my words carefully. I have used or owned tablesaws for well over 30 yrs. I have never used a saw with any type of guard or safety device. If you like them, use them. If not throw it all away. I dont care. My point is this. Most table saws are not set up correctly. If you read the manual that comes with the saw it will give very detailed instructions on what and how to adjust the thing. It really does matter. Also keep a slick finish on the table and fence. I dont use a good blade, I use great blades and keep them sharp. For me the safety devices seem in the way and a bit of a problem especially on some of the more inexpensive units. Please whether you use the add ons or not just some adjusting can make all the difference. For what its worth, I have never scratched myself on any saw. I hope this helps,
Jim

lybber8 · Apr 4, 2006

I agree with the woodbutcher (Jim Bell). I have taught woodworking and have worked in construction. The most important safty advice is knowledge. I do things on the table saw that I would have never let my students do. I'm sure that you do things on the lathe now that would have scared you to death when you first started. Be careful and stand to the side of all equipment (table saw, lathe, jointer, planner, etc.)if at all possible.

Curt

Johnathan · Apr 4, 2006

Band saw works great for me.

Rifleman1776 · Apr 4, 2006

First: Jim, a safety debate might be a good thing. Debate is an intelligent exchange of ideas, facts and opinions. I have no problem with points of view that differ from mine.
Second: Ron, please read the sentence that follows what you highlighted in red from my posting. There often are real dangers in ripping wood when using the splitter/guard. I made a reasoned decision to remove mine. And I know several people who have lost fingers to their table saw. And my son is an emergency room physician. He sees several table saw accidents a month. (miter/radial saw accidents are less frequent but usually much worse).
My safety guard is to keep my fingers away from the blade. Way-way away. I use pushers and always turn off the motor between cuts before I reposition my work for the next cut. Inefficient and slow but I have all my fingers and intend to keep them.

jdavis · Apr 4, 2006

students must pass safety test and cutting test in order to operate any machine. Knowledge is of utmost importance. I stress safety everyday. I have to.

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 4, 2006

Frank

If your board is jamming on the spliter there may be some tension in the board that is being released causing the gap to close. When this happens jam a wedge into the open kerf.

Push sticks are great, but they will not prevent a kick back

bloggstein · Apr 5, 2006

There's a lot of good info above, I'd just have to second (or third or whatever) the suggestion for sleds. Especially in the field of pen and segmented turning, the stock dimensions are much smaller than a typical tablesaw and it's accessories are designed for. Using a crosscut sled with smaller parts increases the safety by a huge margin, and in the case of segmented turning, you can tune your angles with extreme precision. If you want to, message me, I have a couple links I keep handy to some very nice sleds others have built that I plan on referencing when I build my next one. I'd be happy to share them, but since they're other's work, I'm not sure I should put them all out publicly.

Sharp blades are also a great suggestion. You don't have to buy a $110 high end blade, but I probably would suggest something a little nicer than a $10 no-name borg special. I have a few Craftsman blades that were pretty reasonably priced and do a pretty decent job for me.

The table saw can be a very dangerous tool, but with a few accessories and a good dose of caution, they can be a huge help. Honestly, with some of the pens you regularly produce, I'm really surprised that's *not* what you've been using. That's a huge compliment to your craftsmanship, as I know I couldn't do anything at all like that without one and have those little pieces even come close to mating up right.

alamocdc · Apr 5, 2006

I was using Freud blades until I bought my new Forrest. The Freuds allowed me to do good work, but the Forrest is amazing. I'm now a full advocate of high end blades.

jscola · Apr 5, 2006

I have only used my bandsaw to cut blanks but want to try my table saw. what type blade would be good ? how many teeth per inch & what brand ? Joe

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 5, 2006

The difference between a cheap carbide blade and an expensive one is how well they are balanced and how many times you can sharpen them.

I also have both Freud and Forrest, both are good blades, but as Billy mentioned, Forrest is an amazing blade, by far the best on the market.

woodman928 · Apr 5, 2006

Buy books, videos, CD, DVDs whatever you can get your hands on about setting up a table saw the RIGHT WAY You will learn to like the saw and find it will work for you and be safe to operate. I have leaned the hard way that setup is the most important thing you can do thats with guards or no guards. And never use the saw when you are distracted or tired thats not the time to lean how to user the saw. There are some good videos out there on setup and use dont cheap out here buy them and use them.[^]

alamocdc · Apr 5, 2006

Prpoer setup is important enough that several of my woodworking mags include saw setup and tuning articles every year or so.

OSCAR15 · Apr 6, 2006

TO ALL: I use a tablesaw as I do a lot of woodwork other than turning. A tablesaw is relatively safe, if you learn what you are doing, and ALWAYS follow safety rules....To get you pointed in the right direction:

I love using my tablesaw, but...There are several things you need to know first.
The wood "flying" back is called kickback. It occurs when a small strip of wood is trapped between blade, and fence. If done properly, this won't happen. Second reason for kickback..using fence to crosscut. Alwawys use miter (not fence) to crosscut. Blace should be set no more than 1/4 th inch higher than piece you are cutting for safety, and to minimize tearout. There are other things that come into play. PUSHSTICKS AND FEATHERBOARDS are a necessity for safety. Finally, It really isn't the best tool to cut pen blanks for length.
If you use for this, attach a auxilliary wood fence to saw fence, then add stop block to cut consistant lengths.
Miter saw is better. BUT...to rip stock into strips...here is what to do....
Set fence to where the piece (presumably 3/4" square) for pen blank is such that the resulting blank comes from opposite side of blade, not between fence and blade. Move fence up for subsequent cuts. Always use push sticks! Learn to use safely before attempting. Hope this helps...Oscar
PS making your own blanks WILL save you a bundle. If you do not own a tablesaw, or aren't comfortable using one, find someone who is (or take your stock to a cabinet shop). It will still save you, or pay them with a pen!

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 6, 2006

Reasons for kickback (in no particular order). If you think of others please list them

1. Warped board not sitting flat on the table
2. Warped board not sitting flush on the fence
3. Board moves away from the fence while making a cut
4. Tension is released when the board is being ripped
.....A. Kerf closes and binds on blade
.....B. Kerf opens and pushes against the fence and into the blade.
5. Spilter is not inline with the blade

jscola · Apr 6, 2006

You should always stand to one side so if you do get a piece of wood being kicked back you are out of the line of fire. I learned the hard way. If those pieces hit you they hurt like heck""

alamocdc · Apr 6, 2006

Originally posted by OSCAR15
 Set fence to where the piece (presumably 3/4" square) for pen blank is such that the resulting blank comes from opposite side of blade, not between fence and blade. Move fence up for subsequent cuts. ...Oscar

Oscar, there is nothing incorrect in any of your statements. However, I don't cut my blanks in this manner, but I don't have the final blank trapped between the fence and blade either. I use a stop block on the back fence of my sled. That allows me to make repetitive cuts with one setup. No kickbacks, no binding and no problems. Just another method.

OSCAR15 · Apr 6, 2006

alamocdc: Sleds work great Billy, and are safe. I didn't inclede this method as I figured most novices to a tablesaw wouldn't have a sled....

OSCAR15 · Apr 6, 2006

alamocdc: Which forreset blade did you get? I have been planning to get one, as I have heard may say the are supurb.... You buy combo? Thanks Oscar

woodbutcher · Apr 6, 2006

I have a woodworkerll on my table saw and the Forrest Chopmaster on my 12'' Dewalt slider. Both provide a mirror finish on hard wood. I really do not remember the tooth count on either blade, they just cut real good.
Jim

alamocdc · Apr 6, 2006

Oscar, I got the 3/32" Woodworker II.

Woodnknots · Apr 8, 2006

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA
 Reasons for kickback (in no particular order). If you think of others please list them

1. Warped board not sitting flat on the table
2. Warped board not sitting flush on the fence
3. Board moves away from the fence while making a cut
4. Tension is released when the board is being ripped
.....A. Kerf closes and binds on blade
.....B. Kerf opens and pushes against the fence and into the blade.
5. Spilter is not inline with the blade

All these things, and also, if you have a table saw that allows it, setup. I use an alignment kit to align my rip fence and my tabletop/saw blade. The rip fence should be a couple thousandths of an inch farther from the blade at the far end than at the close end. This helps tremendously with preventing binding and kickback, and does not affect the accuracy of the rip cut. I have used my fence for cross cuts, but only when I know the piece is perfectly square and I have to have all 4 sides equal (a perfect square). Also, I would never try that if I didn't have faith in my fence setup. And even with all that, I stay out of the line of fire of kickbacks and always use push sticks. I've had a couple of kickbacks, and oddly enough not when I was using the fence to cross cut. It was always when I was cutting a large piece of plywood and couldn't get it supported properly. But after getting hit by a 4 foot piece of plywood, I learned where you stand is as important as how you use your saw.

AirportFF · Apr 9, 2006

Ron, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not. I'm too lazy to read it all. But one of the major reasons that a TS will bind while ripping is the fence being out of adjustment. Measure the distance from the blade to the fence on the front and back of the blade. The back should be larger. If it's smaller the wood binds as it passes through the smaller opening. I believe I have mine set at about 1/32" wider in the outfeed side of the blade.

EDIT: Now I see the post before mine[

]

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 9, 2006

Dave and Clint

Yes it is important to have your blade/fence aligned as sugessted. Thanks for pointing that out.

woodwish · Apr 11, 2006

I'd agree with most of the above. I feel safer using the TS than about any other power tool, but I also probably give it the most respect. Besides, do you really need all 10 fingers? [

]

Texas Taco · Apr 11, 2006

A woodworker at one of our plants in Louisiana just sent me a link to a tool system I may look into a little more. I copied some of his email here for you to see what he had to say:

How I found out about sawmill creek was from a website for a new tool, or should I say group of tools I purchased. Take a look at their website and take it from me these tools are extremely accurate. The guy that invented them, touts them, as a complete replacement for the table-saw, radial arm saw and jointer. I don't know if I would ever actually get rid of my table saw but it has definitely replaced it for some jobs. It is also far superior to the jointer for 3/4" edge work and its all done with a circular saw and router. Check out their website. http://www.eurekazone.org/index.html

If any of you have any specific questions check out their section on Saw Mill Creek or email me. I feel my purchase was well worth the money. The best part about it is the guy who invented it is a carpenter himself and all his components are made in the USA. He also does all of his own customer service although he is a little hard to understand. He is a middle-aged man of Greek decent and has a very strong accent but he definitely knows carpentry and woodworking....

This comes at a very good time for me since I have started looking (wishing) to replace my current table saw with a new one. I don't use a TS very often and the space it would take up in my shop is not something I really wanted so this is looking really good to me. Any comments here on the system? Have y'all seen the system or had the chance to use it? The woodworker than sent me this info is a far better woodworker than I am so I think I will take a serious look into this when the purchase time comes.

alamocdc · Apr 11, 2006

I've been using something similar for some time now. It's an 8' piece of extruded aluminum about 3" wide and 1/2" thick. I either clamp or screw it to what I want to cut or route and go for it. Of course with mine you have to measure and mark allowing for baseplate distances. This is probably easier to set up.

ycfdino · Apr 16, 2006

Originally posted by Hemibee
 A woodworker at one of our plants in Louisiana just sent me a link to a tool system I may look into a little more. I copied some of his email here for you to see what he had to say:

How I found out about sawmill creek was from a website for a new tool, or should I say group of tools I purchased. Take a look at their website and take it from me these tools are extremely accurate. The guy that invented them, touts them, as a complete replacement for the table-saw, radial arm saw and jointer. I don't know if I would ever actually get rid of my table saw but it has definitely replaced it for some jobs. It is also far superior to the jointer for 3/4" edge work and its all done with a circular saw and router. Check out their website. http://www.eurekazone.org/index.html

If any of you have any specific questions check out their section on Saw Mill Creek or email me. I feel my purchase was well worth the money. The best part about it is the guy who invented it is a carpenter himself and all his components are made in the USA. He also does all of his own customer service although he is a little hard to understand. He is a middle-aged man of Greek decent and has a very strong accent but he definitely knows carpentry and woodworking....

This comes at a very good time for me since I have started looking (wishing) to replace my current table saw with a new one. I don't use a TS very often and the space it would take up in my shop is not something I really wanted so this is looking really good to me. Any comments here on the system? Have y'all seen the system or had the chance to use it? The woodworker than sent me this info is a far better woodworker than I am so I think I will take a serious look into this when the purchase time comes.

ycfdino · Apr 16, 2006

Hi Guys.
I noticed few hits on our site from this forum and I stopped here to wish you all Happy Easter and safe woodworking.

If the forum allows me, I can explain the benefits of the ez smart system and the Dead Wood Concept.

YCF Dino
Eurekazone Inc.

RogerGarrett · Apr 16, 2006

Originally posted by woodwish
 I'd agree with most of the above. I feel safer using the TS than about any other power tool, but I also probably give it the most respect. Besides, do you really need all 10 fingers? []

Hey! As a professional clarinetist and conductor, I find it useful to have all 10 fingers. I guess I could give up my right thumb and still be able to make do............

Seriously - I agree with the TS being the safest and most deadly in many ways. I learned how to use mine by paying a friend in the woodworking business (he is a custom woodworker - has a professional shop now, but he used to teach woodworking at the high school level for many years) to teach me the fundamentals and safety issues. His advice was to lose the guard with a strong explanation for why. He explained to me that the guard works for some things but is more dangerous for others - and that if I follow good rules and not break them, I will be safe. I've had a couple of kickbacks - none injured me except one - and it was a fluke. A small piece deflected off of the fence and hit my safety glasses - cut my cheek. It was only a four inch piece of wood, but it nearly knocked me over! There was a humorous part of this - I reached up and grabbed the glasses that were now sitting on top of my head skewed to one side - put them on and couldn't focus. I thought to myself - MY GAWD, I'VE LOST VISION.........!!!! Turned out my lenses had popped out of the glasses - straight forward into the garbage bin. Took me 40 minutes to locate them.

I love my table saw - but like woodwish - I respect it and always follow the rules I've set for myself. Having said that - I tend to rip longer pieces for blanks and then cross cut them on the chop saw.

Best,
Roger Garrett

Ron in Drums PA · Apr 16, 2006

Originally posted by RogerGarrett
Hey! As a professional clarinetist

Just the person I wanted to meet.

Are clarinets turned from African Black Wood or Ebony?

dfurlano · Apr 16, 2006

Ron I think they are made from ebonite.

I have utmost respect for anyone that uses...

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