Lost Wax Casting Clips and CBs - ACTIVITY THREAD

[BRobbins629]

Welcome to the Lost Wax Casting Activity!! I hope this will be an enjoyable and learning experience for all who participate and even for those who just want to look. A couple of early thoughts first.

1) If you haven't read the "gauge interest" thread, please do so. I think it explains what I am trying to do.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70781

2) This is in the category of advanced pen making, but if you can make a pen you should be able to do this. You can make it as simple or as complicated as you wish.

3) Due to the apparent interest, I am going to limit the number of pieces I will have cast for you to 2 maximum per person. If anyone or a small group wants to dive in head first with many pieces, you can go straight to the caster of your choice. I use Cranston Casting in Rhode Island.

4) This will not be a full fledged tutorial but should be enough to get you started. Nor is it meant to describe the whole lost wax casting process. There are plenty of books, articles, and videos out there if you are interested. Please ask questions, share experiences etc. I'm sure I will leave out something.

5) Spend a little time thinking of a design. You can even make a pen with the wax model piece to see if it's going to work. Too thin? Too thick? Make another.

Now let's get started!! Since this is a little long with a bunch of pictures, I am attaching a pdf file with the information. If this doesn't work for you, let me know and I will try to come up with a solution.

 

[ed4copies]

Bruce,

Would I be correct in assuming that the process of making a clip is more complicated, so if we embark on this path and succeed, the centerband should be relatively easier?


In other words: So, if I do the clip, I should be able to make a centerband, where the opposite may not be true?

 

[BRobbins629]

Yes - the CB will be easier

Bruce,

Would I be correct in assuming that the process of making a clip is more complicated, so if we embark on this path and succeed, the centerband should be relatively easier?


In other words: So, if I do the clip, I should be able to make a centerband, where the opposite may not be true?

 

[skiprat]

I've got a probably stupid question......

I hope I'm not the only one that is having a hard time understanding that WAX can be turned, drilled etc, let alone hard enough to be held in a chuck whilst doing so. I see that the wax comes in different hardnesses. For the ham-fisted of us, could we get the hardest wax available to make all the parts?

Next question....is it possible for metal parts to be embedded in the wax so that once cast, the metal remains embedded in the silver?
I'm thinking of tagged steel rings instead of having the 'cast washer' clip arrangement.


....oh....and Bruce,.....one last thing.............








Thanks for doing this!!!!:biggrin:

 

[BRobbins629]

I have already received one question by pm which is a good one so I though I would rephrase it here. Please post your questions rather than pm.

The question was "Should the wax model be in the positive or negative?"

Answer - work in the positive. The wax model will be encased in a plaster like material called investment. Then the wax is "lost" or melted away leaving a cavity. Silver is poured in to make an exact duplicate.

 

[BRobbins629]

Jewelers wax for machining is formulated to be a little harder than most wax you are used to using. So if you want to machine, get the hardest wax. It will drill, be held in chucks, can be turned between centers etc. If you want to bend it, get the soft stuff.

As for embedding metal, the molds are heated to about 1500 degrees F Sorry but you will have to convert. I know some cast jewels in place. Bottom line - I don' know

I've got probably stupid question......

I hope I'm not the only one that is having a hard time understanding that WAX can be turned, drilled etc, let alone hard enough to be held in a chuck whilst doing so. I see that the wax comes in different hardnesses. For the ham-fisted of us, could we get the hardest wax available to make all the parts?

Next question....is it possible for metal parts to be embedded in the wax so that once cast, the metal remains embedded in the silver?
I'm thinking of tagged steel rings instead of having the 'cast washer' clip arrangement.


....oh....and Bruce,.....one last thing.............








Thanks for doing this!!!!:biggrin:

 

[skiprat]

As for embedding metal, the molds are heated to about 1500 degrees F Sorry but you will have to convert.

I wish you hadn't said that, now I'm gonna have to try:tongue:
Mmmmm 1500 F huh? That's around 810 C. You don't want to touch that or drop it in your lap!!!

The melting point of 316 stainless is around 1400 C ( I think ) so 'theoretically' it 'should' be ok when the molten silver is poured over it.

If I burn myself, I gonna blame you!!:biggrin:

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Something tells me that Steven already has an idea to beat the band.

 

[mredburn]

To start you guys off, I have pieces of wax that are 3/4 x3/4 by 2 1/2. that will allow you to turn a center band and make at least one clip. Depending on your designs. Each piece will be $1.00 plus shipping. I would not bother with Priority unless you get enough to make it the cheaper option. This is the Green File a Wax. It is the FIrmest of their waxes. WHen talking Hard or soft in carving waxes your really talking flexibility of th Wax. Green doesnt bend or flex it breaks, Purple flexes slightly and blue flexes the most. These waxes can be drilled carved machined.

You can use any wax for model making, Pariffin, bees wax. (make that except ear wax) however the softer waxes wont transport well and are easily deformed from handleing. They can easily get bent out of shape.:biggrin:

pm me if you would like a piece or two

Mike

 

[Glenn McCullough]

laser bands

Bruce,
Can the wax be laser engraved, say with my logo and/or name and if so, what kind of wax would be suitable? Would there be an engraver who might like to try this?

 

[mredburn]

Here are pictures of the wax for size reference. I do have spools of wire wax I can nip off a couple of inches if you need it for your design. I suggest you design your pieces first. If you need other shapes Pm me and let me know what you need. I have very little round stock because I turn it round myself. The round solid and hollow tubes are expesive and there ends up bieng a lot of waste. Each piece weighs less than an ounce with the mailer. Figure $1.25 to $2.00 for mailing cost. for the first piece up to 5 pieces. I will need you zip code. Paypal or checks are fine.

There are no stupid questions
Mike

 

[GoodTurns]

Bruce,
thanks for doing this, I have always admired your work and been amazed at the results, I appreciate seeing some of the process. I would think that this will work for finials as well, yes? I am looking to put my logo on the caps.

Something tells me that Steven already has an idea to beat the band.

beat the band, beat the clip, beat the finial, beat the whole dang pen.....

 

[ericw95]

Will the mold be returned to us or will the company casting the pieces keep them with our name? I am thinking if we hit it out of the park with one piece and want to have additional pieces cast.

 

[mredburn]

Eric, The casting company wont make a mold of your piece unless requested to. THe cast piece will have to be finished prior to molding. The casting company will simply put your wax into their processes and cast it in metal. that piece willl be returned to you for final finishing. Some coampanies will do final finish and mold services for a price.

 

[mredburn]

TO simplify the wax shipping

1-2 pieces $1.50
3-6 pieces $2.00

That way i dont have to do pennies.

My paypal is sales(at)silverpenparts.com

My address is
Mike Redburn
19640 Burgundy Farms rd
Estero Fl 3928

Wax wire can be added in small amounts without affecting shipping. If it gets to be an issue I will let you know on a case by case basis.

Thanks everbody have FUN

Mike

 

[bitshird]

Man I'm glad Bruce started this, NOW I'll have one more thing to muse up any free time, I cast a clip about 2 years ago, the bad thing is we also sent off all of our scrap silver a while back this morning's market open was 27.28 per OZ. And I guess this will be the excuse I needed to get a Taig Lathe to go with my CNC Mill. Not sure how well my old Jet 920 would like wax, so at least I can blame it all on Bruce..I'm not going to say it was your fault, I'm just going to blame you :biggrin::biggrin:nice thing is it will give me something to do with the 5 or 6 pounds of machineable wax all of the Ferris and Matt wax and all the casting equipment that's been collecting dust for the past 4 years.OH JOY OF JOYS, and I'll get to play with RHINO again woop pee

 

[glycerine]

Will the mold be returned to us or will the company casting the pieces keep them with our name? I am thinking if we hit it out of the park with one piece and want to have additional pieces cast.

If I understand correctly, our molds will be melted in the process of making the piece, so there will be no mold to send back. This is a "one-off" design. I'm not sure how you would go about making duplicates...

 

[BRobbins629]

Don't know about laser, but if you can get you logo in the wax, it will be in the silver. I have seen this done with CNC and by hand, just don't know what a laser would do. One test if worth a thousand opinions. Why not try it and let us know.

Bruce,
Can the wax be laser engraved, say with my logo and/or name and if so, what kind of wax would be suitable? Would there be an engraver who might like to try this?

 

[BRobbins629]

Will the mold be returned to us or will the company casting the pieces keep them with our name? I am thinking if we hit it out of the park with one piece and want to have additional pieces cast.

If I understand correctly, our molds will be melted in the process of making the piece, so there will be no mold to send back. This is a "one-off" design. I'm not sure how you would go about making duplicates...

The plaster mold that will be made from your model is only good for one cast. For multiple copies, a rubber mold can be made from the first cast piece. Wax is then poured into this rubber mold which can be used for multiple copies. Each wax copy is then taken through the same casting process to get the metal part. If you do get a piece that you really like, and want to make multiples, that's another activity

 

[BRobbins629]

TO simplify the wax shipping

1-2 pieces $1.50
3-6 pieces $2.00

That way i dont have to do pennies.

My paypal is sales(at)silverpenparts.com

My address is
Mike Redburn
19640 Burgundy Farms rd
Estero Fl 3928

Wax wire can be added in small amounts without affecting shipping. If it gets to be an issue I will let you know on a case by case basis.

Thanks everbody have FUN

Mike

Thanks for jumping in Mike. This is really generous of you.

 

[BRobbins629]

Bruce,
I would think that this will work for finials as well, yes? I am looking to put my logo on the caps.

Yes - finials and nibs are in play

 

[mredburn]

Waxes went out today for those of you whom have ordered. Included is a pice of red wax wire. THis is your sprue wax please do not use it to make you projects with, you will need it later. Any questions ask here.
Mike

 

[gketell]

Steve,

In my imagination I'm envisioning you putting your stainless clip "base" and then encasing it in wax for the decorative cover. Love the plan. BUT you have to be sure that the stainless is fully supported when the wax burns away. Otherwise the stainless will shift in the mold and you won't get a usable part. So maybe leave the ring undecorated so it gets held in place in the investment. Then have your "inflow" area at the point of the clip.

Just thought I would warn you if you hadn't already thought of it.

GK

As for embedding metal, the molds are heated to about 1500 degrees F Sorry but you will have to convert.

I wish you hadn't said that, now I'm gonna have to try:tongue:
Mmmmm 1500 F huh? That's around 810 C. You don't want to touch that or drop it in your lap!!!

The melting point of 316 stainless is around 1400 C ( I think ) so 'theoretically' it 'should' be ok when the molten silver is poured over it.

If I burn myself, I gonna blame you!!:biggrin:

 

[BRobbins629]

Casting video

Some folks have asked about how to make multiple copies of their pieces. There's a real good video of this process starting with making a rubber mold from a solid object, carving out for the sprues, injecting wax into the mold, covering with plaster, melting the wax and finally filling the mold with molten silver.

See the home page of www.cranstoncasting.com

 

[mredburn]

Ive been asked if its to late to get involved, Never! If you would like to join in and need wax I have more than enough. Dont hesitate to pm me if you do. And if you dont need wax its still not to late to join in.

 

[BRobbins629]

Here's one I did toady. Its a prototype for a roller ball nib. Finished piece weighs about 0.6 gms in wax, so in silver it will be about 6 grams or 1/5 ounce.

 

[Glenn McCullough]

Bruce, di you turn this and if not explainn the process, please.

Here's one I did toady. Its a prototype for a roller ball nib. Finished piece weighs about 0.6 gms in wax, so in silver it will be about 6 grams or 1/5 ounce.

 

[BRobbins629]

Bruce, did you turn this and if not explain the process, please.

For this one, I started with some round stock chucked in the lathe. I first drill a hole about .1" in diameter and about 1" deep and tested the fit of the tip portion of the refill. Then turned about 1" of the piece round to the widest final diameter. Next, turned the angle with a carbide scraper which leaves a pretty nice finish. Next using the scraper again, made the tenon. Since the end of this will have to fit the widest part of the refill which is about .240", I made the tenon about .340 which leaves a .050 wall thickness. If I wanted to make the piece a little lighter, I could have made this a little thinner, but I'll see how it feels when its in silver. Then I parted it off with an Xacto knife.

At this point, the hole in the back is still .1" and too small. Note that roller ball refills have a step before going to the widest dimension. Using incrementally thicker drill bits, by hand, I just reamed out the back to match the profile of the refill.

 

[hebertjo]

Thanks for the explaination Bruce.

How do you account for shrinkage? This seems to be the wildcard for me. If everything fits correctly now will it be too tight once cast? Do you simply ream out the holes post casting? Also, If it is going to be pressed into a tube then the tenon needs to be very precise do you over size it and then turn it down post casting?

Thanks,

 

[BRobbins629]

Thanks for the explaination Bruce.

How do you account for shrinkage? This seems to be the wildcard for me. If everything fits correctly now will it be too tight once cast? Do you simply ream out the holes post casting? Also, If it is going to be pressed into a tube then the tenon needs to be very precise do you over size it and then turn it down post casting?

Thanks,

Good question! Shrinkage is something that's a little hard to predict. Usually its only a couple of %. If the hole gets too small, yes, I can ream it out. For sure, the piece won't get bigger. Its quite common to do some adjusting in fitted pieces after casting. In this case, my tenon will be whatever it comes out, and I will be custom making a section to fit. If it was to be pressed into a tube, the pieces are usually oversized slightly and the tube expands, or it can be trimmed by turning or filing.

If you're looking for a perfect fit as cast or some very precise final dimension, it make take several iterations of casts to get it. As with pens, the first one is usually not perfect, but in this case should be close enough to adjust. When making my own components, I usually make them first, then make the pen to fit.

 

[mredburn]

On a nib I would recomend a slightly loose fit where the refill is concerned. the only snug area should be the hole at the very tip. It can be drilled to final diameter after casting. The insides are hard to reform after casting and you dont have much to grab a hold of to work on the piece. The shoulder for the nib that will fit in the tube should be a very snug fit, before casting. slightly sanded and epoxied into the tube at final assembly. IF you try and press the silver nib into the tube at final assembly you will at the least mar the finish, and possibly compress your interior holes for the refill to fit in . DAMHIKT

Mike

 

[LEAP]

One question. I'm working on a clip. looking at various methods of attaching and right now am waffling between a ring and two posts. Now to make a ring would you make the whole clip ring and all from one piece of way or does makeing two pieces and melting them together work?

 

[hebertjo]

Thanks Bruce and Mike that makes perfect sense!

 

[BRobbins629]

One question. I'm working on a clip. looking at various methods of attaching and right now am waffling between a ring and two posts. Now to make a ring would you make the whole clip ring and all from one piece of way or does makeing two pieces and melting them together work?

With a ring, I've done it several ways. In the past I used to make 2 pieces and solder together after casting. Now I make 2 pieces of wax and melt or CA them together. The CA burns out just fine in the process, but it is a little fragile. I've only lost one so far. I've never done it on one piece from wax, but that would work as well even it if it wastes some wax.

 

[mredburn]

The advantage to making them two parts is that its easier turn the wax ring perfectly round and then attach it to your clip. Making it round on the clip can be challenging. If you make the clip smaller than the diameter of the pen body you can hide it in the pen under the cap.

Mike

 

[Glenn McCullough]

I am so glad you cleared the air on using CA, that was a ? I had and am glad it is an option. Can you use it to ...say make the droplet for the back bottom of the clip on the wax instead of building up wax?

One question. I'm working on a clip. looking at various methods of attaching and right now am waffling between a ring and two posts. Now to make a ring would you make the whole clip ring and all from one piece of way or does makeing two pieces and melting them together work?

With a ring, I've done it several ways. In the past I used to make 2 pieces and solder together after casting. Now I make 2 pieces of wax and melt or CA them together. The CA burns out just fine in the process, but it is a little fragile. I've only lost one so far. I've never done it on one piece from wax, but that would work as well even it if it wastes some wax.

 

[BRobbins629]

I am so glad you cleared the air on using CA, that was a ? I had and am glad it is an option. Can you use it to ...say make the droplet for the back bottom of the clip on the wax instead of building up wax?

I've never done it as a build up, but I think it should work if it sticks. There are many materials other than wax that have been used in this process. I've seen leaves and twigs, gummy bears, and even cotton thread. Some work better than others. The thing to look out for is that you want what ever it is you make the model from to be able to burn out completely and leave no ash. This could leads to voids in the cast. Jeweler's wax is designed to burn out cleanly.

 

[LEAP]

Another clip question. In relation to the clips we get in the kits do you make the material in the clip ring thicker to account for the relative strength of the silver?

 

[BRobbins629]

Another clip question. In relation to the clips we get in the kits do you make the material in the clip ring thicker to account for the relative strength of the silver?

Absolutely the clips need to be thicker, but you can go overboard which I did in my early attempts. I would target in the 0.060 to 0.080 range. Take a look at some of my clips in my album and some mredburn's on his website. Also look at some magazines or on the web at some of the silver clips out there to get a feel for what's typical. Ariel Kullock (google him) makes some as do some others.

 

[mredburn]

I also target the .060 (22g) to .80 (18g) thickness on my clips and washers. Isome times make then thicker and then file them down to final thickness.

Mike