Help stop the ivory ban.

[Sandra Brady]

Hi Guys! This is my first post on your forum, so forgive me if I fumble a bit. I am a professional scrimshaw artist (37 years), and as such have worked on ivory in everything from pens to pool cues. My reason for getting on here is to inform you all of the ivory ban that the US government is trying to put over on us. Now right away I can hear a lot of you saying "well I don't work on ivory so this doesn't effect me" . But hold on - It's just a start, first ban all legally imported ivory, then on the rosewood and who knows, it's a slippery slope! It might not effect you right now, but maybe you've turned an ivory pen in the past, or collect old pens and happen to have one in your collection. This new law will make you a felon if you try to sell it! So I am passing on this new website that was established to fight the ban, and also to promote sane and responsible ways to actually help the elephants. Please take a few minutes to check it out. Home

 

[John Pratt]

Hmmmm. New member, first post, the post looks a little sketchy......... I think I'll pass on clicking on the link. Who will be the brave one and click on it first?????

 

[tbroye]

This could be a start of a very political discussion. In fact this is purely political and will end up bad. The person just joined for her own agenda

 

[Indiana_Parrothead]

Almost as bad as people who's first post is in the Classified's...

 

[ed4copies]

Although we can guesstimate what COULD happen, it might be a nice gesture to welcome a new member first.

HI Sandra!!!!

A little investigation turned up her website as well as articles about her scrimshaw accomplishments. On her website, she is consistent, talking about the ivory ban, here: Scrimshaw - by Sandra Brady!

If the government was planning to ban all sharp tools, our industry would be threatened and we would react. Eliminating ivory will have a similar effect on scrimshaw.

Although it does seem, to me, that mastadon ivory will be legal and it should be a good medium---I admit to having very limited knowledge on this subject---so a discussion COULD make me better informed!!

Hope that is what we get!!

Ed

 

[OLDMAN5050]

This link is for real about the ivory ban here in the states:Obama Bans U.S. Commercial Trade of Elephant Ivory | Environment News Service

 

[kovalcik]

I will pass on this thread. While I hope I am wrong, IMO it is going to cross the line into a "political post" way too quickly and will not be pretty.

 

[ed4copies]

Oh, by the way, I clicked on her "home" link and my computer still works!!!!

Also I learned a little.

 

[fisher]

link is fine to click on .

 

[skiprat]

I will never understand why some people try to justify using endangered species of Mother Nature's flora or fauna, especially when there are often perfectly good manmade alternatives readily available.
Elephants need their tusks more than we need scrimshawed ivory trinkets.:wink:

Just my perhaps ignorant opinion.....

 

[rblakemore]

If it is legal

I will not use banned or illegal materials; but, there is legal elephant ivory.
There are other forms of ivory also which can be used. And, there are artificial materials which look similar to ivory. If a person wants a political issue, then they should have a political web site. In fact I have two scrimshaw pocket knives (real favorites) that I obtained in Hawaii. Those I believe are legal; pre-ban, whale bone.

 

[Edgar]

I'll try to avoid political commentary, but I think that one of Sandra's main complaints is that the proposed regulations would make it almost impossible for someone owning pre-ban legal ivory to be able to resell it because of the difficulty in proving that fact.

I don't knowingly own or use any banned plant or animal products either, but I do have a few pre-ban bois de rose pen blanks and if the feds decided to impose similar rules for proving that my wood is legal, I would never be able to do so.

 

[low_48]

Her threat of this law leading to the banning of other materials is standard method of using fear to further an agenda. Not a method that attracts me. I have no tolerance for those that want to use any form of ivory in any human trinket or amusement. It repulses me that anyone wants a piece of such a majestic, thinking mammal made into a pen or other desk trinket. Reminds me of my favorite quote by Winston Churchill. "I'm fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals."

 

[workinforwood]

I will never understand why some people try to justify using endangered species of Mother Nature's flora or fauna, especially when there are often perfectly good manmade alternatives readily available.
Elephants need their tusks more than we need scrimshawed ivory trinkets.:wink:

Just my perhaps ignorant opinion.....

Whats your thought on oosik??

Sharpening my chisels....

 

[workinforwood]

Wait wait,,,Steve, i know you will answer question with question...we talking about a married walrus or is he single? Haha!

 

[Quality Pen]

I'll be the first to admit my gross lack of knowledge on the subject. So take that for what it is.

But why is the government stopping ivory trade? Is all/vast majority ivory "bad" as in poached?

The topic makes me think of Bethlehem Olivewood. Yes it is illegal for them to cut the tree down, but that doesn't mean there is no olivewood to use. You just use the clippings and it's essentially a win-win. Trees live and prosper and craftsmen get their materials.

But, how does this relate to ivory? Is it similar? I do not know.

 

[bruce119]

The thing that troubles me about this Ivory band...And I am certainly not in the know BUT I thought I heard it even covers Mastodon & Mammoth...
I am an advid fossil collector and had some Mastodon, tusk it's fossilized rock, but still...
I have a ton of fragments of fossil tusk also...
I used to sell a piece here and there on eBay, then eBay put the band with ANYTHING with tusk or ivory attached to it...


Hopefully when they get the rules in place they will sharpen the edges....????


.

 

[Steve Busey]

Will I ever be able to resell my old piano, or will I have to remove most of the keys first?

 

[ashaw]

I went to my local Piano retailer a couple of years back and asked if they would sell the keyboard of their old pianos that they were throwing out. They said they could not sell them to me because of a law on the books. They would be fined as well as myself. Not sure if this was a Federal law or PA sate law. Pass on the whole deal. They were throwing out about 50 keyboards from old pianos that could not be saved.

 

[ed4copies]

If you have mammoth ivory that came from an animal LESS than 100 years ago, it would be of VERY great value!!! Exceptionally rare.

EVEN the government should be willing to accept that as a FACT.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

There are two possible outcomes that I see:

1) ban all trade in Ivory and have all elephants (and other source animals) driven to extinction by poachers in a decade or two.

2) allow trade in "legally harvested" Ivory, but keep the ban on harvesting new Ivory with the likely result being all elephants would be exterminated by poachers in a couple of years.

I don't see a happy ending here.

Ed

 

[Smitty37]

I will never understand why some people try to justify using endangered species of Mother Nature's flora or fauna, especially when there are often perfectly good manmade alternatives readily available.
Elephants need their tusks more than we need scrimshawed ivory trinkets.:wink:

Just my perhaps ignorant opinion.....

Well why not?

Elephants are not considered endangered the world wide population is around 750,000 animals. They are considered vulnerable due to loss of habitat and they are in much greater danger from that loss than from Ivory hunters or poachers. Maybe the ban on imports has helped stableize the elephant population and maybe it hasn't.

Whether we like it or not Mother Nature is a harsh parent, species come and go including humans (science now believes that Neanderthal was a true human).


There is a great deal of legally obtained Ivory around...Natural deaths, legally hunted animals (I think there is still some of that but not much), Animals recovered from illegal poaching...there is, in my mind, no sound reason to ban imports of that ivory.

 

[ed4copies]

There are two possible outcomes that I see:

1) ban all trade in Ivory and have all elephants (and other source animals) driven to extinction by poachers in a decade or two.

2) allow trade in "legally harvested" Ivory, but keep the ban on harvesting new Ivory with the likely result being all elephants would be exterminated by poachers in a couple of years.

I don't see a happy ending here.

Ed

Hang convicted poachers!
Severe prison time (or death) for those who "fence" the illegally poached ivory.

Instead of trying to play with demand, make an example of the criminals.

 

[stonepecker]

Amen ED.......Amen!

 

[Smitty37]

There are two possible outcomes that I see:

1) ban all trade in Ivory and have all elephants (and other source animals) driven to extinction by poachers in a decade or two.

2) allow trade in "legally harvested" Ivory, but keep the ban on harvesting new Ivory with the likely result being all elephants would be exterminated by poachers in a couple of years.

I don't see a happy ending here.

Ed

Hang convicted poachers!
Severe prison time (or death) for those who "fence" the illegally poached ivory.

Instead of trying to play with demand, make an example of the criminals.

The problem here is that the people who seem to be most upset by ivory trade are Europeans and North Americans - neither of which are in any position to do a single thing about poachers - they, and we, have no wild elephants and hence, no poachers.

Poaching thrives in areas where there are unstable governments unable to concentrate resources on stopping or catching poachers. In places where there are more stable governments, great strides have been made in slowing poaching.


In my opinion, a lot that has been done in attacking "trade" has made poaching more lucritive by increasing the black market value of ivory. Much like prohibition in this country increased the value of black market wiskey to levels that made the criminals very rich and very willing and able to bribe law enforcement and political folks to 'look the other way'.

 

[ed4copies]

UN "peacekeepers" are of precious little use in other areas they have tried to control.

This task (catching poachers) sounds like a way to make them useful.

 

[stonepecker]

How about Drones.......we fly them everywhere.

A few 'strikes' could make a difference.

 

[Joe S.]

My head hurts now.

 

[Smitty37]

How about Drones.......we fly them everywhere.

A few 'strikes' could make a difference.

Some people might consider drone strikes as acts of war....

 

[Joe S.]

Most people actually.

 

[GRMiller]

I have 3 Ivory Cue Balls which I received from my grandfather. I recently tried to sell them to off set my addiction costs to turning. NO ONE would touch them and I was told why. Okay I have no problem with that but I cannot take them across state lines either. Even though they was purchased in 1946 from the guys who had the pool tables in the bar at that time. The most info I got was from Seth on Hard Core Pawn show. He would love to have them but with these laws they wouldn't touch them.

 

[Smitty37]

UN "peacekeepers" are of precious little use in other areas they have tried to control.

This task (catching poachers) sounds like a way to make them useful.

The problem there is that where there are unstable governments the "head despot/dictator/tyrant" often does not want outside interference and some of those places are land locked making it difficult to supply a peace keeping force.

 

[ed4copies]

If a drone kills a poacher in an area where the government admits to being too weak to fight poachers, are they really likely to consider the killing an attack on their government??

Sounds unlikely!! Especially if we happen to take the time to be invited by the "controlling government", whatever it's condition.

 

[ed4copies]

UN "peacekeepers" are of precious little use in other areas they have tried to control.

This task (catching poachers) sounds like a way to make them useful.

The problem there is that where there are unstable governments the "head despot/dictator/tyrant" often does not want outside interference and some of those places are land locked making it difficult to supply a peace keeping force.

This MAY be as close as we will come to identifying the REAL problem!!

WE think the elephants should be protected. The local population does NOT think it is important.

Perhaps we should put the elephants on a troop plane and drop them off in Washington DC. Then the legislators can keep tabs on them, first hand!!

(Two elephants mating in the middle of I-295--Can you imagine THAT traffic jam!!!)

 

[Crashmph]

UN "peacekeepers" are of precious little use in other areas they have tried to control.

This task (catching poachers) sounds like a way to make them useful.

The problem there is that where there are unstable governments the "head despot/dictator/tyrant" often does not want outside interference and some of those places are land locked making it difficult to supply a peace keeping force.

This MAY be as close as we will come to identifying the REAL problem!!

WE think the elephants should be protected. The local population does NOT think it is important.

Perhaps we should put the elephants on a troop plane and drop them off in Washington DC. Then the legislators can keep tabs on them, first hand!!

(Two elephants mating in the middle of I-295--Can you imagine THAT traffic jam!!!)

I-295 would not be so bad... not if your are talking north bound I-95 on a week day morning just south of the beltway... that would be akin to a 20 care pile up.

 

[Crashmph]

I have to say, we are doing rather well keeping this conversation as non-political as possible.

I see no issues with working with fossils, but brand new ivory, that's a different story.

 

[southernclay]

There are still elephants legally killed in Africa on occasion as well

And Ed all that dung they leave behind, isn't there enough in Washington already? : ) Maybe too political sorry

 

[dexter0606]

I will never understand why some people try to justify using endangered species of Mother Nature's flora or fauna, especially when there are often perfectly good manmade alternatives readily available.
Elephants need their tusks more than we need scrimshawed ivory trinkets.:wink:

Just my perhaps ignorant opinion.....

+ 1

 

[Smitty37]

UN "peacekeepers" are of precious little use in other areas they have tried to control.

This task (catching poachers) sounds like a way to make them useful.

The problem there is that where there are unstable governments the "head despot/dictator/tyrant" often does not want outside interference and some of those places are land locked making it difficult to supply a peace keeping force.

This MAY be as close as we will come to identifying the REAL problem!!

WE think the elephants should be protected. The local population does NOT think it is important.

Perhaps we should put the elephants on a troop plane and drop them off in Washington DC. Then the legislators can keep tabs on them, first hand!!

(Two elephants mating in the middle of I-295--Can you imagine THAT traffic jam!!!)

I-295 would not be so bad... not if your are talking north bound I-95 on a week day morning just south of the beltway... that would be akin to a 20 care pile up.

It is good that you identified which I-295 you are talking about since there are several of them.(and 395s and 495s)

 

[Smitty37]

I have 3 Ivory Cue Balls which I received from my grandfather. I recently tried to sell them to off set my addiction costs to turning. NO ONE would touch them and I was told why. Okay I have no problem with that but I cannot take them across state lines either. Even though they was purchased in 1946 from the guys who had the pool tables in the bar at that time. The most info I got was from Seth on Hard Core Pawn show. He would love to have them but with these laws they wouldn't touch them.

I understand...I have an antique set of dominos that I've owned personally for about 68 years. They were given to me by an Aunt who got them as a child (she was born in 1885) they were made using old ivory piano keys...today it is illegal for me to sell them, or for that matter even give them to one of my kids.