Where is innovation?

[ed4copies]

As Jeff is attempting to write TOS that will allow for peace and tranquility on the ol IAP, I'd like to introduce this topic for conversation:

How do we encourage innovation on IAP?

Years ago, new ideas were posted regularly. I believe the small IAP community had a few guys who were competitive with each other (RonMc and Eagle come to mind) and the process drove each to the next higher level of complexity in laminated blanks.

Neither wanted to COPY the other, they both wanted to OUTDO the other. (For those who don't know, this got rather unfriendly, but I met them both and they were both gracious to me!!)

As they competed, newer, more complex patterns emerged. The "art" of pen-making was advanced for the whole forum.

Since then, when a new pen design is presented, the clamor is NOT to try to "one-up", but to demand a tutorial and copy. Typically, innovators are not writers and a tutorial is the furthest thing from their intention. So, they stop presenting new ideas.

Anyone got a constructive idea on how to write the IAP rules to ENCOURAGE innovation and the competition that once made the IAP a "daily read" or you'd miss something???

Thanks!

 

[Gary Max]

Heck every time I log on all I see new is a Super Sellers talking about the newest products they have for sale. Of course they want you to leave IAP and go to thier web site and place a order. This is not directed at any one person or business.
I don't understand how this is good for the site.

 

[Smitty37]

Tough question

As Jeff is attempting to write TOS that will allow for peace and tranquility on the ol IAP, I'd like to introduce this topic for conversation:

How do we encourage innovation on IAP?

Years ago, new ideas were posted regularly. I believe the small IAP community had a few guys who were competitive with each other (RonMc and Eagle come to mind) and the process drove each to the next higher level of complexity in laminated blanks.

Neither wanted to COPY the other, they both wanted to OUTDO the other. (For those who don't know, this got rather unfriendly, but I met them both and they were both gracious to me!!)

As they competed, newer, more complex patterns emerged. The "art" of pen-making was advanced for the whole forum.

Since then, when a new pen design is presented, the clamor is NOT to try to "one-up", but to demand a tutorial and copy. Typically, innovators are not writers and a tutorial is the furthest thing from their intention. So, they stop presenting new ideas.

Anyone got a constructive idea on how to write the IAP rules to ENCOURAGE innovation and the competition that once made the IAP a "daily read" or you'd miss something???

Thanks!

This is a tough question Ed....One basic problem is that so much has been done already by the likes of the fellows you mention above and others. There are some limits to what can be done with a pen barrel. When the site first opened I think few of them had been done, now there are countless things that have been introduced into the barrels.

Here is an idea, whether it is constructive or not remains to be seen. Perhaps a new forum for the purpose of introducing new ideas, it could cover "pen making" or it could be aimed at just the final product. It would gather into one place things we try that work for us and we think they are worthy of sharing.

 

[alphageek]

This is a tough question Ed....One basic problem is that so much has been done already by the likes of the fellows you mention above and others. There are some limits to what can be done with a pen barrel. When the site first opened I think few of them had been done, now there are countless things that have been introduced into the barrels.

Here is an idea, whether it is constructive or not remains to be seen. Perhaps a new forum for the purpose of introducing new ideas, it could cover "pen making" or it could be aimed at just the final product. It would gather into one place things we try that work for us and we think they are worthy of sharing.

I agree that a tough question and I really hope we come up with some good ideas.

Smitty, as for the 2nd paragraph... I'd love to understand what your proposing? I don't get it. I don't understand what would be different than either one of the specialty forums or the generic "penturning" forum that we have now?? Feel free to PM if you don't want to respond here.

 

[jttheclockman]

This has been discussed before and the problem is as mentioned there is just so much one can do with a pen barrel. Some have an advantage because they can work with metals and have the tools to do so and they change the shapes easily. Others like myself look for different things to embedd in a casting and that is how I change my pen looks. We have found some new materials over the years such as stones and casein that is in reach of us price wise. This will probably continue along with items we put under resins. There have been many strides made in this area. Jeff has taken us to a new level with scrolled pen blanks. I think the introduction of the Pen Wizard was a major break through. You don't see much pens shown with the use of this tool though and why is that. I remember when it was first introduced the waiting list was long and it was all the rave.

We are all starving for that new innovation to come along. I am sure it will happen.

 

[Padre]

It is a tough question Ed, but a fantastic one.

I for one see pens on the site and will readily admit that if I see one that really tickles my fancy I will try to do it. That is what happened with my leather pen.

However, I made that pen MY way. I ordered plain vegetable tanned leather from Ebay. I ordered punches. I ordered leather dye.

Then I punched, dyed, punched again, glued, compressed, glued again, trimmed and turned. MY way. It probably looks just like all the other leather pens out there, but to me it was unique because, as Frank sang "I did it my way."

Another way we can support innovation is to not jump into the COPYRIGHT argument every time someone posts something new, or a version of what someone else has done. Give credit where credit it due when you do 'copy' someone, but I think that some become rather reluctant to post new ideas for fear of this whole copyright fiasco that keeps coming up.

 

[Smitty37]

one forum

This is a tough question Ed....One basic problem is that so much has been done already by the likes of the fellows you mention above and others. There are some limits to what can be done with a pen barrel. When the site first opened I think few of them had been done, now there are countless things that have been introduced into the barrels.

Here is an idea, whether it is constructive or not remains to be seen. Perhaps a new forum for the purpose of introducing new ideas, it could cover "pen making" or it could be aimed at just the final product. It would gather into one place things we try that work for us and we think they are worthy of sharing.

I agree that a tough question and I really hope we come up with some good ideas.

Smitty, as for the 2nd paragraph... I'd love to understand what your proposing? I don't get it. I don't understand what would be different than either one of the specialty forums or the generic "penturning" forum that we have now?? Feel free to PM if you don't want to respond here.

I'm just suggesting that new ideas in any one of a half dozen possible places might be getting lost in the smoke and might be more visible if there was one forum where members could keep their eye on what is going on that's new or different.

 

[pianomanpj]

How about something akin to the Nobel prizes? I'll explain myself when you're done laughing... :laugh:

Seriously, though. During the course of a year, if you find what someone has done to be innovative, you can nominate him, her or the team for the "Innovation of the Year Award". Of course, you could not nominate yourself.

Who would be the judges? Well, I have a couple of thoughts there. First, anyone! However, it would require a small, financial contribution like five dollars, or something (more on that later). Personally, I'd be in for five bucks if I could have the opportunity to vote for the best innovation of the year! If that angle isn't feasible, than maybe the Council Members of the Penmakers Guild could select the winner. Of course that wouldn't admit you into the guild, but what a thrill it would be to be selected most innovative by that group!

What's the incentive (read "prizes") for the award winner? Well, if there is cash involved, than half would go to the winner as prize money, and the other half to support the IAP. If the Guild were to be involved, than again, just the distinction of being selected is quite an honor.

Other prizes could include a permanent sticky in the library of the award winner's innovation. Also, a glyph (designed like a medal, or something) that read "Innovator of the Year" next to the winner's avatar so that it would be displayed each time they posted. I'm sure there are other ideas.

Anyways... I'll shut my cake hole and watch to see what shakes out. Please feel free to take ANY or NONE of my ideas and run with them! Just remember Jeff's new TOS when you do!!

 

[1080Wayne]

Ban tutorials !! As Padre described , some of us prefer to do it our way . That is what drives innovation . The segment of the membership which clamours for tutorials on any new idea doesn`t seem to understand that they too would be more valuable members if they adopted that approach .

Roger`s ideas are well worth considering .

 

[ldb2000]

Ban tutorials !! As Padre described , some of us prefer to do it our way . That is what drives innovation . The segment of the membership which clamours for tutorials on any new idea doesn`t seem to understand that they too would be more valuable members if they adopted that approach .

Roger`s ideas are well worth considering .

1+ Flame suit on :beat-up:

 

[MatthewZS]

That is a tough question....but a good one. The first thing that pops to mind is that some of my best new (to me) discoveries have come trying to copy someone else's design so I don't think you CAN expect to have innovation without imitation. But this is good, I'm equating innovation to flattery (roughly). Now I realize however that you're not looking for ideas that are new and whizzbang to me cause just a few weeks ago, TBC was new and whizzbang. You're looking for new and whizzbang to everyone, to the world at large. But still........

I like the awards idea come up with some categories, some sort of formalized system, and some sort of reward that's worth it to attain (ie. a badge we can put on our website/blog/whatever, a permanent stickey, something). Of course in doing this it'd be cool to take into consideration the fact that some of the best innovations in pen making came from knitting, small engine repair and ice sculpture among others so maybe an expansion of the "other things we make" forum somehow..... or a tie in or something.

 

[ldb2000]

The copy cat fever that has swept over the IAP has been one of the biggest reasons for not posting any innovations here . It's one thing to take an idea or inspiration from someone else's work but don't just copy it , take it in a new direction or to a new level .

 

[IPD_Mrs]

We had a member that when asked how to do something he would respond with, "well show me how you would do it, I might like your way better."

This all kind of goes back to my idea (for possibly a bash contest). Have someone do a segment. Do not show the pen but describe it. Now have ten or more people try and duplicate what was described. Have the original designer show show what he described after everyone posts their creation. I bet you very few will look alike and many new ideas and designs would come from the one contest.

 

[BRobbins629]

I think if you took a close look you would find more ideas posted here lately rather than less. Just to mention a few in the post Eagle/Ron days: Toni's polymer clay, kitless of many varieties, feather blanks, casein, aluminum, steampunk, scorpions, cast silver components, more laser designs - both fill-ins and piece parts, Greeneyedcat's ammo pens, Skippy's bolts, herringbone, decals, stanhopes, circuit boards, worthless wood, etc. (Sorry if I missed someone's favorite). I disagree with those that think there is only so much you can to with a few inches. If that were true in every field, artists, writers, and musicians would have become extinct long ago.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Bruce, I agree wholehartedly we've seen new ideas almost weekly, weather it's as amazing as Skip's or Cat's or just a new way to apply a decal.

 

[aggromere]

Yep. And I think one idea can lead to another. Don't know if it happened that way or not. but i saw a lot of post about Toni's PC blanks and then (can't remember who it was though) posted those great pens with golf ball patterns and we all tried to figure out how he skinned a golf ball to make them and lo and behold it was a PC blank he made. Now that's innovation! Roy's gator jaw bone pens is another great new idea. Some of the things I see I can only dream about making. I was so happy to see a post recently from the greeneyedblack cat. Remember all the weird stuff he would make?

As for the tutorials, when I first started turning pens I bought a lathe, some tools, blanks and kits from Rockler (was a store near me) and a book by barry gross. All i could do was turn a pen on a mandrel. Although I'm not anywhere the level of a lot of the members I make a much better pen a completely different way than I started. Had it not been for the forums and the tutorials I would probably would have lost interest in the hobby or still be making rockler kits on a mandrel (not that there is anything wrong with that, I just like to get as good as I can get at something). Maybe tutorials could be limited to technics as opposed to how to make a specific pen, but I like them. That's my two cents worth.

Also, think about the new people. The value they get from the forums is directly related to how much the experienced turners share.

That reminds me, what ever happened to Lee in Japan, remember how willing he as to always help the new people. He was extremely helpful to me when I first joined the IAP. And actually, for the value I have received their wasn't much of an entrance requirement. Just a username and password that literally changed my life. It turned my passing interest in pen making into a permanent hobby, turned my hobby into a business (kinda) and has me having a lot of fun. I think that is a big payback for a user name and password. And even though I have never met another member face to face and only talked to a very few on the phone, I feel like I have made some friends. (man I sound crazy)!!!!

 

[bitshird]

I'm right behind butch on the ban tutorials, Granted there have been some brilliant suggestions and articles on machine modifications, how to do simple segmenting, even some complex segmenting and inlay work, and seeing some of the more active minds doing some incredible work is quite a bit of inspiration. Also it would be a nice thing to have some award on the innovation of the year, but should not the award it's self be recompense enough??

 

[ldb2000]

Before I get the PM hate mails I got the last time I said something like this , I should add that the "Basic tutorials" on turning pens are not what I'm talking about . I am talking about the advanced penmaking techniques like the HB 360 and the more advanced kitless techniques . These are things that are better learned by doing so you gain an understanding of why you are doing what you are doing . A tutorial will show you how to do something but not why you are doing it a certain way . Nothing is really learned by a laundry list , no innovation will ever be made by being told to put flap A into slot B . Innovation is something that can only be created by being creative .

 

[Glenn McCullough]

I have cabinets full of resin savers, silver casting and soldering supplies, snake skins, dyes and stains, pine cones, antler, kit parts, tubes, silver rings as centerbands, etc. All because I saw someone do it and wanted to try it. Most have been tried and I moved on to something else, new. The copiers will still be copying and the innovators will still be creating something new. If a tutorial is done, let it help those who cant originate the idea themselves. Do not stop encourraging them to try new things, some have broken out and created some fine pens. After 7 years making pens, the new ideas have slowed down, but I still dont have time in the day to try all the possibilities that pop into my brain. Eagerly awaiting retirement to find the time.

 

[Jmhoff10500]

I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...

 

[keithkarl2007]

I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...

Can't you see people are fed up with others taking their ideas and promoting them as their own. Well thats the way they feel. Its just as it was already said we don't give credit where it is due. If i had a really unique idea for a pen I'd have it splashed all over this place to see what others could do with it that I couldn't. Why build up all this great knowledge and not share it. Eagle Lord have mercy on him shared all of his ideas freely and his knowledge lives on today. What a waste it would be not to share the knowledge we have with each other but to take it to the grave instead.

 

[ericw95]

Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP. Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities. I planned to participate but life got in the way. Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.

Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate. Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.

 

[keithkarl2007]

Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP. Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities. I planned to participate but life got in the way. Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.

Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate. Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.

Don't get me wrong but that would seem like the more advanced penturners would benefit more. What happens to the newbies who are just starting out? Would that not discourage them from participating in the forum as a whole? I just feel the forum is kinda focused on the more advanced penturners and we have no time for the little guys. Give them a break we all had to start somewhere. Anytime a newbie posts a photo very few of the well known penturners critique their work.

 

[ldb2000]

Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP. Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities. I planned to participate but life got in the way. Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.

Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate. Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.

That was me who ran the challenge . I have no problem with sharing the knowledge but I won't just give it away . I willingly help out and give ideas but don't just give a laundry list of how to do something . If someone wants to put some effort into improving their abilities I will help all I can . By doing it this way we all learned some new techniques and improved the way to do things . We learned WHY things are done a certain way , what the advantages were for using certain techniques and all of this learning was done without a tutorial to copy from .

 

[Brooks803]

I think if you took a close look you would find more ideas posted here lately rather than less. Just to mention a few in the post Eagle/Ron days: Toni's polymer clay, kitless of many varieties, feather blanks, casein, aluminum, steampunk, scorpions, cast silver components, more laser designs - both fill-ins and piece parts, Greeneyedcat's ammo pens, Skippy's bolts, herringbone, decals, stanhopes, circuit boards, worthless wood, etc. (Sorry if I missed someone's favorite). I disagree with those that think there is only so much you can to with a few inches. If that were true in every field, artists, writers, and musicians would have become extinct long ago.

Don't forget those awesome scrolled pens by our master scroller!:biggrin:


Yes I agree that the copycat fad/fear is spreading like wildfire. I don't think the tutorials should be deleted though. I agree with butch that they should be tools to take the next step instead of a somewhat "turn by numbers" approach to pen making. They do give several people, myself included, the SAFE steps to take when trying out a new technique. I have see all the cool and crazy pens that have been shown here and it only makes me want to surpass that point myself. Whether I'm adding to a method or using their technique to totally make something different, the steps written for us are helpful. It's up to US to use the information for what it is, help. When I started casting resin I took the basic idea/intruction of how it's done and the rest has been my own experiments. I've wasted gallons of resin trying to master the swirling effect or a color shade (and several gallons more to waste trying to get pressure casting down pat:redface. Learning by making mistakes has been the MOST important lesson I'll ever learn and I think that's what creates innovation. I feel everyone has a right to their privacy, whether that's how they did something or where they got something it doesn't matter. If they want to share something they will. That's my 10cents for the night (i've been reading the forum etiquette thread while typing this so i think i get off track easily).

 

[ldb2000]

Charge for advanced tutorials to support IAP. Also a few months ago a member, (sorry don't recall screen name) ran a turning "challenge" to expand all of our abilities. I planned to participate but life got in the way. Anyway, I read the posts with interest and plan to complete the challenge some day.

Maybe if we had a series of challenges for turners that they could complete and then send to "someone" to evaluate. Upon successful evaluation, you would earn a designation.

Don't get me wrong but that would seem like the more advanced penturners would benefit more. What happens to the newbies who are just starting out? Would that not discourage them from participating in the forum as a whole? I just feel the forum is kinda focused on the more advanced penturners and we have no time for the little guys. Give them a break we all had to start somewhere. Anytime a newbie posts a photo very few of the well known penturners critique their work.

Actually the last challenge brought several new turners and lurkers into the active group of penmakers and they are now participating members who have since given back to the group some of the things they learned .

 

[Jmhoff10500]

Are we (the banning tutorials issue) talking tutorials as in Library articles, or just concepts that are posting in threads? If it is library article, i think we should not ban them but still leave the option open. If they were to be banned, we would practically ruin the point of a penturning forum that is there for the betterment of the hobby...

I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...

Can't you see people are fed up with others taking their ideas and promoting them as their own. Well thats the way they feel. Its just as it was already said we don't give credit where it is due. If i had a really unique idea for a pen I'd have it splashed all over this place to see what others could do with it that I couldn't. Why build up all this great knowledge and not share it. Eagle Lord have mercy on him shared all of his ideas freely and his knowledge lives on today. What a waste it would be not to share the knowledge we have with each other but to take it to the grave instead.

 

[Brooks803]

[/quote]Actually the last challenge brought several new turners and lurkers into the active group of penmakers and they are now particpating members who have since given back to the group some of the things they learned .[/quote]

I totally agree there and have been anxiously awaiting level 3! I think more people should try to do this maybe in different areas of penmaking. btw, hope your back is doing better Butch!:bye:

 

[skiprat]

I don't think banning tutorials is a good idea. That's like saying get rid of all the libraries and fire all the school teachers.

I've written one or two tutorials and posted a few 'pictorials' and my style is to leave a bit out that needs a little bit of additional thought by the reader.

But on the other hand, I really don't like it when someone virtually demands full and comprehensive instructions for something, without even attempting it first.

Butch's recent threads were utterly fantastic. These weren't designed to show you how to do something but were cleverly created to make you think things out for yourself. Butch, I hope you continue these. They were a lot of fun.:wink:

Of course, I think there are some topics that should never be made into tutorials too. The HB360 was one where I was dead against it being revealed, and that was before I eventually figured it out.

Contrary to what has been written, Eagle actually never 'freely' shared anything. If you figured something out most of the way, then he would certainly take you by the hand the rest of the way. But he wouldn't do your thinking for you. I miss that man!!

 

[keithkarl2007]

Are we (the banning tutorials issue) talking tutorials as in Library articles, or just concepts that are posting in threads? If it is library article, i think we should not ban them but still leave the option open. If they were to be banned, we would practically ruin the point of a penturning forum that is there for the betterment of the hobby...

I Highly Disagree with banning tutorials. 6 days from now marks my one year anniversary on IAP and for those first few months i relied on the tutorials and they are the top reason i am where i am today. If i would have not had the tutorials, i would have not pushed myself and would have fallen into the trap of making one jr gent and thinking thats the best i would do because as a person starting out, i have absolutely no idea how to mount a blanks for a closed end pen, let alone all of the other information in the forum. Also, as some of you have said throughout the forum, for those new members that badger you about how you do stuff, you would now have nowhere to point then and ALL of our ideas/knowledge would have to be transfered through threads or PM's...

Can't you see people are fed up with others taking their ideas and promoting them as their own. Well thats the way they feel. Its just as it was already said we don't give credit where it is due. If i had a really unique idea for a pen I'd have it splashed all over this place to see what others could do with it that I couldn't. Why build up all this great knowledge and not share it. Eagle Lord have mercy on him shared all of his ideas freely and his knowledge lives on today. What a waste it would be not to share the knowledge we have with each other but to take it to the grave instead.

1+ Agreed

 

[ldb2000]

I also agree that "Banning" tutorials is not a good idea but the people who DEMAND a tutorial and then send a nasty PM or email when one is not forthcoming should be at the very least called to task for their actions . Sharing information and techniques has to voluntary or people will stop sharing their knowledge .

 

[Displaced Canadian]

This is an interesting thread. I don't cast, use clay, or own a scroll saw, I just cut up pieces of wood into little pieces of wood and glue them back together. My wife says I'm a quilter . I like the innovator of the year idea. I will copy an idea so I can see how to make it mine and to see what else can do using the same construction technique. Maybe a forum to discuss design ideas?

 

[jfoh]

No one makes you either write or read a tutorial. If you do not want your work copied then do not share information if it is that important to you. I can understand that those who make and sell items for us to use on making pens, like molds, cast blanks. etc... have a right to get annoyed by other who just copy their items and under sell them. But the nature of this site is the exchange of ideas and the natural increasing knowledge base of pen making. You share, read or see and try new things. That is why many come here.

I would agree that hard work and increases in pen making art and science should be advanced and recognized. Maybe the best tutorial gets a prize. How many free things have you gotten with order from suppliers that ended up being more appreciated than the stuff you paid for? Maybe a few out of the blue gifts or posting a picture of the best of kind tutorial, or best of kind pen, or pen making improvement ideal. Guys it is a hobby for most of us not real work to feed our families.

 

[Russianwolf]

If memory serves there is a calculation for innovation, something like:

From Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory

Invention, my dear friends, is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple.

in other words if you aren't working, and failing regularly, you aren't trying to invent/innovate. If you go back and look, half of my pen related posts recently have been reporting that I failed. I failed to accomplish what I was after. But it leads me in a new direction each time. I'll try a different technique, or see something promising and go off on a tangent. You just never know where you'll have your next breakthrough.

I've had long phone discussions with Dawn about ideas that I've had, and we would bounce them around and make suggestions to each other and you never know what will come out of it. I've also had PM discussions with people more knowledgeable than myself in certain areas that I've been playing with just by mentioning offhand a target in a post here. It's happened several times.

And yes, so far my success rate in still 0%, but soon it'll be 1%. Then maybe 2%. And if I ever get it above Butterscotch Ripple, I'll be happy.

 

[robutacion]

Yes, the "original" question is far from having a easy or simple answer, very much like getting the magic recipe for "pleasing everyone...!) just not possible!
However, there are the right and wrong ways to go about pretty much every thing we do in life, being a active and willing member of this forum, is no different.

One of the first things I was told about IAP even before I joined in, was that, this forum provides a lot more information than any other, people here like to share their knowledge and experiences and they do so freely and willingly. People here would be direct and truthful with their opinions and comments when asked and that you would find a diverse and always growing number of vendors within the members that will do anything they can to provide you with the best, unique and most economical products they can, pretty much like a self sufficient group...!

What do I thing that is "poisoning" this forum...???

My first thoughts are about the copyrights issues and similar, they have scared and pushed a lot of people away, some forever.

Don't post something if you don't want people to ask questions and "copy" or try to, what you did. Everyone should accept that from the moment you post something, that will become "public" in all aspects. If you are in the business of selling pens, having pics taken of your "creations" as soon as they are finished and have them posted in this sort of international public domain, is certainly not a good business decision, wouldn't you agree...!!!

Another thing that could be improved is the fact that while some members get too much recognitions, many others no less successful, helpful and deserving, get none...! In fact, the "cycle" or should I say the natural process of "descend" is that the older members "forum duties" (not aged related) get replaced progressively as newer members climb up to the "ranks". Ranks is this case are all the normal doings we all do as members, answer questions, explain things, share experiences and coach someone up to the walking stages BUT, don't be so surprised and annoyed if the student gives to his master, a run for his money...!!! that's just life folks...!:wink:

So the question of "How do we encourage innovation on IAP?" as much to do with the way we all handle the issues and points I've made above.

There has been some very good thoughts/opinions made by other members, here and, I believe, one of the best ways to get the optimal answer to the question is to, listen to what people say and that put it all in a blender to get the true juices...!!!:biggrin:

These are my thoughts, and I stick with them...!

Cheers
George

 

[RAdams]

I believe i mentioned a "inspirator of the year, or Idea of the year" type scenario right after the last birthday bash when it felt like the bash coordinators were trying to make up ways to give away donated prizes. It was quickly shot down. I am sure the thread is archived somewhere, but i am lazy, so i won't be posting a link. I do still think it is a sweet idea. Make it a members only vote, nominees could collect votes, and the winner could get the best gift, or a choice of gifts, or a gift package. It would be a good motivation for alot of people to push the edge more, and post the results.


I have actually talked with several members of IAP that are not "regulars". They may login every day, but rarely post, and never post pictures of their work. I have asked them all the same question after seeing pictures of their work in emails, or website links they gave me personally (Some of wich would rival our top members). They all had the same answer.

DRAMA

It is inevidable that the idea is not original, and no matter how much props are given to the originator, there are almost always posts in the negative tone. "You stole that idea", or "You are gonna get sued" etc. etc. etc.

I also think there should be a comprimise for the tutorials and such. They should be allowed, but only by certain members. Following a tutorial by Skiprat, or Butch is just as they described. An explanation of the basic concept and idea. The rest is trial, error, and maybe a push in the right direction through a helpful PM reply. But at the same time, When i PM someone like Butch, or Skip, I try to keep the ettiquite (sp) in mind. First, I do not ask for a tutorial, I don't want to be told how exactly. I want to be inspired to figure it out. A good tutorial is worth its weight in gold is all i am tryin to say. I don't want your fish... But you can show me how to catch my own!


That and $2 will get you a cup of coffee at the local cafe!

 

[Phunky_2003]

Wouldn't this innovative idea of the year be the same effect as the front page drawing/voting during the birthday bash?

I will give one thought on the tutorials. For example, If Joe Turner posts a pen design. Then along comes Peter Remaker. Peter should have no right to post a tutorial on the design. I have been here for a little over a year and have seen 2 members quite posting due to that reason.

Theres been enough debate on the pros and cons of tutorials, so I wont comment any further.

 

[greenmtnguy]

Ed,
You asked where is innovation. Innovation is hiding from imitation. I wonder what the cost in man hours and dollars is on some of the novel ideas. I pretty well know on a couple of ideas and the concept is the hard part to come up with. Reverse engineering comes to mind and most software expressly prohibit the practice. It is fairly easy to copy, but difficult to innovate. Unless you soar where Eagles fly and then it takes another Eagle to fly with you.

 

[jttheclockman]

Man I have to say today has been a very active day here trying to keep up with a few of these popular topics and some of them are actually running into each other.

There is some disturbing things to me being said here though and that has to do with tutorials. There have been numerous tutorials done about similar subjects and case in point is CA finishes and the bullet pen and casting. No one person has jurisdiction over writing a tutorial about a particular pen or design or method. Even though when all said and done both pens look the same. People get to the final results differently and then you make a choice to use what method suits you. I am thankful for the many bullet pen tutorials and discussions here because that is how I learned. I copied yes I copied and those that frown on copying are kidding themselves because they copied in their life time too. When you are a kid growing up you copy the adults and this is how we learn. Yes we may then add our own touches or find a better way that suits us but to say copying is bad is stupid in my opinion. We all copy. Get over it. This site is based on sharing ideas and I have said this time and time again if you do not want your design copied then please stay away from here and don't show it. Keep it to yourself and be proud.

Tutorials are a great way of teaching. Some people are gifted in that they can convey their thoughts and actions into words that are tutrial worthy. I am not one. But I will try my best to explain something when asked.

Innovation is not a simple thing. It takes a certain kind of mind to be able to think outside the box. As I said in an earlier post I think there are advances being made and have been made and that new invention is right around the corner. Be positive. Keep tutorials and encourage more.

 

[ctubbs]

The tutorial should inspire inovation. I prefer to use the information as a starting point toget by a place that I could not see around the corner, grab a running start and go somewhere else. Unfortionly some find it eaiser to use it as a end all be all. That will occur anywhere people feel incapable to see their own self worth. Please do not ban the tutorial.

The inovator of the year is a grand idea. $5 to vote on the inovation is also a very good and fund raising idea. My $0.02. Add about $5 and a cup of coffee can be yours.

Charles