A Penmakers Challenge Stage 2

[ldb2000]

This is Stage 2 of the Penmakers Challenge . On the surface not much has changed from stage 1 but there are a few differences . In this one I have added a new finial which is pressed into the upper tube . A tenon was needed and it had to be sized accurately to be press fit , not glued into the tube and hold the clip tight . You can glue it in place but try to make a press fit first , it's good practice for making tenons .
The other difference is that the centerband is now fitted to a tenon on the upper barrel . This is also optional but advised , the next stage will require a tenon here for strength . There won't be a tube to support the glue joints so the tenon will act as support .
I made this pen from PR but you can use wood or whatever you would like . Again no saws were used to make this pen and this time I MEAN no saws were used ... unless they use a saw to make the liquid resin :biggrin: All cuts were made by using a parting tool on the lathe .

Sorry for getting this one started so late but the kids used up all the batteries so I had to wait until the rechargeable were charged for my camera .

Ok , let's see some pens (done by the rules , I hope)

 

[RAdams]

Nice! The tenons do add some interesting twists! This will be fun to play with!!

 

[skiprat]

I hope you don't mind me adding this Butch, but here's a tip that might be useful to some. There have been some really beautiful pens so far and I'd hate to see someone spoil one.

If you unfortunately need to glue in your finial, then DONT put the glue on the finial tenon. Put a little inside the tube instead. If you put it on the tenon then it will gather up as you press it in an make a mess around your clip. If you use CA, it will probably ruin the plating.:wink:

 

[ldb2000]

Thank you Skip , that's a very good tip . Skiprat is right , since the finial is pressed in after the finish is done and it would be a shame to ruin a nice pen by a simple mistake , always put the glue in the tube instead of the finial and you really shouldn't use CA around any plated parts . The out gassing from the CA can very quickly ruin the plating , if you have to glue in the finial use epoxy instead or if the fit is tight but just needs a little help any color Loctite is the best thing to use .
But I'm sure that none of you will need to glue in the finial .... right?

 

[RAdams]

Question... Did you tenon all three CB pieces? or segment the first two, and tenon just the outer thickest band?

 

[soligen]

I'll certainly go for a press fit, but seeing as I'll be using wood, and wood shrinks if iy dries a little, I would sure feel a lot better on the longevity of the pen with a bit of epoxy in there.

Am I worried about nothing here? I'll go for the press fit, then disassemble and epoxy it back in.

 

[DurocShark]

No, you're not being over cautious. All materials shrink and expand. Wood does it enough to be worrisome.

 

[ldb2000]

Ron , yes all three are pieces are on a tenon . The tenon is taking the place of a tube in the next build . Segmenting is not a good idea if there is nothing to support it . remember that wall thickness is quite thin and a butt joint segment will have very little glue area so will break without support .
Dennis , you are quite right . If you are using acrylic then gluing the finial in is not needed , but if you are using wood there will be a certain amount of movement and glue will avoid the finial coming loose in the future . You could also use thin CA to stabilize the wood so movement would be about the same as acrylic and glue won't be needed .
Nice catch , I was wondering if someone would catch that one . This is part of designing from scratch . You must try to think of anything that can go wrong and design to avoid the problems . There are other things to design around on this build . Let's see if anyone catches them .

 

[Craftdiggity]

Cool pen, Butch. I like the idea of the finial on top, but what is the point of the press fit, other than the skill of getting it to just the right size? Wouldn't the brass tube cut into the material, especially if it's wood?

I make a lot of friction fit items, but it's always wood to wood joints, so I'm not worried about getting the size right, but I wouldn't trust a wood press fit to stay forever. Acrylic either for that matter. I'll press mine together, but I think I'll put a drizzop of 'poxy up in.

 

[DurocShark]

Oh, I forgot to say...


@#$%#^#$%&*&^#$&#%$&^@#$ tennons!!!!!


:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[RAdams]

Cool, that is how i am doing it. I figured that sounded the most difficult, so that is prolly what you did. The last pen had segs... This had to be different!

I have faced another of the design challenges already. deciding how far to inset the bottom tube. It hasnt become a problem yet, and i dont need any hints, but i can see it being the next challenge for me i think.

 

[ldb2000]

The CB is still segmented but they are segmented over the tenon . On this build the upper tube is there so the tenon really serves no purpose other then practice for the next build when there wont be a tube for support .

 

[soligen]

You could also use thin CA to stabilize the wood so movement would be about the same as acrylic and glue won't be needed .

When it comes to anything Structural, I fall into the "Overkill" camp, so I vote for both :biggrin:.

I was going to thin CA the tennon anyway, but for a different reason - I dont have the ideal equipment to do this, so I figure some thin CA will mitigate damage to the tenon when I put it into my drill chuck.

Another gotcha comes to mind with wood, and that is damaging the finial when pressing it in.

 

[ldb2000]

Chris , if you feel more secure with a bit of glue by all means use it . I did take certain steps to make sure that the finial stays in place without glue . If you use wood the tube will compress the tenon and allow it to loosen over time but if you harden the wood tenon with some thin CA it will not allow the fibers to compress and if you design it right it will stay without glue . The clip will put a strain on the finial and a normal size tenon would eventually work it's way loose . The design takes this into account .
Again when you are designing your pens look for design flaws that might be a problem in the future , try to come up with solutions to those problems before they happen . If the designers who made the Sierra had looked at their designs better the design flaw would have been avoided . Remember , even with the best designs sometimes there are compromises that must be made so make sure to try and avoid them if you can or at least minimize them as much as you can .

 

[ldb2000]

Yes Dennis , there is nothing wrong with overkill if you want your pen to last a lifetime . Also yes about damaging the finial when pressing it in . I broke the first one I made when I pressed it in using my normal hand clamp because it wasn't aligned right , I used my lathe tailstock to press in the one that's on there .
By the way , my finial was made on a mandrel so I didn't have to worry about damaging it with the jaws of a chuck

 

[hewunch]

Another tip I have found in working with glue and tenons. If you part a small channel in the middle of the tenon the glue seems to not flow out as bad on to the other parts (where you don't want it)

 

[ldb2000]

Good tip Hans . You could also make a few flutes in the length of the tenon to allow the glue to flow through as you are pressing it in but it is best to put the glue in the tube instead of on the tenon .

 

[PenMan1]

On the CB, Is it cheating to turn a regular tenon just as with a regular european, then part off the CB segments larger than the tenon and sand to final diminsion with the rest of the upper tube? Also, you didn't mention drill press. Is a DP allowed or is it the same as the first challenge?

 

[DurocShark]

Man, slicing wood thin on the lathe is WAY easier than with alabaster! I wish there was some use for 3/4" x 3/4" veneer!

 

[ldb2000]

I turned a 5/16" tenon on the end of the tube then I drilled a 5/16" hole in the tenon stock and parted off the slices , put glue on the tenon and slid the slices on then clamped it all up until dry . Then I turned the barrel to size and finished .
If you can't drill on the lathe the DP is ok but it will make it harder to get perfectly centered and aligned holes .

 

[ldb2000]

Don , you could always make allot of celtic knots :biggrin:

 

[DurocShark]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[soligen]

No optional stuff

I already had this pen in the works, so it has none of the "Optional" features. By that I mean the CB is not on a tenon.

The finial is a press fit, with epoxy for peace of mind. It is a good enough press fit that I didn't need to leave it clamped.

To get the finial fit, I left it a bit big final sized it with sandpaper by hand. i'm glad I did becasue my drill chuck messed it up. No real option there - I think I dont really have the proper gear to do it right.

The wood is walnut and hickory, and a mystery dark wood slice (cocobolo maybe). There is aluminium foil in each glue joint. You can see it between the dark woods, but I it is not visible against the hickory (even in person).

IMO the CB area is a bit too fat, and the finial is a bit off (perhaps due to the hand fitting. But, its the best finish (CA, no BLO) I've done to date.

I intend to do a second pen with the CB tenon and submit it too, but I had this one started and really wanted to give the finial a go today.

 

[soligen]

Pic didn't attach - trying again

 

[ldb2000]

It looks good to me . I think the finial makes the pen , it gives it a finished look . If Waterman or MB were to make a wood ballpoint it would look like that . Great job .

 

[David Keller]

Here's my second round attempt. This is stabilized Lombardi poplar from AS with alternative ivory bands from EB. The clip finial is actually russian olive because I destroyed the piece of poplar that I had left. I'm anxious to see how others make their finials because it was easily the hardest part for me. I did manage a good fit, but added a touch of thick CA to the tube for longevity.


I want to say I greatly appreciate this exercise. I've never done kit modifications until now. I'm not sure I like the two pens I've created thus far, but the techniques I'm learning will help me in the future.

 

[ldb2000]

I see nothing wrong with it David . As a matter of fact I think it looks great . the only thing I might have done differently would have been to recess the clip since your stock is larger then the clip ring . To recess the clip you would have to drill a slight counter bore the size of your clip ring in the upper blank and using an xacto knife cut a notch in the edge of the blank for the clip to stick out through . Then when you press your finial on there is no gap at the clip .

 

[David Keller]

Thanks, Butch. Do you leave the blank a bit long on the clip end to account for the counter bore or do you just drill away a bit of the tube? Does it really matter either way?

I definitely agree with you that it would look better with a recessed clip.

Another question... Does anybody sell a nib that fits a 7mm tube but has more of a cigar size? I really don't like slim pens. I actually thought about trying to make my own nib for this one, but I decided to wait for the upcoming installments of the challenge.

 

[ldb2000]

Yes I would leave the blank a little longer to account for the recess . As far as I know 7mm nibs are all about the same size . Don't tell anyone I said this but the final build will be a kitless pen where the only kit parts will be the transmission and the clip .

 

[soligen]

The nibs on the euro kits are for 7mm tubes and are a bit thicker. WIth a rounded finial, this challenge basically turns a slimline into a euro.

 

[Mr Vic]

Butch...Is this still based on a slimline kit?

 

[ldb2000]

Yes it is . The next one will be based on a cigar but will be doable with a slimline if you don't have a cigar .

While the Euro is a little bit thicker it's not by very much , it takes a caliper to really see the difference . None of the 7mm nibs are the size of a cigar .

 

[DurocShark]

Whoops. I'm out of slim nibs and clips so was doing this with a euro nib and clip, slim tubes and transmission (like there's a lot of difference... heh)

Cumaru and walnut... First time with that cumaru stuff. Stinks.

 

[soligen]

I'm working on rev 2 of my process for finial turning, and had to make some things to turn between centers more effectively.

I made my own pen turning points for the shopsmith. The only live center I own is the Manrel Saver. I made points for both my chuck, and the mandrel saver. The angles arn't precise. I just eye-balled it.

This works OK, but I see a real 60 degree live center in my future. The mandrel saver does not have very good lateral support in this configuration, so a light touch is needed on the tail end.

These are made from a 1/2 inch rod I had in my shop for years - bought for a project I never did. It had a threaded hole in one end for a 1/4 inch bolt (the rod was actually a spare part for an accessory I dont even own)

I epoxied a 1/4 inch bolt in the the rod and cut off the head - instant shaft for the manrel saver. The drive side was easier as it is a 1/2 inch chuck. Cut a 2.5 to 3 inch length of rod to make these.

To cut the point, I chucked up each one and used my hack saw (one of those little ones) held at my eye-balled 60 degree angle about one inch from the end of the rod. Stopping occasionally to let everthing cool. Took a bit becasue the the blade had to remove all the metal from the face of the waste part of the rod.

Turned out nice. Just wish the manrel saver was more stable.

Pics of the parts, and mounted on my shopsmith.

 

[soligen]

LOL I just went out and looked at 60 degree live centers. looks like I went 60 degrees from the wrong axis, so what I really have is 30 degree points (give or take). Oh well, still works. Maybe one day I'll re-cut the drive side.

 

[RAdams]

you can get 60 degree centers for cheap. Probably cheaper than the man hours needed to make anything close. I got mine from woodcraft, and only paid $20 for it... Just a thought.

 

[RAdams]

well here is my round 2 contribution. Black and Interfine green PR with reddish orange PR CB, Finial, and accent.

I am not very happy with how it came out. the bottom barrel is too small, so the white paint shows through alot mroe making it appear a different color alltogether. The trim piece by the nib was dark on the outside, but light on the inside, so it doesnt really fit in. The finial is a bit too wide, it is not a press fit. The bottom barrel is too small at the CB transition, so it looks funny. The segs are not 100% square. I dont think you can notice with the human eye, but i sure noticed when it was spinning at 3000 R's.


On the plus side, All the steps were done on the lathe, no saws or other power tools. I did tenon the CB... All three parts of it... I also recessed my first clip! What an easy mod to do for a major impact on appearance! The slot is a little bit too wide, but for a first try, I was pretty happy with it.


Overall, It was a fun build, and i learned a TON, but this particular finished product does not excite me at all.

 

[soligen]

Ron, I wasnt very happy with my entry either. I'm going to do a second entry and correct the issues. I turned a new finial last night using a different method - way better. but is has a funny color variation. I think I cut through the CA on the final saning in one area. I may try to re-finish, or just make another.

On the points, given the very limited options for a shopsmith on the drive side, I had to make something, so I did the tail too since once I figured out a way its pretty easy, and only cost me 18 cents. If the tail had worked better the transitions would have been super easy - no need to knock out the tail center. I will definately be getting a live tail center with my next purchase. It's insidious - so much cool stuff to get!

I also made my hack saw blade parting tool - turned a handle for it too. Man - super sweet. Would have made stage 1 MUCH easier.

 

[DurocShark]

I have never done a recessed clip. Too bad I've already refinished the cap, or I'd be all over trying it.

 

[ldb2000]

Ron I think it looks ok , warts and all . I wasn't happy with mine either , the white/silver CB bands lost too much color even with painting and I was going to recess the clip but I forgot when I was turning the barrel so I didn't have enough meat in the body to do it .