Are Ken and Lou Being Ripped Off??

Randy_ · Dec 8, 2008

There is a discussion of this subject embedded in another post where it might be missed so I am starting this thread in the hope that it will be seen by more members.

In yesterdays business classified (http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39862) there was an ad for laser services and products and included were two kits that looked very much like Ken's Stars and Stripes kit and Lou's Puzzle kit. It appears that kits designed by Ken and Lou have been copied and are being sold for profit by another company. The current discussion can be seen here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39852 and the kits in question can be seen here: http://www.lazerlinez.com/products.asp?cat=26 .

I have gone to the Lazerlinez site and placed a comment to the effect that the two kits appear to be copies of the intellectual property of others and the use/sale of these is highly unethical. Since comments are reviewed before they are posted, I don't expect they will see the light of day.

Mr. Laubsher, I hope you will see this discussion and explain to us your justification for borrowing the work of others for your own profit.

cowchaser · Dec 8, 2008

Not to sound like I am bashing in here, but I see 2 things happening so don't kill me.

1. From the other thread everyone agrees that we support those that support us and we all know who these belong to.

2. Is it our place to get involved here? I am sure it has come to the attention of Ken and Lou and I will bet they are doing what is necessary to take care of it. I don't see where anyone owes "US" an explanation for anything. They owe to the 2 that created it.

Like I said I am just sitting here reading all this and in my own mind (not thinking or anyone else) I am thinking this really isn't any of my business. I know who I would buy from and what is right. That's all I had to say and I will keep my opinions to myself on this thread from here on out.

Randy_ · Dec 8, 2008

cowchaser said:
.....I don't see where anyone owes "US" an explanation for anything. They owe to the 2 that created it.....

Dustin: People "see" things differently which is what makes the world go round so I am happy to hear your point of view and also happy to disagree.

Since this guy approached me/us to purchase his products, so I feel he does owe me/us an explanation as to why I/we should buy from him rather than boycott his products.

For all we know, he may have a legitimate business deal with Ken and Lou to sell their designs and give them a commission on his sales.

OTOH, maybe this guy has been making these designs in South Africa for the past ten years and they were borrowed from him?

Just think we need a little more information before we can make a decision.

Glenn McCullough · Dec 8, 2008

I know for $4.00 difference in price, there s a world of difference in the look of the quality. I'll stay with Kens line of goods.

babyblues · Dec 8, 2008

I agree with Dustin. I think that dragging this out in front of the whole forum shows very poor tact. Whether I agree with you or not and whether we share the same "opinion" or not, is irrelevant. We can support Ken and Lou by buying their products, not by being a tattletail. If those two want to pursue the issue with this guy, than leave it to them to do that. There's no need and I hope there isn't any interest in a witch hunt on this forum. If you have a concern about it, ask the two of them.

That being said, I know you have your reasons and are prepared to refute my post, but I'm not really interested in all that, to tell you the truth. You've made several posts like this, that I've seen, and while I realize I can just ignore it and choose not to read it, it shows little to no regard for discretion on your part and it's my "opinion" that this sort of thing looks like someone trying to stir up trouble over something that really is none of their business. Not to mention that I'm sure Ken and Lou can take care of themselves. Sorry to be harsh, but this isn't the first time you've made a post like this.

marcruby · Dec 8, 2008

Since I've seen at least one remark that the Lazerlines puzzle design predates Lou's I think it's out of place to talk about who might be copying who for what profit. And if the designs happen to be in public domain, it's premature to start in on what is or isn't ethical.

It's certainly fair for you to ask for some explanation from all the parties involved, but I think it's best to just leave it at that until we know what is going on. Even then, the only threat we really have is to continue to get our kits from Ken. And we've already done that, neh?

Marc

Chasper · Dec 8, 2008

I'm not a lawyer, but over the years I've spent a lot of time and money with lawyers attempting to stop copiers of intellectual art properties that I've been involved with purchasing/creating and publishing. Usually my efforts have resulted in significant legal bills and little success. The problem with copyright protection for art is that a small number of insignificant changes are usually enough to satisify the legal definition of a new design. In the case of the puzzle pens for instance, a few changes in the wood selection or shapes of individual pieces would likely be change enough to be seen as a new design.

There is always "derivative" design protection, as in "he used my original design as inspiration" for his design. That would be enough to establish and enforce intellectual property rights claims if it could be proved. It is ofter used to protect design trademarks. But would anyone want to go to court and try to prove that they didn't have any design influence in coming up with the idea to begin with? They would have to admit that they were influenced by jig saw puzzles and American flags and the copier could claim the same influence.

My point is not that our friends here in this forum don't have a claim on these designs. They are creative, hard working folks who have developed truely original work that they have shared at a reasonable price. They have earned our respect and money and they deserve our continued business. However, they may have a difficult time stopping this copier. I'd like to see him banashed, but I wouldn't advise that either, I wouldn't want to be a accused of depriving someone of the opportunity to earn an income. I see the best option as ignoring the interloper and continuing to do business with people we know and trust.

Daniel · Dec 8, 2008

I think that I will wait to hear if anything comes from Ken or Lou. I would also expect to have heard something from one of them if this whole thing was legit. If it is not I would also expect not to. sort of throwing the poor guy to the lions that way lol.
Bottom line my business would go to Lou or Ken even if the whole thing is legit.

This does bring up that old issue of just how to protect your creative creations. That one is as old as turning is though.

Tuba707 · Dec 8, 2008

From the Lazerlinez website:
"Puzzle Inlay Kits are made from a variety of woods. Maple , American Walnut , Yellow Wood, Purple hard."

Obviously it wasn't copied as Ken and Lou don't use "Purple hard" in theirs

wolftat · Dec 8, 2008

Maybe we should get a rope and lynch the guy before we find out what is really going on. Has anyone spoken with Lou or Ken to find out what they are feeling about this? If they have a problem with it they are both grown men and can deal with whatever legal and ethical aspects there are, but in the mean time, the rest of us should go about out business and wait to find out how thing are handled. I think that we are overreacting to something that we know too little about yet. Noone is forcing anyone to buy the stuff.

alphageek · Dec 8, 2008

Chasper said:
I see the best option as ignoring the interloper and continuing to do business with people we know and trust.

Yep.. I have to say thats been said a couple of ways, but makes the most sense.

woodtreker · Dec 8, 2008

Sad to say but may times in the artistic world copies are very common... Even the great masters have their works, ideas, concepts etc, used and reused...

I had thought that the purpose of the forum was to share works, ideas, concepts etc. If you copy them, improve them, sell them... who I am to say that is wrong... Some ideas are shared to be copied, improved, and I would hope to think sold so we can continue our hobby or in some case livelihood... Yu can have any of my stuff... But what can I contribute??? It is yet to be seen...

Do I like it??? Absolutely NO WAY!!! So what to do... Make up your own minds as what is best... I think in woodworking especially it would almost be impossible to be "original" but we should at least be considerate...

Just this month I came up with what I thought was a great marketing idea for a pen... only to discover that another pen turner in my own town was already doing it... I choose to abandon that idea...

Yet I noticed he had a special hornet nest design which he said he had developed... Hmmm... I think I have seen it before...

I remember what was said once... It really applies to woodworking....
"Copying from one source is plagarism... Copying from several sources is research!"

jeff · Dec 8, 2008

I think it best to discontinue this discussion until and unless Lou, Ken, and the lazerline fellow weigh in. This pile-on behavior gives us a bad reputation and drives people (even just observers) away. I fully understand all the arguments, but let's give it a rest until more information arrives.

Constant Laubscher · Dec 8, 2008

Thank you for the nice welcome and warm messages.

I guess I am the guy every one wants to see disappear from the face of the earth!:thunder::doctor:
I have been making pen kits for a while +/- three years some of them worked great others did not. I made a 100 piece puzzle pen which was quite a task to put together and I sold a lot. I then started with other custom kits but did not sell them on the Internet just to the companies who ordered the custom designs. I made a agreement with them not to sell them to the public until a year has passed and therefore many more new kits will be available in the next couple of weeks.
So I have has no ethical issues making the puzzle inlay kit.

I am totally aware that the flag inlay kit was design by Ken. When I saw a friend putting one together more than two years ago. I new I could better the cutting design and therefore make assembly a breeze.
Since then Ken has change the cutting design and not using flat stock for the stars and stripes.

I have also spoken to Ken this Morning to clear this matter with him an Lou ( Lou did not answer his Phone so I left message)
To make a long story short I guess the person who post the first picture or article about a design is the one who cam up with the idea and the other person would be seen as the one who steal and rip other people off.
I shall put references and links om my website to give credit to the people who I know deserves the credit for creating & designing Items that I might sell on my website. So anyone who thinks he deserves recognition please send me an Email and we can look into the matter.

Regarding the logo pens, the Starbucks pen was made for a Starbucks manager and the photo only serves as a sample. The other logo pens like Flacons, Gators ... were made for a promotional company as samples but they ended up wanting 2 - 5 dollar pens with the same looks which was not possible.

I apologize to those who are offended and I hope this clears up some of your concerns.

Kind regards

Constant Laubscher
7708912301
PS - I am just human and do make mistakes, not like most of you who don't make mistakes.

Mudder · Dec 8, 2008

wolftat said:
Maybe we should get a rope and lynch the guy before we find out what is really going on. Has anyone spoken with Lou or Ken to find out what they are feeling about this? If they have a problem with it they are both grown men and can deal with whatever legal and ethical aspects there are, but in the mean time, the rest of us should go about out business and wait to find out how thing are handled. I think that we are overreacting to something that we know too little about yet. Noone is forcing anyone to buy the stuff.

Well Said Neil, I agree 100%

Chasper · Dec 8, 2008

"PS - I am just human and do make mistakes, not like most of you who don't make mistakes."

Ovbiously I'm capable of making mistakes, as I just demonstrated. I apologize for refering to you as a copier and an interloper. I've once again been hasty and over-zealous in my efforts to protect intelluctual property rights. It appears you have as much claim as anyone to "first usage," on the puzzle pen and regardless of who did it first, it would appear to be the type of thing that can not be protected anyway. I recognize that you and anyone else has a right to pursue your business interests on the basis of the quality of your quality, performance and price. Good luck.

GouletPens · Dec 8, 2008

I'm not a lawyer so take what I say with that understanding. I have gone through the licensing process for Virginia Tech, and let me tell you it is a royal pain, extremely expensive, and takes forever. Basically, you can't use anything that even resembles a logo, name, or affiliation for any trademarked item be it a university, sports team, or company without explicit permission from the organization and legal protection from them. About the only way you really can get around any kind of licensing is by using colors, since you can't legally trademark just colors. However, if you make a maroon and orange pen (Virginia Tech colors), and advertise it in any way to be affiliated with the university without licensure, you're open to legal action. Not only that, but as a licensed member, I am obligated to report you to the university so they can come after you. Just don't do it!

Look, if you're trying to make money off of a company or university or sports team, you're a leech unless you're paying them their cut. Just like you wouldn't want someone making a pen and selling it under your name without your permission, don't do it to someone else. "Man up" and become licensed, otherwise stop faking your products.

Now, that being said, if you are making a design or something for your pens or any type of product and it is not trademarked or copyrighted, then anyone can steal it from you and there isn't squat you can do about it. That's why the legal protection of a trademark is there, but unless you file one, you have no protection. In fact, you could go and take someone else's design, patent or trademark it yourself, and you would have the legal protection to shut the other person down.

The fact is that unless Ken has patented his laser kits designs, then anyone can go steal it and no one can do squat about it. I don't condone this activity at all, and I think that stealing others' ideas is pretty low, but hell we all do it. Anytime that you see a neat pen design or something on the forum, you make it yourself and sell it, you're "stealing" in the ethical sense of the word (not legally though, unless it's patented). So though everyone here has the right to get upset, it's all for naught unless Ken patented his kits.

Mudder · Dec 8, 2008

Chasper said:
I see the best option as ignoring the interloper and continuing to do business with people we know and trust.

Consider this please........

If we don't give this guy a chance, how will we know if he is trustworthy?

Competition drives creativity.

DocStram · Dec 8, 2008

jeff said:
I think it best to discontinue this discussion until and unless Lou, Ken, and the lazerline fellow weigh in. This pile-on behavior gives us a bad reputation and drives people (even just observers) away. I fully understand all the arguments, but let's give it a rest until more information arrives.

Amen. Let's follow Jeff's wishes, and give it a rest until we hear from Lou and Ken.

btboone · Dec 8, 2008

Before people go trying to figure out if it was Ken's or Lou's idea to do the puzzle pen, it might be a good idea to check the archives. I did them well before either. They were exactly the same size and width pieces. I did trials with individual cut pieces and with resin and wood hybrids and did a writeup on it. If anyone will be receiving royalty payments, I'll have to be involved in that.

Gagler · Dec 8, 2008

Constant Laubscher said:
PS - I am just human and do make mistakes, not like most of you who don't make mistakes.

Well said.

Taking a look at the website, these are nice looking pens:

http://www.lazerlinez.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IMG2439

http://www.lazerlinez.com/proddetail.asp?prod=img053

ed4copies · Dec 8, 2008

DocStram said:
Amen. Let's follow Jeff's wishes, and give it a rest until we hear from Lou and Ken.

Since this topic exists and since Mr. Laubscher has enlightened us to his thinking, I see no reason why we cannot discuss.

Lou and Ken are perfectly capable of contacting Mr. Laubscher and, if it were me, I would contact him privately!! This has the earmarks of a rather STRONG difference of opinion. When and IF they wish to "take it public", they are always invited to participate, as should Mr. Laubscher.

While I don't know Ken that well, I am confident that Lou would be among the first to encourage us to listen to BOTH sides of the discussion.

Hopefully, Mr. Laubscher will answer questions that may arise in this thread and we can get to know HIM, better.

Just my opinion. Remember, if Jeff firmly believes this discussion should end, he has the "keys" to lock it. He encouraged us to wait, now we have waited and comments have been received,

Next comes, debate! Keep it to the facts, not "name calling" and it should make for good debate.

alphageek · Dec 8, 2008

ed4copies said:
Hopefully, Mr. Laubscher will answer questions that may arise in this thread and we can get to know HIM, better.

I think this is a VERY good point... Many of us are very loyal to others (including Ken and Lou) not only because of the products they sell, but because of other things they do. (Like Kens generous giveaways to local IAP chapters).

If Mr. Laubscher wants to sell his products to this group, it would be good for him to continue to engage the group and introduce himself. I think he wouldn't have had as strong a negative reaction if he would open with some more introductions, rather than just an ad. And like anything else, this is MY opinion and can be listened to or ignored as such.

marcruby · Dec 8, 2008

I keep getting the feeling that we're taking this more seriously than the actual participants...

>

Maarc

jttheclockman · Dec 8, 2008

You know what is funny about all this is when I made the original post I was unhappy someone thought of my design for the casino pen before I could make one. Of course his is more accurate because he is using a laser. I was going to scrollsaw mine. Then I noticed the other pens and here we are but i am still unhappy. I guess I will have to work faster and now this guy says more kits are coming I could just imagine what other ideas I have that are going to used. Oh well I seee this alot in the scrollsawing world too. There have been some real good designers that have taken alot of flack and have destroyed their business. The copyright laws are written so only a lawyer can understand them and then again they have grey areas.

Would like to hear from Ken and Lou.

Constant Laubscher · Dec 8, 2008

I have removed the classified. All the negativity is not good for the IAP and therefore I shall also end my membership with IAP as of today.
I think this is a great forum and I hope everyone who responded so negatively would be glad to hear this and I wish you all good luck.

Russianwolf · Dec 8, 2008

jttheclockman said:
You know what is funny about all this is when I made the original post I was unhappy someone thought of my design for the casino pen before I could make one. Of course his is more accurate because he is using a laser. I was going to scrollsaw mine. Then I noticed the other pens and here we are but i am still unhappy. I guess I will have to work faster and now this guy says more kits are coming I could just imagine what other ideas I have that are going to used. Oh well I seee this alot in the scrollsawing world too. There have been some real good designers that have taken alot of flack and have destroyed their business. The copyright laws are written so only a lawyer can understand them and then again they have grey areas.

Would like to hear from Ken and Lou.

I went back looking as some pens from ages gone by a while back and found this one too.

Wish Bruce had kept going on it.

DocStram · Dec 8, 2008

ed4copies said:
Since this topic exists and since Mr. Laubscher has enlightened us to his thinking, I see no reason why we cannot discuss.

Lou and Ken are perfectly capable of contacting Mr. Laubscher and, if it were me, I would contact him privately!! This has the earmarks of a rather STRONG difference of opinion. When and IF they wish to "take it public", they are always invited to participate, as should Mr. Laubscher.

While I don't know Ken that well, I am confident that Lou would be among the first to encourage us to listen to BOTH sides of the discussion.

Hopefully, Mr. Laubscher will answer questions that may arise in this thread and we can get to know HIM, better.

Just my opinion. Remember, if Jeff firmly believes this discussion should end, he has the "keys" to lock it. He encouraged us to wait, now we have waited and comments have been received,

Next comes, debate! Keep it to the facts, not "name calling" and it should make for good debate.

My point is ...... that before discussion begins, one must have the facts. I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable discussing any of this until I either hear from Ken, Lou, or anybody else who may have been involved in the design of the kits in question.

maxwell_smart007 · Dec 8, 2008

I remember that there was a very public discussion asking for Victor's head (Landfill Lumber) before he felt comfortable enough to post his side of the story...Now Victor has become a very valuable member of the forum....

Unforutnately, this lynch mob mentality that we seem to adopt from time to time can only serve but to drive people away. This thread is just the latest example of this...

There are some things that need to be public, and some discussions that deserve to take place in private. In this instance, Lou, Ken, and Laubscher are the primary parties...and two thirds of them are not speaking up...not much else to be done until and unless another of them comes forward...

And I'm not certain it's our business anyway. If Lou or Ken feels wronged by a new design, then he or she should say so. If not, it's really none of our affair to presume. I recalll the sayings: There's nothing new under the sun... and... what came first - the chicken or the egg? Unless the first chicken comes forward with proof, we're just guessing.

Looks like its a moot point anyway, as we've driven away the concerned party....

Andrew

DocStram · Dec 8, 2008

Constant Laubscher said:
I have removed the classified. All the negativity is not good for the IAP and therefore I shall also end my membership with IAP as of today.
I think this is a great forum and I hope everyone who responded so negatively would be glad to hear this and I wish you all good luck.

It's Constant Laubscher's choice as to whether to stay or not. I think it would have been good for all of us to have let the process play out to a conclusion. There are questions that will remain unanswered.

It would have helped Constant Laubscher's credibility a whole lot if he had first joined IAP and made a dozen or so posts before immediately wanting to market his blanks.

Life goes on ..... and lessons are learned by all of us ... not just Constant Laubscher ... but also for those of us who are too quick on draw.

GouletPens · Dec 8, 2008

DocStram said:
It would have helped Constant Laubscher's credibility a whole lot if he had first joined IAP and made a dozen or so posts before immediately wanting to market his blanks.

quote]
Keep in mind here guys, that when someone joins for the first time, they don't know the etiquite like the "veterans" of the forum. As someone who joined not all that long ago, I can attest to this fact. I'm still learning the ropes, but I had my share of flak the first couple of weeks I was here. Maybe it's been a while since some of you remember what it was like to join, but when everyone goes on a tyrade it comes across as quite unfavorable for a new member. They look at it and say "well if they're not even going to give me a shot, then heck with it". I'm a bit more stubborn so I stuck around, but I had several people PM me my first couple of weeks here because they were "concerned" about how I was being treated. I know it's not intentional, so just double-check what you're typing and think how it comes across to the one on the other side.

That's my 3 cents (2 cents price adjusted for inflation).

NewLondon88 · Dec 8, 2008

maxwell_smart007 said:
, I recalll the sayings: There's nothing new under the sun... and... what came first - the chicken or the egg? Unless the first chicken comes forward with proof, we're just guessing.

Um .. you mean the first egg, right? :biggrin:

ed4copies · Dec 8, 2008

I have taken it upon myself to ask Mr. Laubscher to reconsider (in an e-mail).

I believe he has agreed to stay as a member. I encourage him to tell us more about himself (as I would encourage ANY member) and to focus his selling to the products that are NOT controversial.

I hope we can welcome him.

Lest there be any doubt, Lou and Ken remain my good friends. But the "poker" pen and custom boxes cause me no moral dilemmas.

YOU ARE WELCOME TO DISAGREE WITH ME!!!
(As I have said before, my friends would be very boring if they just said YES every time I speak! The "No" answers spark the conversation!!!

Mudder · Dec 8, 2008

It's over it's done, the end has begun.
If you listen to FOOLS, the MOB rules.

ed4copies · Dec 8, 2008

Mudder said:
It's over it's done, the end has begun.
If you listen to FOOLS, the MOB rules.

Sorry, Scott --- here's my alternative

"If you don't like the end of the movie, get the script and re-write it!!!"

CaptG · Dec 8, 2008

Mr. Laubscher, how about an introduction on the "introduction forum" so we can properly welcome you to the IAP.

Gary Max · Dec 8, 2008

Personally I hope Mr. Laubscher stays around----I have been looking for a new engraver and with him being in Atlanta the turn around will be fast.
From what I see of his web site he does great work. I would rather let that speak for him.
I also sent him a email asking him to stay here at IAP.

PR_Princess · Dec 8, 2008

If Lou or Ken feels wronged....... then he or she should say so.

Andrew

Ahmmm Andrew!!!... Do you know something??? Which one is which???? Inquiring minds you know!!

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

For my two cents on the kits, I will stick to the original. Thank you very much.

Mudder · Dec 8, 2008

ed4copies said:
Sorry, Scott --- here's my alternative

"If you don't like the end of the movie, get the script and re-write it!!!"

I've got something better.

Although nobody can go back and make a brand new start,
Anybody can start from now and make a brand new end.

THarvey · Dec 8, 2008

Guys,

I am offended by many of the comments here.

If there is a discussion, debate or argument to be held over the "intellectual property" it belongs between Mr. Laubsher, Ken and Lou (or whoever feel they own the property in question).

The rest of us have no right to argue ownership nor publicly call out another member.

I looked at the website. There are some nice pens there.

I hope Mr. Laubsher will reconsider. However, after the warm welcome IAP has given him, we cannot blame him if he doesn't come back.

Folks, IAP has a wonderful reputation. Let's please excercise some forethought and judgement before giving ourselves a black eye.

Are Ken and Lou Being Ripped Off??

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