your reply please

[phillywood]

Recently, in a thread which was generated by a very new member in Trades and Giveaways some of the generous members here got taken by sending supplies and kits to this none-true member and we caught on to it. In a large replies to that thread Curly ( IAP member) suggested that we check by going and verifying the need of the next person before we start helping out. would you please vote your opinion as if you are pro or against this idea.

I don't know how this particular story may play out, but I have a suggestion for future requests of this sort. With the large number of members on this forum the next time someone unknown to the membership asks for donations. One of the members living closest to the requester goes to visit them and verify the need. If it is genuine, help will be offered, if not then the forum members good will isn't taken advantage of.

Pete

 

[Daniel]

I voted yes although I am not sure sending someone would always be necessary. I think that some form of verification of the need is only wise and someone paying a visit is about as good as that can get.

 

[Drstrangefart]

I tossed a yes up there. If someone legitimately needs help especially with something that's at least partly recreational, they should be willing to talk to someone in person. If they won't, it's probably a bad idea.

 

[jskeen]

I voted yes, but with a caveat, if somebody wants to go check it out, fine. If not, but the requester can supply some supporting info, that works as well in my book. I'm not suggesting that we ask for a note from the Dr's office, just some pictures of past work, a link to some pictures of items for sale somewhere, a pic of the person in their shop, something like that. I know, none of that is definitive, it could be faked with some effort, but a scam artist is unlikely to make the effort, and a genuine new member would probably be happy to show off something they have done. I suspect that this idea may very well be implemented all by itself, without any need for a rule or whatever, just on the principle of "once bitten, twice shy"

I do not believe that one bad experience will sour this wonderful group on helping those who genuinely need help, or even those who just would like to learn and are interested in becoming part of our little community.

 

[witz1976]

I don't think it is up to the IAP as a whole to see if a person is legit or not simply because we are not donating as a whole.

Kinda goes with the buyer beware warning....giver beware.

*Edit* As a caveat, if the mods want to modify the rules in the trades and giveaways specifying requirements for donations then so be it.

 

[Texatdurango]

Several years ago I attended a local "Bubbasville" meeting where I met my first pen turners from the Dallas/Ft Worth area face to face. At that meeting a turner offered me some blanks for free to practice on since he had no use for them. I opened the box and....... what a mess, the blanks were knarly and twisted and basically useless for anything but fire kindling!

The reason I mention that here is that he bought the blanks from an IAP member who advertised one thing and shipped another and he could never get his money back from the character, who is still a member here and is still selling blanks!

How does this fit in with this story, well, the sad thing is that regardless of how vigilant we are in life, there always has been and always will be those willing to take advantage of others, any which way they can and the internet has just made it so much easier for unscrupulous people to prey on others and believe it or not, regardless of how we see our "family" the IAP has it's share of these people as members.

Rather than sending out a "verification party" to check out new members who post questionable posts, why not just use common sense and think before jumping in with everyone else to welcome a new member and shower them with care packages after their first post.

Don't worry, the truly needy folks will continue to be taken care of!

 

[skiprat]

I voted 'No'

I would neither like to be the person doing the 'inspection' nor the person being inspected.

If I was unfortunate enough to need help from my friends here on IAP, then I like to think that they would now know me well enough by now and not to have to check up on me.

If I hadn't been here long enough, or at least contributed in some way, then I wouldn't deserve any help.

There have been a few one shot con artists here ( remember that dodgy pic of the soil under the house? ) and we still have one guy that only comes here to plead poverty and beg for free stuff. I'd pay him a visit, but he would only get my boot!!
Strange how they all have enough money for a computer with internet connection though. :wink:

 

[Padre]

I voted yes, but also with a caveat. If the asker is a long time member of the IAP, known to us, then no. If a 'newbie' that is posting for the first time, etc., then yes.

 

[snyiper]

I voted no as well but I would think that a person would be more active in the forum than on their first or second post asking for help or donations. If they havent posted at least a couple dozen times asking about stuff then it starts to smell bad for me.

 

[JimB]

This is wrong on so many levels. Who are we to take it upon ourselves to do this? When you donate food or clothing etc to a charity do you ask to meet the family they are giving it to? Is this the way to greet new members? Are you going to ensure you treat everyone the same so we are not accused of discrimination? Who are the members who will have the final say about someone's need? What makes them qualified to make that decision? Since when is someone's need so obvious to the outside world?

My list of questions goes on and on. We don't even do this for people who sell on here.

Then there is a huge liability issue both for the person making the decision and posting it on IAP and for IAP. I don't think Jeff would never aprrove this.

 

[Mark]

I voted No. Shooting from the hip on one bad request, is something I can't support. I wouldn't think a rule of any kind is in order.. A gift is a gift.

IMHO - a required visit is not right. If someone is close and wishes to do that, so be it. It's always nice to meet other turners. I can just imagine the PM's that would be flying around, if the visit couldn't be made until a weekend or at least several days.

A face to face, if convenient, would be nice for all members to feel warm and fuzzy about the request. I try not to inherently distrust anyone. I'd likely sit back and see what rolls out with the request then jump in when/if I was comfortable.. At that point if it goes downhill, well, my bad. Onward and upward.

 

[Akula]

Give from the heart. Expect nothing in return.

Con artist are everyplace. Lazy people even more. We live within our bounds. I have seen here when someone asks, there is usually a very good response. When Kalai posted about the box of wood-pen trade, I jumped at the chance. Kalai took a chance sending me some wood and I returned some pens. Kalai didn't know me and I don't post that much.

My point is don't close your heart if giving is what you want to do. When I can, I give. Have some taken advantage of it, sure. But I won't change because of them.

Maybe better if everyone didn't jump on the bandwagon. Maybe limit to the first few to help and everyone wait for a response. Then proceed with results.

It's a tough call for sure. Some of the boards I'm on, once word gets out someone got some help, then we used to get flooded with needs, donation requests and benefits. We had to slow down because over time people get burned out. People would not help. We ask now that requests be approved by Mods or Site Owners before just posting. This slowed down all the requests and let the members better serve the people in need.

Well, that's about all my 2 cents worth.

Have a great day

 

[Padre]

Jim,

No one has to physically go there, I agree, that would be a huge liability. But I am a volunteer for Labs4Rescue and I do make home visits for those wanting to adopt a lab. It is the right thing to do.

Furthermore, all legitimate 501-C3 charities MUST be audited every year. Almost every major charitable organization is audited financially as well as their inventory. That way people feel fairly safe that their money/goods go to where they are told they are going. But what happens to those "charities" that keep 70% or more of the monies/goods they collect? They become fodder for the newspapers and quickly go out of business or run and assume a different name.

Who are we? We are a voluntary group of pen makers who spend their money on kits, blanks and other items in order to pursue our hobby/business. I think if we give away our kits, blanks, tools and other things we should be able to have a reasonable assurance that what we are giving is: a. going to a worthy cause or individual and b. going to an organization/individual who actually is in need. Do you really think that is too much to ask?

What if the Marines took the "Toys for Tots" merchandise and sold them to make money for themselves? What if the pens we make for "turning for troops" end up on Ebay, sold by the person 'organizing' the event? Or how about donating for Cody on Penefit.org and having the proceeds go to the person organizing the event to support an abuse habit? Now, NONE OF THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED OR WILL HAPPEN, but what if they did? Would you then feel differently about someone who comes on here, posts 1 or 2 posts, asks for 'help,' is sent hundreds of dollars of items, then disappears and may be a fraud?

Just wondering.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Rather than sending out a "verification party" to check out new members who post questionable posts, why not just use common sense and think before jumping in with everyone else to welcome a new member and shower them with care packages after their first post.

Don't worry, the truly needy folks will continue to be taken care of!

Bingo, Duh and whatever other noise you want to make. There is a huge difference between a newbie coming on asking for some help and someone that we have all known for years on here that needs some help.

Just use some common sense. If you want to send to a newbie, then do so smartly. Send a small amount and because you want to. Honestly there are times that we get more out of giving than the recipient does.

Also, just because you did not get a thank you doesn't always mean something bad other than manners. Most of us on here are from the "Greatest Generation" :tongue: Many are war babies from WWII. These are the folks that have top notch manners and hearts. Somewhere along the line that didn't always pass down the the Gen X and Gen Y.

 

[Simplex]

I think that people need to use their judgment. If you are comfortable donating, do it. If not, don't. IAP does not need to get into policing donation requests.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

The IAP cannot be verifying and legitimzing requests for help. This is exactly why there's no longer the fledgling 'persons in need' forum, which was removed a long while back.

If you wish to donate to a person in need, use your judgement and decide for yourself. The IAP does not condone or verify any donation requests.

In a practical sense, those of you that live in cities don't seem to realize that we're international, and include rural and remote turners in our midst, so 'verification parties' are not at all practical or advised. Donations are certainly caveat empire.

Maybe consider donating to a registered charity instead, and help people out that way...

 

[wolftat]

No one is being forced to donate anything, if you don't want to donate, then don't. If the person asking is a scam artist, they will get caught up in their own actions sooner or later, maybe by the wrong person at the wrong time.

Over the summer I had a young man come to my door selling magazines in order "to support himself while he went through Marine boot camp" he told my wife. She asked him to wait a minute and asked me to come to the door and talk to this person. He actually had the nerve to show me a obviously fake military ID that was in terrible shape from "the stress it took while in combat". I tore up his ID and advised him if I ever found out he was trying this again I would beat him silly. I also took all the checks he had and his list of customers and called them up to let them know they were scammed. The local police were also notified and after combing the area, they could not find him. He just picked the wrong door to knock on and got caught. (for those of you that don't know me, look at my profile and you will understand how I knew he was a fake).

Just use your own judgement and if you are in doubt, stay away from it.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Any OFFICIAL IAP SANCTIONED fundraiser or benefit will be properly vetted. All others are allowed simply as a courtesy to our members and as such, are the full responsibility of the member doing the asking as well as the member doing the donating. ALL requests that are suspected of being fraudulent will be removed as necessary. IAP had NOTHING to do with requests for help just as we have nothing to do with stuff for sale.

There has not been an official IAP sanctioned fundraiser or benefit in a long time. Even the Penefit.org benefit was not an Official IAP endeavor but was fully vetted. Just use your best judgment and if it smells bad, it is probably rotten!

 

[witz1976]

Rather than sending out a "verification party" to check out new members who post questionable posts, why not just use common sense and think before jumping in with everyone else to welcome a new member and shower them with care packages after their first post.

Don't worry, the truly needy folks will continue to be taken care of!

Bingo, Duh and whatever other noise you want to make. There is a huge difference between a newbie coming on asking for some help and someone that we have all known for years on here that needs some help.

Just use some common sense. If you want to send to a newbie, then do so smartly. Send a small amount and because you want to. Honestly there are times that we get more out of giving than the recipient does.

Also, just because you did not get a thank you doesn't always mean something bad other than manners. Most of us on here are from the "Greatest Generation" :tongue: Many are war babies from WWII. These are the folks that have top notch manners and hearts. Somewhere along the line that didn't always pass down the the Gen X and Gen Y.

I am glad you said it didn't always get passed down...I am a Gen Xer and I try to uphold the manners I was taught from my grandparents. That being said it really depresses me when I go, well, anywhere people are becoming more and more rude everyday:frown:

 

[Hess]

I voted NO if I read something and it brings up a flag that cool. Are next time we members who felt is was odd should ba able to bring it up with not fear of being put down my any other member.

You cant have a cop squad thats not right . You read what they say if you cant see the problems and are not willing to listen to others who may see an issue, Well thats the old shame on me story.

I think there were some that saw this coming that did not post a warning in case they were wrong or getting Flamed

Next time simply slow down a bit feel them out make them get to know us some, look at the number of posts. If they dont want to provide or provide miss info like this one than maybe it will throw flags .

 

[Donnie Kennedy]

What puzzled me about the thread that spurred this one is that someone from the ether just popped in and asked for "stuff" right off the bat and (what seemed like a lot to me) people jumped at the opportunity. It speaks volumes about the character and good will of the folks that pitched in to help, but maybe just a little individual discretion would be more effective than a verification process. Besides, how can you verify the needs of virtually anonymous people anyway?

And just for the record, I have sent things (bowl blanks and videos mostly) to people that I interact with at online forums, so I am not one opposed to helping a brother or sister out when I can.

 

[bobjackson]

I have helped people starting out who can't afford to buy wood or blanks because I want to. I would help a disabled person who can't afford wood or blanks for the same reason. I don't knoe the level of their need or the legitamacy of their disability, but by the same token I'm only sending them a few dollars worth of stuff. Their disablilty also may not be real evident. I've seen many people with handicapped stickers on their car that look ok to me. Iwill still occasionally send stuff to pelple that ask nicely because I want to, not because I've verified their need. I will alaso say that most people I've sent stuff to have PMd me back with a thank you.

 

[Toni]

You would have one hell of a time checking on someone such as myself living in New Zealand..Remember international site

 

[KenBrasier]

If someone expresses a need and I feel comfortable with their request, I'll respond by sending what I can. I have probably been "had" in the past, but my ability to help someone in need, overrides any loses I may have had. That being said, I'm not against "checking" to ascertain that persons needs.

 

[Timbo]

My vote would be no. I see too many issues (most already stated) with trying to make a policy/process to control the possibility of someone taking advantage of our generosity. It's up to each of us to make our own decision, based on our own judgment.
That said, I see no problem with the IAP helping out by posting a set of "member developed" guidelines (NOT rules) to help folks in making a decision weather to send donations or not. Basically, a "what to look out for", or "what questions you might want to ask" list. Nothing exhaustive is needed, I'm sure our membership could come up with a very adequate 10 point list. No one is required to use it, but it'll be there to reference if one wishes to use it.

 

[RDH79]

If a member lives close and would like to meet them then thats up to them.
I have watched when someone asks for help alot of people respond. i have a couple times and received a nice Thank You note. I think just sending a few things would be enough to start out. It will give them something to do and see if they really like to turn pens. If someone turns a couple pens and is able sell them then the money from the sale should buy them more kits or wood. Not cigarettes or beer.

 

[bking0217]

I can't vote one way or the other. I, myself, have asked for help in the past but my post count was almost 100 when I did. I think we all learned a valuable lesson with Tina. Be wary of new members with their hand out in their first post.

 

[its_virgil]

I do all of the official checking when traveling to New Zealand or Australia is involved.....go ahead and just ask for a donation!
Do a good turn daily!
Don

I didn't vote (and don't uaually vote in polls) but I think I will start a poll to put out feelers and test the waters to see if we want to shut dowm the poll forum.

You would have one hell of a time checking on someone such as myself living in New Zealand..Remember international site

 

[ThomJ]

Let your gut be your guide. If you donate to someone, that alone, whether you got bit or not should give you a good feeling glow

 

[soligen]

Any charity that gives to those in need has some sort of verification process. Now, the IAP is not a charity, but if someone in need asks for help, then I dont think they should have a problem validating it - may not take an in person visit, and I preach caution to my kits about meetings/person info to people in the internet in general, but some warm fuzzy that it is legit I think is in order.

I declined to vote - I need more than a first post to send something, but an in person visit may be too much.

 

[randyrls]

My idea is not to inspect, but to visit the person and help them to start out right. There is nothing like being there and helping someone to start on the right foot.

 

[phillywood]

wholly smoke, I didn't even expect this kind of responses. First of all I didn't mean to insult anyone. And, by laws we can not ask someone specific Qsn.s about their disability. those of us who are disabled we know that is against ADA laws. My main concern was if we don't check this on a new person that comes and asks for this kind of help on the first post and then say that she was selling at the shows. Well, it didn't sound that impressive.
I am just proposing that we be careful, so when a long time member who has been active and need help then they can step forward and ask for it. And, we should have in our resources to help instead of getting burned out and not having anything available for our good friends who may need our help.
I as well as very many others are on disability, but never we have asked for that kind of drastic request.

 

[phillywood]

My idea is not to inspect, but to visit the person and help them to start out right. There is nothing like being there and helping someone to start on the right foot.

Randy thanks for your suggestion, I am not on my good writing skill today that's exactly what I wanted to say.
You said it right. Today was one of those typical Mondays for me.

 

[LEAP]

I voted no, If I send a gift to someone it is because I am fortunate enough to be able to do so. If occasionally someone is less than honest, and it has happened to me, I hope that it is out balanced by those who actually do need a little help. If I can help a few people who really need it then it was worth the effort.

 

[mywoodshopca]

Personally, I had a bad feeling from that thread. I dont mind helping out turners as needed, but it seemed weird to have his/her/its first two posts asking for blanks and kits.

I think people need to use a little personal discretion as to sending packages off to brand new members like that one.

Perhaps its all on the up & up, but maybe not. We will really never know unless that user comes back and starts posting often and showing off work.

Heck, after reading that thread, maybe we should be sending a few care packages off to their mailman. Bad enough with the extra workload due to holiday mail, this poor mailperson got swamped with heavy packages of wood and metals :biggrin:

 

[el_d]

I got no problem handing out a few blanks of zebrawood to any stranger. The more I know/like them the more I will give when possible.

I give FOR myself, what happens afterwards is on the recipients head.

 

[trickydick]

I vote no. Feel good about giving to others. There are still significntly less cheaters than actual folks in need.

 

[mtgrizzly52]

I voted shortly after this post was put up and after some real soul searching, had to vote no. I can see where some people can feel angry, take advantage of or even hurt, when a small minority attempts to take advantage of the generous and caring spirit of the members of this fantastic forum and I guess I can say, this wonderful family.

In spite of that, I still would hate to have to wonder any time someone asked for a favor or some help if they were legit, or trying to take advantage of me. I'd rather give freely of what I have and take a small chance then be suspicious of every request that is posted. Maybe that's a Pollyanna approach to life, but that is how my value system is built and I guess I'll take the chance, but I don't want people to be subjected to inspection because they have the courage to ask for a hand up; legit or not.

Rick (mtgrizzly52)

 

[phillywood]

I voted yes, but with a caveat, if somebody wants to go check it out, fine. If not, but the requester can supply some supporting info, that works as well in my book. I'm not suggesting that we ask for a note from the Dr's office, just some pictures of past work, a link to some pictures of items for sale somewhere, a pic of the person in their shop, something like that. I know, none of that is definitive, it could be faked with some effort, but a scam artist is unlikely to make the effort, and a genuine new member would probably be happy to show off something they have done. I suspect that this idea may very well be implemented all by itself, without any need for a rule or whatever, just on the principle of "once bitten, twice shy"

I do not believe that one bad experience will sour this wonderful group on helping those who genuinely need help, or even those who just would like to learn and are interested in becoming part of our little community.

James. I am hoping that the main message was not lost here,since the whole purpose is to eliminate the scam request.
I know that many like to give without any attachments which I admire. I commend those who do it, and have no problem with that. I just wanted to send the message out there that this family's giving spirit is not to be taken advantage of.

 

[phillywood]

I don't think it is up to the IAP as a whole to see if a person is legit or not simply because we are not donating as a whole.

Kinda goes with the buyer beware warning....giver beware.

*Edit* As a caveat, if the mods want to modify the rules in the trades and giveaways specifying requirements for donations then so be it.

Dan, I am with giving, and I don't think that Mods need to modify any rules. it's just our great giving spirit that wants to give and those who are indeed in need of it should benefit, not the scams.